Lighting & Lumens

MajoR_TokE said:

Babygro i don't know where you live but where i live i can go to the local hyrdo store(within 5 city blocks from me). Buy a 400w HPS ballast kit with a hortilux bulb for less then $150 canadian, i don't consider this expensive.

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It's not expensive to purchase - it's expensive to run! As I said in my earlier post, the Hortilux bulb only outputs about 50% of it's lumens in the PAR spectrum plants can use that means you're paying for 50% operating costs you're not using. Factor in how far the bulb has to be used from the plant tops and you lose even more lumens, at 2 feet away a Hortilux bulb outputting 100,000 lumens at 1 foot of which only 50,000 are in the PAR spectrum reduces to 12,500 lumens at the plant tops.

So you're paying for a 100,000 lumen HPS system and only actually using 12,500 of those lumens, that's 87,500 lumens you're paying for you're not actually using!

Now, do you think that's very cost effective?

Babygro do you have a link that shows light efficiencies

MajoR_TokE said:

Babygro do you have a link that shows light efficiencies

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I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by 'light efficiencies'. All the information I've given to you in this thread has come from my knowledge and understanding of the subject matter, having done an awful lot of research and reading from a lot of different sources. I don't know of any one source that will give you the information you're seeking.

Take a look at the spectogram of the light spectrums the Eye hortilux HPS 1000w bulb (which came from the Hortilux website) I posted earlier, and work out how much of the lumen output of that bulb is actually outputted in the nanometer wavelengths that plants actually use. You can see just by looking at it that only about 50% of the lumen output from that bulb is within the plant useable light spectrums.

Regarding 'inverse square law' of light intensity, just do a google search on it.

ok - my opinion.

First I have to agree with Babygro on his opinion. I invested in my 200W envirolite for my small grow and it's giving me the results i was hoping for. I invested in this light because of certain issues like running costs and also the cost to set up as well as other hazards like exploding bulbs if you get them wet etc, high heat outputs and police helicopters etc...

However, if I had the time and money and was doing a bigger grow, then i would most definitely have gone for HPS as Toke says, they seem certainly more capable of producing top quality buds in a good time frame and are capable of dealing with big grows and the lumen output is considerably higher than that of my little envirolite.

That said. I love my light and my two little plants so far are doing good. They're really compact and bushy and i'm smiling so far!

Hope that settles this!!!

Trust me to mediate!

I have a problem with this statement of yours..."It's not hard to see that by using 2 x 200w Envirolites positioned close to the tops of plants can produce a lumen output of around 36,000 lumens, which compares very well to that of a standard 400w HPS or HID system outputting 50,000 lumens but having to be positioned 2 feet away from the tops of the plants. Not only do the 2 200w Envirolites provide a similar lumen output to the 400w hps (when distance is factored in) they're also cheaper to run and produce far less heat output."
I have a 400watt hps which displaces 53000 lumens, it is placed about one foot away from the tops, and I dont see how 36000 lumens can even compare.

Great stuff, Babygro. I knew about everything you said regarding distances and so on. And I'm glad you used the hortilux chart because that lamp is supposed to be best for PAR. But what is the PAR lumen amount for the Envirolight?

And when talking about CFLs, most guys are using those 20w and 40w CFLs that are used to replace a reading lamp. You are talking about a specialty bulb, used just for indoor growing. The best thing about HID is the high intensity. Even tho the lamp is a couple of feet above, the reflectors concentrate the light, and a 400w will light a 4 foot plant to the bottom. Will 2 200w Envirolights just over the top do that?

I'm setting up a new grow, and these lights will definitely be a part of it.

potroast said:

Great stuff, Babygro. I knew about everything you said regarding distances and so on. And I'm glad you used the hortilux chart because that lamp is supposed to be best for PAR. But what is the PAR lumen amount for the Envirolight?

And when talking about CFLs, most guys are using those 20w and 40w CFLs that are used to replace a reading lamp. You are talking about a specialty bulb, used just for indoor growing. The best thing about HID is the high intensity. Even tho the lamp is a couple of feet above, the reflectors concentrate the light, and a 400w will light a 4 foot plant to the bottom. Will 2 200w Envirolights just over the top do that?

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I wish he would answer this question.. I do know that light intensity from CFL's will diminish greatly at only a couple inches.

How much would it cost to go out and buy 2 x 200w cfls/envirolite plus reflector to set up these two lights how would the cost compare to being able to buy a brand new 600w grolux hps system.

I got my 600w sylvania grolux plus reflector plus ballast for just 69.99.

I get 92,000 lumens from the sylvania grolux. At every point ive looked at increasing the number of lighting systems, I look at enviros as an alternative, but then when the cost has been added up and i compare the difference I always end up getting another hid.

nice give a link for the bulb mate!

If you shut off the light when you spray you're plant it wont blow up right? and is there eny chance they will blow up without getting water on them? cause i cant risk fire in my rents house...

"Cool whites" "warm whites..." I encourage veryone to read the side of the bulb. If the color in kelvin is not listed, buy another bulb. You want 6500k for veg and 2700k for flowring, or as close to each as possible.

Thanks alot bear

wow babygro you are a wealth of knowledge, Im glad I found and joined this site because this is where I learned the most, thanks everyone for all youre helpful info, about ready to apply everything I learned from here on my first grow and will submit pics when Im setup.

MajoR_TokE said:

I wish he would answer this question.. I do know that light intensity from CFL's will diminish greatly at only a couple inches.

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I can answer that question with great ease.

You're talking rubbish.

I've already pointed out to you the inverse square law of light intensity - Light intensity = Light output divided by distance squared. What part of that formula do you 1) Not understand 2) Think only applies to certain lights of your choosing?

ALL lights are subject to the inverse square law, whether they're HPS, MH, Mercury Vapor, Halogen, incandescent, flourescent, compact flourescent, candle or whatever - the principle of dimishing light remains EXACTLY THE SAME!

So how can you say the light intensity of CFL's will diminish greatly at only a couple of inches? It's complete bollocks mate. The light intensity of CFL's will diminish at exactly the same rate as a HPS or MH system will diminish.

Now if people are stupid enough to think that a 20w CFL outputting 1200 lumens is sufficient to flower a plant with, then they deserve whatever results they end up with. There's no substitute for understanding how much light a plant needs at every stage of it's growth and understanding how your lights will achieve that - I keep pointing out what those light requirements are and people keep ignoring it.

I've tried to educate people here about light, how much plants need, how you calculate how much to give them and all I get is people like you coming out with stupid statements like the one above - which only serves to confuse people and not educate them.

Thanks babygro for all the help. I know that you know your stuff so don't worry about what people think that just don't get it

Mate... what can I say?

You saved my plants with your knowledge when i needed help. Your lighting comments in my opinion are totally 100% justified.

Toke? You seem like you know your stuff too but I think you need to step back and way up exactly what it is that Baby is saying = it makes perfect sense!!

My 200W envirolites rule for cost effectiveness over time... and the results are now coming in!

I know I'm a late-comer here but I also have done a significant ammount of research on pros-and-cons of various system and systems - This thread, in fact, has cleared a LOT of stuff up for me on differences of PAR vs Lumens, distance considerations, power consumptrion vs intensity vs heat, etc.
It is refreshing to see a spirited debate on questions that effect us all, I wish there were more on this board like babygrow and Maj. Toke who could weigh in on this with more concrete data, analysis and some kind of intellegent interpretations of such.

What seems to be missing in my opionion, in this particular debate, the crippling key of missing information is that we simply do not have enough data on the Envirolights. These CFLs are obviously different than other CFLs and HO T5s. I have done some research of my own on them and not found too much info out there on the web about them, it even seems difficult to find them in the US. But exactly HOW are these envirolights different?

One factor I would like to point out is the simple law of energy conversion - a 400w HPS bulb that generates a lot of heat must be burning off a lot of those watts in generating that heat; if 2 200w enviros are pulling the same amount of power but generating far less heat, that wattage energy must be being converted to light, right? Of course that does not mean it is the right KIND of light, spectrum, color, PAR and Lumens, etc...

Does anyone have an hard data on the envirolights, similar to the data we DO have on HID lights?

+rep for babygro

nongreenthumb said:

I get 92,000 lumens from the sylvania grolux. At every point ive looked at increasing the number of lighting systems, I look at enviros as an alternative, but then when the cost has been added up and i compare the difference I always end up getting another hid.

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I said it earlier, so I guess I'll have to say it again, it's not the purchase price you should be looking at it's the running costs of the two systems that's where the major difference is - and it's the difference people never see.

So lets crunch some operating cost figures of your 600w HPS and a 2 x 200w enviro system.

600w HPS pulls 3.0 amps on a 240v system using a magnetic coil ballast. 3.0 x 240 = 720 watts and hour. Let's assume you use it only for flowering. 720 x 12 = 8,640 per day, divided by 1000 to get the kilowatts = 8.54 kw per day x 7 = 59.78 per week x 48 = 2869.4 per year x 0.10p per kw = £286.94 per year. Plus the purchase price of 69.99 = £356.93 total cost for year 1.

A 200w Envirolite uses 123w of electricity. 123 x 2 = 264w x 12 = 3168 per day, divided by 1000 to get the kw = 3.168 per day x 7 = 22.17 x 48 = 1064.44 x .10p = £106.44 per year. Add in the purchase price of the 2 x 200w Enviro system. 2 x 200w enviro's = £80 + £50 reflector = £130 plus year 1 operating cost = £236.44 a year one saving of £120.49 and a year 2 saving of £180.44 on the operating cost.

You're right, it's far cheaper just to get another HID system!

And how many plants will these envirolites do, please bare in mind that im going to be using 6 x 600w hps systems to flower