Lighting questions.. Considering LED over hps/mh combo

SnapsProvolone · Feb 15, 2014

monkeychief said:
yes the china based contact center worries me greatly.. Just when I think I found someone to buy from!!

back to the drawing board

The of the matter is only 4 main US companies I'm aware of that's actually made stateside, but please correct me if i"m wrong. Apache, A51, CLW, and Kessil. The rest are all made in china by oem manufacturers that u can go direct in most cases and get the exact counterpart for half or more less compared to brand-names which are simply resellers. Yes, some of these US resellers do invest time and resource into the development and application of this technology to be canna-specific.

Your reservations for "chinese" panels is a direct result of the spin campaign perpetrated by the industry to protect their ridiculous margins. This is a tremendous disservice to the end-users and canna cause since it would put a lot of potential users out due to the high initial costs. This is especially true to the people who are new to the technology who are relying on threads like these to gain their buying decision knowledge. For this, I feel it's extremely irresponsible for people who have just had limited or no experience with other makes and yet put their 2cents in ignorance or ill-intentions and put down other makes and models in total disregard to the expense of people's time and resources. Besides, the chinese are now the world's manufacturer for all producsts, including low to ultra high-tech. Without them, your Iphone might be twice as much along with practically everything we use in our everyday life. Like I said, I've own HGL, GLH, Blackdogs and chinese manufacturers LG, CT, E-Shine, and GEHL. I can personally attest to you there is absolute no difference in fit and finish along with performance and reliability between them. In most cases, you can get the same exact panel for at least half off the so-called brand-names. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with paying for brand-names but for me it's pointless cause the girls will not be able to tell the difference from a generic and a re-branded copy from the same production line. Also, from my past dealing with these different vendors, I've found on average the chinese companies seem to have better customer before and after support. I can tell u this, they answer your emails much quicker than their US counterparts. The idea is to invest the time to learn the spectrum and most important is to always keep in mind of the inverse square law when designing an effective lighting system. I see no point in paying someone for their knowledge when u can obtain the same with a little effort. If you can stay away, from a single high-power unit and spread the wattage into smaller panels in order to increase coverage and intensity loss due to the inverse square. For example, you can get good results from a single high-power 600w unit, but you can get excellent results from better coverage and intensity from relying on primary core footprint rather the side lighting of the other edges . This will cause the similar effect prone to any hooded of having an uneven canopy with the center being taller and more develop often causing shading shorter weaker growth that will result in poor quality airy buds. This problem will be eliminated and intensity will dramatically increase due less loss from the inverse square thing. The other thing u might want to consider is the use of white spec. vs. traditional red spec. The whites offer some real advantages including better canopy penetration from it's green/blue peaks and more efficient use of power resulting up to 27% gain vs comparable red spec. For example, a 3w 660nm will draw only 1.6w vs. a similar 3w 6000k will actually draw upt to 2.2w. This in fact is like getting an additional 1/3 more wattage for free along with the better penetration and intensity. There's no getting around intensity in my experience unless airy popcorn buds are of no concern, and intensity means power, as this is why I think these panels of 200w or less claiming 3x3 coverage needs to back off the meds a little unless u want your grow ending up like being flowered with floro's. Actual number are more like at least doubled that just to even get excited over the density and more like tripled that at 600w to have quality that will even impress the HID thumbers.

Can we please get an edit to parse this wall of text so that we may give it the reading it clearly deserved.

Thanks

Where am I · Feb 16, 2014

SnapsProvolone said:
Can we please get an edit to parse this wall of text so that we may give it the reading it clearly deserved.

Thanks

The of the matter is only 4 main US companies I'm aware of that's actually made stateside, but please correct me if i"m wrong. Apache, A51, CLW, and Kessil. The rest are all made in china by oem manufacturers that u can go direct in most cases and get the exact counterpart for half or more less compared to brand-names which are simply resellers. Yes, some of these US resellers do invest time and resource into the development and application of this technology to be canna-specific.

I would like to add another US based company out of the MIDWEST check out RHINOGROW....

monkeychief · Feb 16, 2014

SnapsProvolone said:
Can we please get an edit to parse this wall of text so that we may give it the reading it clearly deserved.

Thanks

I stand humbly corrected. Sorry was in a hurry so I just started to type down some thoughts and left without even reading it. Just tried and couldn't even understand it myself.

I join these threads to entertain myself and share experiences and thought in hopes of helping people new to this tech. to navigate thru an industry that still slanging snake oil. I wasted a lot of time and resources buying some of these early scam ufo's and even high-end panels like the early HGL Penetrators. These products would make outrageous claims and then sell u lights that would veg. ok but would fail miserably at flowering with small, airy, popcorn-like buds. This tech. really didn't come to age til the 3w chips came out and then ok, we might have something here as the buds now were bigger and more important, had the density that the HID guys can no longer smirk at. If you've been growing for awhile, then you were once a HID believer because it's yield will put a smile on anyone's face including mine. The good new is that leds has finally reached the performance and price benchmark to make it a worthwhile HID alternative.

With that said, I think the two most important factors that must be present in order for a grow light to be able to grow and fruit plants properly. Spectrum and intensity. You must have both, not just one and hope it will compensate for the other. I remember it wasn't long when there was heated debate over the 1w efficiency vs. the 2w, and later 3 to now 5w. Yes the 1w was getting up to 85% efficiency .85w vs. a 2w at 1.4w. Yes the 1w is more efficient but a 2w running at 1.4w is still round 50% more power even though it's less efficient. The same thing happened when the 3w came out, but the current 5w seems to be plagued with issues that has so far prevented it from getting a little over half it's rating. I don't think It'll be long before they work out the bugs in the 5w and bring the prices down that the 3w will eventually phase out. This is technology, it gets more efficient and cheaper as time progresses. Fortunately for the current buyers now the quality standards in this industry has gone up dramatically since the crazy beginning. As long as u stick with a reputable company, you'll be fine as the spec. are all very similar these days as most will the the industry standard 4,6,9,11+, which all work with some better than others. The problem with these red spec. is that the red leds are also least efficient when compared to the newer white dominated spec. that Apache started and A51 tweaked it canna-specific for us. They actually started with a red spec. but gradually shifted with 4500k'630nm white spec, and now currently going all 3700k warm-whites. I am currently running all three of this spectrum in vegging since I just received these panels a month ago. So far these are my following observations for veg. only since I've just recently got them.

Apache 6100k/630nnm - The green/blue peak of the cool-whites promotes very good lateral and foliage growth, helping it achieve approx. 25% less stretching vs. A51 4500k/630. Apparently they nailed it the first time almost 5yrs. ago and has never revised it since.

A51 4500k/630nm - I can see why they have changed it all together this year to all 3700k warm-whites. It stretched on average bout 25% more than the Apache using the cool-whites instead of the 4500k day/natural white which has more yellow/red vs. the 6000k cool-whites. Reds unfortunately causes internode stretching as evident when vegging with an HPS that peaks in the yellow/red bands.

A51 all 3700k warm-whites. I highly recommend this spec. as it closely resembles the HPS. I noticed the difference within days as new shoots starting developing at a faster pace than before and the standard red spec. I was using. The only thing is it did stretch more than the cool-white Apache spec. probably since it's similar to the HPS spec. which peaks in the y/o/r range vs. the g/b peaks which promotes better vegging. But then again, most of these panels are puts more emphasis on flowering so I guess u can add some cool-white cfl's when vegging or maybe add a little 470's to reduce the stretching.

The two most important thing for leds for this application is spectrum and intensity. These must go hand in hand as it takes both to produce the yield and quality that will justify the whole debate. Try to skip pass all the spec. mumbo jumbo cause more than likely you have no clue except from what they tell u since most of us has had very limited if at all led experience. This is what the resellers rely on in wowing us with their fancy proprietary names but if u break them all down, they're all very compatible unless we're talking about the ebay's crazy useless .5w led panels. Another way to get a free and easy 27% more wattage is the use of white spec. cause of it's efficiency vs. the red spec. The reason being the white leds are more efficient and can draw up to 2.2w out of a 3w chip vs. only 1.6w for the comparable red chip because it's less efficient. The difference between the white and red chip actual power draw is 1.6/2,2=n/100=.28, hence the 28% free power gain running both at comparable current level. You also have benefit of extra canopy penetration ability of the green band that the cool-whites peak in the green/blue temps. Please note the actual between the red and white dominated spectrum will more likely be less than 28% because u have to take into consideration of the small number of supplemental reds(630's) in these spec.

Intensity, besides the inverse-square-law, is the number culprit in determining success and failure in any type of grow lighting. The only exception to this is sunlight, which is constant at any distance. I think it's a real disservice to the public that the manufacturers and suppliers market a single high-power unit such as a 500w+ stand-alone led panel. Even at that kind of power, the intensity at the edges of the footprint will only be a fraction of the core due to the dreaded inverse square. Not to sound like a broken record, but you're better off splitting the wattage to more smaller panels to better cover the area. For those who don't understand how much the inverse square affect the intensity, please refer to this: http://a51led.com/store/index.php?main_page=page&id=15 You don't have to remember the exact formula, just that it's a good idea to spread the wattage over the whole footprint as evenly as possible and not concentrate all of it into one a single core footprint of 2x2' and recomment it for a 3x3', or worst a 3.5x3.5' or 4x4'. The idea regarding intensity is to run as much current as possible as efficiently as possible within the chip's safe operating capacity to ensure reliability. Currently the 3w seems to be the all around winner regarding efficiency and cost-performance vs. the 5w. I'm sure this will change as soon as the 5watter are dialed-in. By running up to 4 panels per given footprint, u can choose to run up to that many different spec. combo's to further investigate the full spectrum thing. This might prove more promising that to keep adding bigger less efficient chip in hope of satisfying our magnum-itis tendencies.

As you can see, by the time you reach the other edges of the 3' footprint the intensity is only a fraction compared to less than 2' away taken the core-center 1x1' into consideration. After studying this illustration of par readings, a single high-power source is not such a hot idea after all. Like I said, the idea is to split the wattage into smaller and put the light as directly over the canopy as possible so that girls are as directly underneath the panel as much as possible. I feel the ideal single panel should be approx. 150-250w depending on the plant size and desired yield results. This will enable u to use each panel to cover only a 1.5-2 x 1.5-2' core footprint, which would put at least 30% of the available light even at the outer edges of this reduced effective core area. This is especially true with a stand-alone unit that doesn't have the benefit of having the light bleeding from the next light over. This business bout a single high-power unit covering a 3ft.+ is foolish as even at 600w+, the inverse square will still make sure you're not benefitting from all that wattage that they say will enable u to adequately cover the recommended footprint. This especially applies when u are trying to cover a large growing area when these high-powered panels are spaced at leat 3ft. from each other when the better approach is have 4 150-200w panels pulling a combined 600-800w actual wattage literally having the whole footprint within the 1.5-2x1.5-3' core footprint to dramatically lessen the inverse square effect.

I also found from my experience the girls are able to compensate for shortages in spectrum, but cannot do anything regarding intensity because that's the factor that will determine the actual rate of photosythesis. This is demonstrated by the 4 band spectrum like Stealth, which will work as long as u put enough intensity behind it. The same can't be said if the spec. was on but not enough intensity to generate enough intensity will usually result in low qualtity and yield.

monkeychief · Feb 16, 2014

The same can't be said if the spec. was on but not enough intensity to generate enough intensity will usually result in low qualtity and yield.

Had to screw that last sentence up. lol. I meant the same can't be said if the spec. was on but not enough power was avail. to generate the required intensity will usually result in low quality and yield.

Where am I · Feb 17, 2014

monkeychief said:
The same can't be said if the spec. was on but not enough intensity to generate enough intensity will usually result in low qualtity and yield.

Had to screw that last sentence up. lol. I meant the same can't be said if the spec. was on but not enough power was avail. to generate the required intensity will usually result in low quality and yield.

MC,

Excellent observations! I have been running four 135 (actual) watt panels for sometime in a 4 X 4 tent. These panels do an excellent job in veg. The issue always arises during flower. If you grow larger plants say from the 3- 4 ft size you will inevitably be unable to cover the plant with the core foot print of the light. What is grown in a the core will maintain good density what is outside of the core or down lower on the plant will be airy. You can compensate some by lollipoping or training . That is why short SOG/ SCROG growing methods work good for LED. Your alternative is to increase your core by additional panels. My last grow consisted of an LED grow till week 6 of flower. I then switched to 600 watt HPS through week 9. It is possible to do this during the colder months because you can use the heat from the light to supplement heating the room. It is not cost effective during late spring or summer months. You typically run out of room in a tent because of the height of the tent. This will reduce your core foot print just because of the height of the plant....

WAI

monkeychief · Feb 17, 2014

Another important factor one must consider is each type of growing discipline and number of panel(s) will be used for the grow. The reason for this is a high density, relatively small-sized SOG/Scrog type will be better serve with a more broad angle lens vs. say a indoor tree type, which would be better off with a more aggressive less angle lens to focus the light into a smaller footprint in order to increase the intensity and projection capability. Both of this can be overcome to a certain degree by applying raw power in terms of high max wattage to the canopy and let the plant deal with the intensity and saturation issue as they do with sunlight. As I previously mentioned, even sunlight's not capable of penetrating into the canopy effectively due to the leaf's ability to act as a very effective solar panel. Instead, the plants use the sun's rotation/movement to hit the inner and lower at different angles as it moves during the day. Again, another advantage of using multi-units that will enable u to hig them at different angles constantly unlike the sun which will be temporarily since it's moving throughout the day. Even though it's always better to buy the most panels for your intended total wattage allowance, sometimes it's not financially feasible so if you're limited to a single panel, this will affect the lens you choose because it will require a more broader angle lens to maximize the coverage area at the expense of intensity. By running multi-panel set up, you can increase the intensity dramatically and actually reverse the inverse square effect by multiplying instead of dividing into because we are reducing the distance to canopy vs. increasing it when using a single panel. If we refer to my previous posts on the PAR readings for a 3x3 footprint, the intensity increases dramatically as u move closer to the center core of the footprint because we are reversing the inverse square effect. Using this multi-panel system will enable u to not only counter but actually reversing and making it work for instead of against us. We are talking substantial numbers, example using actual par readings of 1/6 to yikes, 1/20th at the outer fringe of the 3' from center. This will end up with nice fat buds in the center directly underneath the light and overdeveloped canopy resulting in shading and competition for light that will result in small airy buds on the outer edges.

I then switched to 600 watt HPS through week 9. It is possible to do this during the colder months because you can use the heat from the light to supplement heating the room. It is not cost effective during late spring or summer months. You typically run out of room in a tent because of the height of the tent. This will reduce your core foot print just because of the height of the plant....

It's actually a good idea in the winter months in cold climate to run the HPS to keep the temp. up. In summer months, hopefully if u got the spec. and intensity right shouldn't have to run any additional lighting unless to raise the grow temp. while also benefiting from the extra lighting.

This is another benefit to buy factor-direct because it enables you to customize the exact spec. and lens for your exact application. The same can't be said for most of the so-called name brands because it will not be feasible for them to do so. Because of this, they usually offer a compromised version to serve all applications. I'm presenting a more comprehensive approach into this tech., because most of the time it's about dropping names and bogus claims. The idea if you're gonna buy something it's always better to know what u want before u even talk to the vendor and use them only to assist in the sales and not act as your consultant because most of the time, the info will be in their best not your interests.

But then by my all means, if it's too much work just be an ideal consumer for the rip-off's and make them rich and u poorer by buying what they sell u what u want instead of what u need. Don't get me wrong, they will genuinely try to sell u the best possible they make for your application. If you think by buying from a so-called brand-name will be safer since it's warranty will be covered byu a stateside company but reality is their warranty is from the facorty itself and they come usually at 3yrs. and now sometimes as much as 5yrs. attesting to their faith in this tech's reliability. Thru yrs, of using this, I see no reason not to have the same confidence on it's reliability. The problem is most if not all of their models will be compromised since it's not feasible for them to offer every possible lens and other features for obvious reasons production and costs issues. The other myth is these companies are usually relatively small as even most of the so-called name panels are no more than a single seller with a few support staffs that imports buy from these same factories and resell them at crazy prices keeping a lot of potential users out of the wonderful technology that will do the industry and environment a lot of good. THe tech. is here and available to us at prices that on par with HID's now as long as u invest the time and effort to gain the knowledge yourself bout spec., lens, etc.. and buy direct while offering u to experiment with different spec. and band combo's. It's always nice to gain the knowledge yourself so u don't have rely and pay for others knowledge.

Oddjob · Feb 18, 2014

Nice write up monkeychief. As for myself, I'm looking to make the transition away from HID and into the LED game. I'm currently running 600w HID in 4x4 tent with usually 4-5 bushes by way of topping and heavy lst for my grow style. With a budget of around $1500-2000 what would you recommend?

jartlow · Feb 18, 2014

Oddjob said:
Nice write up monkeychief. As for myself, I'm looking to make the transition away from HID and into the LED game. I'm currently running 600w HID in 4x4 tent with usually 4-5 bushes by way of topping and heavy lst for my grow style. With a budget of around $1500-2000 what would you recommend?

The 190 from area51lighting.com

I'm sold on it

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Rollitup mobile app

monkeychief · Feb 18, 2014

Oddjob said:
Nice write up monkeychief. As for myself, I'm looking to make the transition away from HID and into the LED game. I'm currently running 600w HID in 4x4 tent with usually 4-5 bushes by way of topping and heavy lst for my grow style. With a budget of around $1500-2000 what would you recommend?

Hope it'll help everyone get a little honest insight instead of the bs sales pitch and biased recommendation from the worst possible source... Your salesman and his snake oils. Smart choice as it will save u a lotta time, resources, and burn scars from touching those damn minisuns. It's also nice to leave home not worrying bout it.

K, here comes the fun part of spending other people's money. lol... Just kidding.. At least u know you're getting an unbiased opinion because I'm not sponsored, nor need or want to be. Actually this is a perfect example and case study of brand-name vs. generic and single high-wattage vs. splitting wattage into multi-panels. It will also demonstrate the amount of resources that can be save not just money, but time, effort, and disappointment as I found out the hard way. Like Patton said, "You don't win a war dying for your country. You win a war by making the other poor bastard die for his country." I already made the sacrifice and let them made a lot of money off me so I'm on a crusade to end this bs because it hurts a lot of people by putting making this great tech. beyond their reach. And for the people who have the luxury, it's always nice knowing u didn't get screwed. So let's start the fun... Please also note that I don't like dropping names because it defeats the purpose of being neutral but in this case it will also serve as an example between brand-name vs. generic.

Since your budget is more than enough for my recommended multi-panel set up, we can go with a more aggressive lens config. to increase intensity at the expense of footprint/coverage. This loss of coverage is avoided because this system enables us to position the panel directly over the girls therefore; will not be affected. As I previously discussed, this system will put almost all of your girls directly underneath the light resulting in 100% core coverage which will promote an even canopy resulting in a substantial growth/yield vs. relying on secondary side lighting using a single unit.

Brand-name

(4) A51 XGS-190's will put u at exactly 2k at 500/pc. with their qty discount. I feel these are the best value brand-name available. They are of excellent quality and fair-priced making them an excellent value if u want to go this route. They would probably recommend u 2 for your 4x4 since each are rated for a 3x3, which should be good but u might be a little disappointed with the yield coming from Mr. HPS. Also as the thread's name states, the idea here is to replace a HID with leds and hopefully get similar quality/quantity or at least close. Like I said before, this myth bout using 190w like this panel to cover a 3x3 and expecting to run with even a 600HPS has been seriously busted by people who've played a little with these leds. In my experience, u will need at least 70% of the HID wattage for the same coverage to be happy and more like 80+ to be content. Please also keep in mind that leds will save i bout 30% cooling overhead,(fans, ac, etc.). Do not get the 160's as they are the old 4500k/630nm which will stretch like crazy. I think this might be caused by excessive reds in spec. because compared to the Apache which uses 6100k cool-whites vs. A51 4500k day-whites which contains more yellow and red bands.

Generic(china factory direct)

(4) GEHL X-Grow series 126 x 3w. Each panel will give u 126x3w (six cluster) 1715 umol @ 30cm , and 885umol @ 60cm, 447umol @ 90cm
This is phenomenal vs. the A51 XGS-190 at 1349 umol@30cm, 675 umol@60cm, and 301unol@90cm, respectively. They are able to pull these numbers using secondary lens. These are identical to a very well known brand-name for little more than 1/3 price. These should pull approx. 270w and I feel this system is the best system given the incredible par readings up to 437umoles at 3" will make it an ideal set-up for all the indoor tree guys to smile about. Please note that if u run the recommended 4 panels, you can afford to use a very aggressive 60degree lens to even focus more light into a smaller footprint that will further increase these incredible readings. This system will give u a total of 1100W+ actual led wattage will easily trump by 2x any of the claimed most powerful unit in the market like the BS Ion, Stealth 1250, BD's biggest mutt, and Lush's new big boy. The crazier thing is it does all this for bout half the price of the above mentioned names. Let me confirm the price with them but they should only be round $250-300/pc.. These guys are one of the major OEM guys making some of and one the best performing and expensive major brand-name. These guys have excellent before and after sales and are very honest in their specs.

LG Mars II 900's $400-450/pc. pullin approx. 450w will give round 900w. I don't like to recommend less than four but in this case the value must be given consideration. These have no secondary lens but rely on raw wattage and are 5w, but that's another topic in itself. This is OEM factories with excellent quality and after sales support.

Please note that any comparable powered panel from reputable factories like E-shine, CT, Bysen, VanQ, etc. is fine. You can opt. for their factory spectrum's fine because most of them are very compatible these days running the tried n trued 11+ band spec. or one of the 6-9band spec. will do. I guess after this post I will offically become a persona non grata to the so-called brand-names but guess what guys. I don't need you as I can do exactly what u do which is conduct my own R&D and come up with my own spectrum solutions. Again, there's no point of paying them for knowledge that's readily avail. at a keystroke away if u just invest the time and effort. Good Luck and let me know if u need some insights regarding spectrum especially whites which I'm currently testing most avail. successful spec. available at the time. Apache, A51's last year and latest all 3700k warm whites.

monkeychief · Feb 18, 2014

jartlow said:
The 190 from area51lighting.com

I'm sold on it

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Rollitup mobile app

Thanks, hope it helps. I applaud your decision regarding A51, though I feel there's more cost-effective alternatives. But hey, nothing wrong with contributing to the cash flow of our much needed economy.

genuity · Feb 18, 2014

this is the info i been needing,you are doing a good thing,and your post are very helpful...thanks monkeychief

Where am I · Feb 19, 2014

Oddjob said:
Nice write up monkeychief. As for myself, I'm looking to make the transition away from HID and into the LED game. I'm currently running 600w HID in 4x4 tent with usually 4-5 bushes by way of topping and heavy lst for my grow style. With a budget of around $1500-2000 what would you recommend?

Hey Odd,

I basically ran the same style and system. Switched to LED a couple of years ago and have had good success but you have to keep your ladies in the core footprint. My current setup consist of about 530 watts of actual watts with four lights. I plan on increasing it by at least two more. I believe in having smaller multiple lights. It also provides a lot more flexibility especially if you grow multiple strains which may react differently to LED and grow at different growth rates.

WAI

monkeychief · Feb 19, 2014

genuity said:
this is the info i been needing,you are doing a good thing,and your post are very helpful...thanks monkeychief

Thanks. You make it all worthwhile and enjoyable, sir.

DCobeen · Feb 19, 2014

Where am I said:
Hey Odd,

I basically ran the same style and system. Switched to LED a couple of years ago and have had good success but you have to keep your ladies in the core footprint. My current setup consist of about 530 watts of actual watts with four lights. I plan on increasing it by at least two more. I believe in having smaller multiple lights. It also provides a lot more flexibility especially if you grow multiple strains which may react differently to LED and grow at different growth rates.

WAI

do you have your old lights? mix them. right now led and hps/mh mix is hte way to go.led is close but not enough yet. soon all. but use all you have. mix it up and watch.

Oddjob · Feb 20, 2014

Where am I said:
Hey Odd,

I basically ran the same style and system. Switched to LED a couple of years ago and have had good success but you have to keep your ladies in the core footprint. My current setup consist of about 530 watts of actual watts with four lights. I plan on increasing it by at least two more. I believe in having smaller multiple lights. It also provides a lot more flexibility especially if you grow multiple strains which may react differently to LED and grow at different growth rates.

WAI

What brand led's are you using?

Where am I · Feb 20, 2014

Here is a pic of what they can do....

Oddjob said:
What brand led's are you using?

I have two HGL 84X's and two (Bysen) direct buy 84X clones. They are about 2 years old. They run about 130 watts each. They do a fantastic job in veg and can carry you into flower. I grow rather large plants so I have penetration issues outside of the core footprint. Overall they do the job

Where am I · Feb 20, 2014

DCobeen said:
do you have your old lights? mix them. right now led and hps/mh mix is hte way to go.led is close but not enough yet. soon all. but use all you have. mix it up and watch.

DC,

Yes I do have my old HID system. I actually had it all boxed up and stored away. This last grow I actually used it for the last few weeks of flower. It is feasible to use the HPS when it is cold outside but once it climbs above 40 degree F then you run into heat issues in the tent unless you crank up the ventilation... You would be surprised how much heat one those bulbs generates. It actually was heating a 20 x 16 foot room to about 78 degree F... when I dumped the exhaust air from the hood into the room. My observation is that the HPS did help with bud density. The LED gives it out standing quality. The next round plan on adding a few more panels. If you review the Rock Mountain grow video they are using a blanket of LED lights. They basically provide a core foot print across the entire canopy. If I could have a LED light that was the size of my 4 X 4 tent that would do it for flower. You also need a minimum height if you are going to get the correct spectral blend from a multi - spectrum LED light. The spectrum's are pretty much dialed in for growing but I also believe MC is correct a more sunlight like spectrum is all around better for the plant. The new COB panels are now "pushing" the intensity levels. You need intensity or more light. I know there is science behind "targeted" spectrum yet sunlight is a blend of spectrum's. Your advantage with LED now becomes a heat issue vs a watt for watt issue with HID systems. My philosophy has always been a pound of rocks or a pound of feathers to me it still a pound... Now let use it in an application. Which would you use in a pillow? This whole "density" eye appeal is a long time marketing trick. If I roll a blunt of "sh*t medicine of some really dense bud grown under HID or a roll a top shelf blunt grown under LED with less dense buds and have my patient sample it they will always take the top shelf. If I take two buds one dense and one less dense and set them side by side they will take the denser bud. If I put two baggies of a zip of medicine one with dense buds one with lighter buds but it fills the bag 1/3 more. They will tend to take the fuller bag. If I grind up a couple of buds one dense one lighter but that were clones of the same mother plant one grown under hps one under LED and have them sample a bowl. They majority of the time they will prefer the LED grown medicine... Keep it green...

monkeychief · Feb 20, 2014

Where am I said:
DC,

Yes I do have my old HID system. I actually had it all boxed up and stored away. This last grow I actually used it for the last few weeks of flower. It is feasible to use the HPS when it is cold outside but once it climbs above 40 degree F then you run into heat issues in the tent unless you crank up the ventilation... You would be surprised how much heat one those bulbs generates. It actually was heating a 20 x 16 foot room to about 78 degree F... when I dumped the exhaust air from the hood into the room. My observation is that the HPS did help with bud density. The LED gives it out standing quality. The next round plan on adding a few more panels. If you review the Rock Mountain grow video they are using a blanket of LED lights. They basically provide a core foot print across the entire canopy. If I could have a LED light that was the size of my 4 X 4 tent that would do it for flower. You also need a minimum height if you are going to get the correct spectral blend from a multi - spectrum LED light. The spectrum's are pretty much dialed in for growing but I also believe MC is correct a more sunlight like spectrum is all around better for the plant. The new COB panels are now "pushing" the intensity levels. You need intensity or more light. I know there is science behind "targeted" spectrum yet sunlight is a blend of spectrum's. Your advantage with LED now becomes a heat issue vs a watt for watt issue with HID systems. My philosophy has always been a pound of rocks or a pound of feathers to me it still a pound... Now let use it in an application. Which would you use in a pillow? This whole "density" eye appeal is a long time marketing trick. If I roll a blunt of "sh*t medicine of some really dense bud grown under HID or a roll a top shelf blunt grown under LED with less dense buds and have my patient sample it they will always take the top shelf. If I take two buds one dense and one less dense and set them side by side they will take the denser bud. If I put two baggies of a zip of medicine one with dense buds one with lighter buds but it fills the bag 1/3 more. They will tend to take the fuller bag. If I grind up a couple of buds one dense one lighter but that were clones of the same mother plant one grown under hps one under LED and have them sample a bowl. They majority of the time they will prefer the LED grown medicine... Keep it green...

It might be coincidental but still a good idea for A51 to gradually shifted from using a red spec. starting out, progressing to a more white dominated spec., and finally going 100% warm white for this year's current model. As I said, Apache nailed it therefore; has never had to change the spec. since it's intro. Regarding sunlight and it's spectrum, I think it's just common sense that plants has evolved since the beginning with sunlight as the reference for growth so here man comes along later and tries to dictate what's best for them. I tend to put my money on sunlight, the true OG and all-mighty king of all grow lights. Besides, I don't think mother nature agrees with that much reds is needed for ideal growth otherwise our world will be illuminated by an end of days red spectrum as prescribed by us as best for them. All the current red spec. only targets the Clorophyll a/b peaks so what happens to everything in between cause I haven't read nor logic will have that only peaks are only needed for max. growth. Like I always say, you can't expect an engine to run at it's peak when it's not running on all cylinders. I can see why because it works per my observations so far this last month vs. traditional 11+ band red spec. I'm using. The above pic you will see the difference in lateral and foliage growth vs. the traditional 11+band spec.. Please keep in mind that the red panel enjoyed a 70w advantae vs. the all 3700k next to it as yet after only one week demonstrated that much difference.

I totally agree with you on the fuller, baggy appeal of the airy buds will fill up more volume and also burns better if you're the lazy type that don't grind. The reason why I bring up the issue is this is the exact excuse the HID guys use to discredit the leds. And since airy buds means little mass therefore; will affect yield and ultimately the g/w that everyone seems to be concern about. I myself agree with u as I'm not in this for business so quality is of concern and quantity isn't. Though it's nice cause it's a pride and sense of accomplishment thing to achieve and succeed. When you replace something the replacement hopefully should be of equal or better otherwise it wouldn't be a replacement but merely an alternative with limitations. Right on though for those of us who are not in it for the business and more concern for the quality instead the quantity. But then again, quality is up to the individual since every person will have a different benchmark for quality and needs.

Oddjob · Feb 20, 2014

So are you guys admitting or saying that the Chinese led's on Ebay are just as good as a51, hans, apache and clw?

monkeychief · Feb 21, 2014

Oddjob said:
So are you guys admitting or saying that the Chinese led's on Ebay are just as good as a51, hans, apache and clw?

A very careful yes. Yes some of the ebay seller are legit products such as these panels but you're better off with alibaba/alibaba express since it will have most of the factories listed there. There's some pretty shady seller on ebay. Regarding the Chinese led's, almost all leds are made in china as literally everything else. Like any market it will have it's good and bad quality, it's up to us to find the right one. As I previously mentioned, if you must, you can also get these panels factory direct with the Cree's installed for $1 more per chip. As fat as the quality and performance, these are the exact panels that came from the same production line as the name brand I posted earlier. Here's an unbelievable deal that's I came across that let u customize your own spec. for no charge and is the lowest 3w panel that's well built comes with a full 3yr. warranty. As I said, they are the OEM for the most successful and expensive panel on the market. These are the exact panels I'm running for my different spectrum tests and are the best value in my opinion who is just starting out or on a limited budget. They're $146 incl. shipping so for only $584 you can have 4 100x3w panels pulling 220W each running one of the white spec. which will put an incredible 880w actual wattage to the canopy. It doesn't have secondary lens but makes up with raw power. This is 25% more wattage than my Blackdog which is 660w. and share pretty much the same basic tech.. The Blackdog has no secondary lens and it was the best performing brand panels I've ever used with the quality and density on par or better than HID's. U can actually use 3 for flowering and the 4th for veggin. It also enable u to experiment with running different spectrum combo's together to create a more complete full spectrum that I and another tester will be experimenting with. Just thought I'd pass on the tip on a hella deal. As I said, the tech. has finally reached a point that can be seriously consider an alternative to HID's and the price of the chips has gone down to affordable level finally making it feasible for your everyday grower.

Lighting questions.. Considering LED over hps/mh combo

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