Lighting & Lumens

Lamp Color One of the most important attributes of metal halide lamps is their ability to provide crisp white light in a variety of different color temperatures to accommodate users’ needs. High pressure sodium and mercury lamps are very limited in the color and quality of light they produce. The colors they generate are often unpleasing or inappropriate for many applications. This helps explain why the use of metal halide lamps continues to increase dramatically each year around the world.
The color of light sources is a complicated relationship deriving from a number of different factors, including Correlated Color Temperature (CCT), Color Rendering Index (CRI), and spectral distribution.
Correlated Color Temperature (CCT)
The first factor in choosing a lamp color is to determine the associated Kelvin temperature. For example, if a retail store wants accent lighting to blend in with warm halogen incandescent lamps, they may choose a Venture MP 100/C/U/27K which has a Correlated Color Temperature (CCT) of 2700 Kelvin. This "temperature" is not simply an arbitrary number, but is correlation with actual thermal temperature. Anyone who has seen a piece of metal being heated will notice that as the temperature of the metal increases, the color of the metal changes. This is a rough explanation
of how the CCT of high intensity discharge and fluorescent light sources is measured. CCT is defined as the absolute temperature (expressed in degrees Kelvin) of a theoretical black body whose chromaticity most nearly resembles that of its light source. From this standpoint, the CCT rating is an indication of how "warm" or "cool" the light source is. The higher the number, the cooler the lamp. The lower the number, the warmer the lamp.
Spectral Energy Distribution
When we look at a light source, we "perceive" a single color. In reality, we are seeing literally thousands of colors and hues of colors made up of a combination of different wavelengths of light. These different combinations, and the relative intensity of various wavelengths of light, can be used to determine a light source’s CRI.
Color Rendering Index (CRI)
In general, CRI is an indication of a lamp’s ability to show individual colors relative to a standard. This value is derived from a comparison of the lamp’s spectral distribution compared to a standard (typically a black body) at the same color temperature.
Incandescent lighting is the only light source that follows a true black body curve. Other sources (i.e. metal halide) are rated with a Correlated Color Temperature (CCT). The CCT, however, does not provide information on the quality of color. For this, a Color Rendering Index (CRI) is also necessary. In general, the higher the CRI rating of a lamp, the better different colors will show. However, this guideline can be misleading with certain lamp types because a high CRI sometimes makes different colors easier to distinguish, but standard colors may appear different than they actually are. The following is an example of how the color "white" may appear under different light sources.
Color Shift and Variation
Different colors are achieved in metal halide lamps by using different arc tube designs and by introducing various chemicals inside of the lamp arc tube. New lamps need to have these chemicals "burn-in" for approximately 100 hours before they reach their optimum color and light level. This is why new lamps can sometimes be unstable or vary in color.
As metal halide lamps age, chemical changes occur in the lamp causing shifts in the chromaticity of the lamps. Different lamp designs shift in different ways, and different lamps from the same group may shift in different amounts. Generally, over economic life lamps will shift 200K to 300K in color temperature. After economic life, a lamp may change as much as 500K to 600K. As a group of lamps ages together in a facility, the lamps will generally shift at the same rate causing very little color variation from lamp to lamp. However, if new replacement lamps are introduced into the group of lamps, color differences may be more noticeable, because the new lamps have not aged and shifted with the remainder of lamps. This is just one of the reasons why many users of metal halide lamps prefer to group relamp as opposed to spot relamping. There are many other advantages to group relamping as outlined in the section on group relamping.
The Different Colors
The advantage of the many colors of lamps offered by Venture Lighting is that they can be used in virtually any lighting application. Outlined below are the various colors currently available:

So you cant answer a simple question just goes to show you have turds for brains and have such a closed mind and no idea of anything apart from what you been told without doing any research yourself.

*Veg stage needs 2500 lumens per square foot at least.

*Veg stage needs light in the blue spectrum, right?

so if you have the intelligence to read which i am doubting at the moment

or if your a dumbass (most likely) you can just look at the colour chart.

now you see that metal halides have a colour temp between 4000k and 5500k, which is quite short of the blue spectrum of a 6400k cfl

ok so a 400w metal halide can put out far more lumens than a cfl that isnt in question but if they only need 2500 lumens per square foot and a 250w cfl puts out 20,000 lumens in a great spectrum for them and you can have them at 3 inches away from the tops so can cover a decent area taking into account the law of diminishing light

So if a cfl can veg a plant and it doesnt stretch at all cus they are recieving enough lumens and they are putting out a better spectrum for them how can you say that cfls are shit you have no proof and no backing for your arguement

Now what i suggest you do is get your rucksack together and all your books give your mom a kiss on the cheek and head off to school young one, you have much learning ahead.

That is all

Chinga_2_Madre said:

You bought the bullshiit fuzzy math presented....hahhahahahah.....sucker.

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No actually since it is incomplete and i've finished reading it i've been researching. The math wouldnt be fuzzy if you actually paid any attention to the observations of others instead of forcing your ideals on everyone and then having no numbers no research and no reason as to why it should be better.

Why is it better? Because "HighTimes" says so? Because everyone who makes videos and guides tend to have enough free money to spend on pot for HID lighting or live in a place where you can. (cold climate. HID sticks out like michael jackson at disneyland.)

Godkas said:

No actually since it is incomplete and i've finished reading it i've been researching. The math wouldnt be fuzzy if you actually paid any attention to the observations of others instead of forcing your ideals on everyone and then having to numbers no research and no reason as to why it should be better.

Why is it better? Because "HighTimes" says so? Because everyone who makes videos and guides tend to have enough free money to spend on pot for HID lighting or live in a place where you can. (cold climate. HID sticks out like michael jackson at disneyland.)

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Because I say so and High Times backs it up:

hightimes.com grow

Emily's Fluorescents
1999-12-03 >> Q&A DB Home

Q: Hello Kyle,I just bought an Emily's Garden Hydroponic System. I am completely new to growing. I have two questions: 1) Can I use fluorescent grow lights with the system and should I use 24" or 48" bulbs?2) Would I have good results in a walk-in closet?

-- Cheech Jr.

A: Dear Cheech, Emily's Garden is a small-scale garden that should require no more than 6-8 square feet of floor space, and 3-4 feet vertical space. If you are using fluorescents you will need to keep your expectations small to coincide with wattage. If fluorescents are going to be used, go with the 24" tubes, rig 6-8 tubes as close together as possible, then keep them a constant 2 inches from your plants so they won't stretch. Before you do anything, think about this: With fluorescents you can count on a yield of around two OZs, and if you purchase a 400-watt you will easily double that estimate. Even a 150-watt HID will give you a 50% greater return in yield over using fluorescents only.

-- answered by Kyle on 1999-12-03

I can cut and paste my arguments just as well as anyone else. I know what the fuck I am talking about because I have been there and done that more times than I can remember. You can listen and take what I tell you to the bank any day of the fucking week. I know my shit that well and if anyone thinks they know more, I would like to see that mother fucker post in this forum so I can learn. What I am reading is a bunch of shit and nothing which resembles what growers need to know as rules of thumb.

Godkas said:

HID sticks out like michael jackson at disneyland.)

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I like that one alot!

You cant back your arguement up with any kind of real fact, just face it you lost the arguement, shouting and swearing more and more just makes you look more desperate.

And there we have it. OK continue with the thread get back on topic because I want resolution after all this. I bet I can make my box flower like hell if I put 10,000 lumens in it. And yes BTW red spectrum.

nongreenthumb said:

You cant back your arguement up with any kind of real fact, just face it you lost the arguement, shouting and swearing more and more just makes you look more desperate.

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Here is more fact to choke on.

hightimes.com grow

Using Fluorescents for Bud Stage
1998-03-17 >> Q&A DB Home

Q: Hello,I am wondering about bud stage under fluorescent lighting. I have sunny warm conditions almost year round, and can start the green stage just about any time of year, but if I wish to decrease the amount of light I need a controlled environment. Which brings me to my question. Can I use fluorescent grow lights to induce buds, and get a reasonable yield from my plants in a 6'x3'space?

-- Bud T

A: Bud,You have 18 square feet of growing space which will require between 500 and 600 watts of lighting to promote good flowering. It can be done with fluorescents but it will mean a large bank of lighting fixtures. Standard four foot fluorescent fixtures produce 80 watts each, which means you'll need seven of them to properly illuminate the room. You'd be better of buying a single 400-watt hps and adding two 4-foot fluorescents, or a single 600-watt HPS fixture. It will be easier to set up and maintain, and in the long run cheaper. Fluorescent bulbs decrease in intensity quickly and must be replaced every 6 months or so. HID bulbs need only be replaced once a year. Replacing 14 fluorescent bulbs every 6 months will eventually become more costly than running a single HPS.


Funny the sales man never tell you this fucking fact.....hmmmm...suckers

Chinga_2_Madre said:

Here is more fact to choke on.

hightimes.com grow

Using Fluorescents for Bud Stage
1998-03-17 >> Q&A DB Home

Q: Hello,I am wondering about bud stage under fluorescent lighting. I have sunny warm conditions almost year round, and can start the green stage just about any time of year, but if I wish to decrease the amount of light I need a controlled environment. Which brings me to my question. Can I use fluorescent grow lights to induce buds, and get a reasonable yield from my plants in a 6'x3'space?

-- Bud T

A: Bud,You have 18 square feet of growing space which will require between 500 and 600 watts of lighting to promote good flowering. It can be done with fluorescents but it will mean a large bank of lighting fixtures. Standard four foot fluorescent fixtures produce 80 watts each, which means you'll need seven of them to properly illuminate the room. You'd be better of buying a single 400-watt hps and adding two 4-foot fluorescents, or a single 600-watt HPS fixture. It will be easier to set up and maintain, and in the long run cheaper. Fluorescent bulbs decrease in intensity quickly and must be replaced every 6 months or so. HID bulbs need only be replaced once a year. Replacing 14 fluorescent bulbs every 6 months will eventually become more costly than running a single HPS.


Funny the sales man never tell you this fucking fact.....hmmmm...suckers

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Show me the point at which i say that i use cfls for flowering

Here are some more fact.

I guess the next thing someone will say is HIGHTIMES does not know shit and you fuckers know better.

hightimes.com grow

Q&A WITH THE HIGH TIMES CULTIVATION EXPERTS
High Pressure Sodium vs. Metal Halide
1997-11-05 >> Q&A DB Home

Q: I need to know which is best for indoor growing and which is best for flowering: metal-halide or high-pressure sodium lights.

-- D. MAD

A: Both metal halide (MH) and high-pressure sodium (HPS lamps) work well indoors, though HPS lights work a little better for the flowering phase. Some growers chose to start with metal halides, and move to HPS during flowering using conversion bulbs specially designed to work in MH fixtures.

Notice how they asked for the BEST and CFL's are not mentioned ?

SUCKERS AGAIN ??? YOU BETCHA'

Chinga_2_Madre said:

Here is more fact to choke on.

hightimes.com grow

Using Fluorescents for Bud Stage
1998-03-17 >> Q&A DB Home

Q: Hello,I am wondering about bud stage under fluorescent lighting. I have sunny warm conditions almost year round, and can start the green stage just about any time of year, but if I wish to decrease the amount of light I need a controlled environment. Which brings me to my question. Can I use fluorescent grow lights to induce buds, and get a reasonable yield from my plants in a 6'x3'space?

-- Bud T

A: Bud,You have 18 square feet of growing space which will require between 500 and 600 watts of lighting to promote good flowering. It can be done with fluorescents but it will mean a large bank of lighting fixtures. Standard four foot fluorescent fixtures produce 80 watts each, which means you'll need seven of them to properly illuminate the room. You'd be better of buying a single 400-watt hps and adding two 4-foot fluorescents, or a single 600-watt HPS fixture. It will be easier to set up and maintain, and in the long run cheaper. Fluorescent bulbs decrease in intensity quickly and must be replaced every 6 months or so. HID bulbs need only be replaced once a year. Replacing 14 fluorescent bulbs every 6 months will eventually become more costly than running a single HPS.


Funny the sales man never tell you this fucking fact.....hmmmm...suckers

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Dude. I use CFL's in my house for lighting. Some of my lights (including the porch light) are on 24/7 and have been functioning for over a year now with no discernable degredation. Find a better source of information. Hightimes sold out long ago.

I am in now way advocating anything except to clarify a point, I think the info Chinga_2_Madre posted is old or outdated, the info I have states:
T5 bulbs have an outstanding 24,000 hour life expectancy (one year is 8,760 hours) and unlike sodium or halide bulbs, a T5 loses very little of its’ light output over its’ life.
I got that from everyones trusted favorite...
High Tech Garden Supply

nongreenthumb said:

Show me the point at which i say that i use cfls for flowering

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Whether it be vegging or flowering the fucking math went right over your head......nevermind.....you are part of the permanent slow blinkers society now.

videoman40 said:

I am in now way advocating anything except to clarify a point, I think the info Chinga_2_Madre posted is old or outdated, the info I have states:
T5 bulbs have an outstanding 24,000 hour life expectancy (one year is 8,760 hours) and unlike sodium or halide bulbs, a T5 loses very little of its’ light output over its’ life.
I got that from everyones trusted favorite...
High Tech Garden Supply

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The wheel has not been re-invented kimosabee. The point HIGHTIMES is making is that this shit was figured out a long time ago and nothing has changed other than ALL bulbs got better....including HID.

Chinga_2_Madre said:

Whether it be vegging or flowering the fucking math went right over your head......nevermind.....you are part of the permanent slow blinkers society now.

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You just make me laugh thats all, think what you want believe what you want.

My lighting setup consists of
1 x 250w cfl @ 20000 lumens
1 x 400w metal halide @ 40,000
3 x 600w high pressure sodium @ 92,000 lumens

think what you want

videoman40 said:

I am in now way advocating anything except to clarify a point, I think the info Chinga_2_Madre posted is old or outdated, the info I have states:
T5 bulbs have an outstanding 24,000 hour life expectancy (one year is 8,760 hours) and unlike sodium or halide bulbs, a T5 loses very little of its’ light output over its’ life.
I got that from everyones trusted favorite...
High Tech Garden Supply

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A Hortilux EYE is rated at 24,000 hours as well. It costs me around $75.00 to replace.

A T-5 bulb runs anywhere from $15.00 to $30.00 so that is $75.00-$150.00 and are harder to find.

I rather replace one better HID bulb versus 5 lesser quality grow bulbs and they do produce lesser quality buds.

If one T-5 bulb takes a shit in the middle of its life cycle, then you need to keep track of when it was replaced to get the most out of it and replace it when needed. That is a juggling act of mental masterbation not needed and created by vendors.

nongreenthumb said:

You just make me laugh thats all, think what you want believe what you want.

My lighting setup consists of
1 x 250w cfl @ 20000 lumens
1 x 400w metal halide @ 40,000
3 x 600w high pressure sodium @ 92,000 lumens

think what you want

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I will think what I want at all time. I do not need you to let me know or to give me any green lights.

You missed the point of what I was trying to make but fuck it. Re-read what I posted. I was not critiquing your particular set up so get that shit straight and take your chest puffing elsewhere.

Now, a majority of your set-up lighting is HID and that is good and you have added CFL's as an added bonus. There is nothing wrong with that set-up because you are squeezing the most lumens you can get with the proper lighting in the mix. You are probably experiencing heat battles otherwise you would have added more HID instead of CFL's.

2/3 of your wattage should be HPS and 1/3 MH for optimal grow results but if you do not have light rails, you are wasting your basic set-up and are not efficient.

There. Now that is what I think of your set-up.

When are you adding CO2 ?

When you do, then ask me anything because again, I have been at this shit a long time and I do not pull any punches. Posters who do not like it better get use to it or I get banned or some shit.

i wasnt at any point looking for a review, i know what works for me and i use it and have shown that on here all you have shown on here is how much of a dick you are, if your the expert grower why not put your money where your mouth is and show off some pics

By the way chinga. you are wasting power and lumens with HID. just saying.

videoman40 said:

I am in now way advocating anything except to clarify a point, I think the info Chinga_2_Madre posted is old or outdated, the info I have states:
T5 bulbs have an outstanding 24,000 hour life expectancy (one year is 8,760 hours) and unlike sodium or halide bulbs, a T5 loses very little of its’ light output over its’ life.
I got that from everyones trusted favorite...
High Tech Garden Supply

Click to expand...

The T-5 with 6 bulbs produces 30,000 lumens and the Hortilux produces 144,000 lumens.

More is better.

Do not believe the sales people selling and having the kids under their spell that CFL's are the shit.