Living Organics *Ofiicial Thread*
- Thread starter Piff83
- Start date
foreverflyhi
Well-Known Member
How long have u been cooking? I just checked my Ph thru out e soil batch, it's at a 6.4, I'm waiti till it gets about 6.8 to I start off my next grow. I always compare subcools recipe or technique with rev and revs is by far more complicated as far as how everything balances out. For example he uses both powdered dolomite and granular. One for fast acting and another for long term. He also uses green sand for short term and long term when the soil is being recycled. Which brings me to my next thought, mostly everything rev explains is really meant for recycling, he never buys new soil, everything is recycled. Everything he inputs in the mix is for both shrt term and Long term and that's a huge plus in my books.
Also something I find interesting, if you look at his soil it's more nitrogen based, he argues that nitrogen based fertilizers are for fast acting and to keep the micro heards happy. Subcool uses phos based fertilizers. Very conterdicticve if you think about it.
gladstoned
Well-Known Member
It's been cooking a few weeks.
shredder4
Well-Known Member
Hey guys, was just floating though cyberspace and noticed my friend rrog was here. I read the last few pages and I will leave a few comments and a link, if that's all right. I agree with rrog on the pot celebrities. If you do a ten minute search on the rev you will find that he was on these forums under his real name a few short years ago. He was a fairly respected grower and was resonably smart and in general a good dude. But now as a celeb he may be over reaching a bit. Under pressure to write for a living he sometimes ignores science. If a layer or spike is valid there will be science on it. My advice is to do a search on google scholar or simular scientific search engine on this subject. Stoner science and all.......enough said
And on ph and it's role in organic soil. You have to trust in your soil microbes to take care of this. Our role is best served to provide those same microbes to do this for us. And that is why we spend our time and effort on compost tea, compost, vermi compost, earth worm castings. It's all about the microbes in these things. This is why fresh home made compost works so much better than old plastic wrapped bags of ewc that mostly likey was bagged a year ago and the worms were fed cardboard, lol. And cost more to boot, lol. Here is a article that explains this much better than I ever could.
Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels
The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.
Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.
In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.
A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.
If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.
When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.
This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.
So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.
Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.
I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.
So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.
And on ph and it's role in organic soil. You have to trust in your soil microbes to take care of this. Our role is best served to provide those same microbes to do this for us. And that is why we spend our time and effort on compost tea, compost, vermi compost, earth worm castings. It's all about the microbes in these things. This is why fresh home made compost works so much better than old plastic wrapped bags of ewc that mostly likey was bagged a year ago and the worms were fed cardboard, lol. And cost more to boot, lol. Here is a article that explains this much better than I ever could.
Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels
The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.
Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.
In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.
A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.
If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.
When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.
This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.
So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.
Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.
I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.
So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.
Cann
Well-Known Member
lmao holy shit...this thread exploded overnight.
first off, foreverfly...dude....you seem to be the only one who is truly "hating" around here. we are all simply organic heads who are trying to become enlightened, so saying that we are "hijacking" and taking the thread off-topic is kinda ridiculous...who cares what the first few pages of the thread were about...it has moved on to the discussion of other things after we all personally read TLO and realized it was not everything it was played up to be...
personally I agree 100% with everything Rrog has said, and I think it's pretty funny you are arguing with him. Keep it up, and see where it gets you. If you opened your mind for a second and actually listened to what he has to say, you will realize you are being pretty ridiculous about this whole situation. Personally, I am glad he has spoken his mind, because it has opened mine to bigger and better things in the world of organic horticulture. If you want to keep living in the dark and worshipping the rev and subcool, be my guest, but don't hate on those who are trying to spread enlightenment. lets keep this thread constructive...
So Oriah...what is your conclusion?
Spliff - I would second what Rrog has to say about organics indoors. Honestly it shocked me that you only run your organics outdoors...what?!?!?!?
gladstoned - awesome to have you around here, pay attention and you will learn a lot
EDIT: Shredder - thanks for that link! I was too lazy to search around for it, but like I said a few pages back, Jeff Lowenfels is much better at explaining it than me. Oriah - pay attention to this one. gold.
first off, foreverfly...dude....you seem to be the only one who is truly "hating" around here. we are all simply organic heads who are trying to become enlightened, so saying that we are "hijacking" and taking the thread off-topic is kinda ridiculous...who cares what the first few pages of the thread were about...it has moved on to the discussion of other things after we all personally read TLO and realized it was not everything it was played up to be...
personally I agree 100% with everything Rrog has said, and I think it's pretty funny you are arguing with him. Keep it up, and see where it gets you. If you opened your mind for a second and actually listened to what he has to say, you will realize you are being pretty ridiculous about this whole situation. Personally, I am glad he has spoken his mind, because it has opened mine to bigger and better things in the world of organic horticulture. If you want to keep living in the dark and worshipping the rev and subcool, be my guest, but don't hate on those who are trying to spread enlightenment. lets keep this thread constructive...
So Oriah...what is your conclusion?
Spliff - I would second what Rrog has to say about organics indoors. Honestly it shocked me that you only run your organics outdoors...what?!?!?!?
gladstoned - awesome to have you around here, pay attention and you will learn a lot
EDIT: Shredder - thanks for that link! I was too lazy to search around for it, but like I said a few pages back, Jeff Lowenfels is much better at explaining it than me. Oriah - pay attention to this one. gold.
foreverflyhi
Well-Known Member
"we all personally read TLO and realized it was not everything it was played up to be" look here, cann just spoke for everyone.
First off "dude" there's a reason why this thread has 1 star out of 5. Sure stars have nothing to with how good or bad the info is, but if this thread would of started out right(which it was) it would of greatly benefited those who are into TLO or about to be into it. If i would of stumble onto this thread not knowing shit, I would of skipped it after a couple pages.
Im happy that TLO followers are trying this method out. I personal think it's fun! I wouldn't be such a believer if I would of never tried TLO herb. Seriously after I tried some I asked myself we the fuck did I not get into this long before?
Anyways regards to ph and soil, I only mention my ph because this is a great way of knowing if the cooking process is almost ready. When I first put all the amendments together and tested the ph it read 4.7 I believe, within a couple weeks it rose. Great indicater knowing your soil is ready and not too hot.
Check out tlobro on YouTube, beautiful TLO setup.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RVb0LD-GOE8
First off "dude" there's a reason why this thread has 1 star out of 5. Sure stars have nothing to with how good or bad the info is, but if this thread would of started out right(which it was) it would of greatly benefited those who are into TLO or about to be into it. If i would of stumble onto this thread not knowing shit, I would of skipped it after a couple pages.
Im happy that TLO followers are trying this method out. I personal think it's fun! I wouldn't be such a believer if I would of never tried TLO herb. Seriously after I tried some I asked myself we the fuck did I not get into this long before?
Anyways regards to ph and soil, I only mention my ph because this is a great way of knowing if the cooking process is almost ready. When I first put all the amendments together and tested the ph it read 4.7 I believe, within a couple weeks it rose. Great indicater knowing your soil is ready and not too hot.
Check out tlobro on YouTube, beautiful TLO setup.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RVb0LD-GOE8
Cann
Well-Known Member
lol I NEVER pay attention to the amount of stars a thread has...why is that important? if your so keen on TLO and don't want any "haters" then start another thread and we'll stay out of it. Personally, at the beginning of this thread, I was interested in TLO. Thanks to this thread (amongst many others), I am now no longer interested in TLO. Without people "hating" on TLO, I would've continued to live in ignorance. Since I don't want this for others, I will continue to "hate" on the rev and TLO and call it out for the BS that it is. Yes, it is much much better than most styles of growing, but it is laden with stoner science like Rrog mentioned. Go read some peer-reviewed journals and see where it gets you - not a rehashed version of magazine articles from a celebrity status cannabis icon.
NickNasty
Well-Known Member
Guys relax.... IMO anybody going organic is a good thing. People will learn and then branch off from there. We can all learn from each other. I think the reason for the spikes in TLO is because they are using small pots < I think it keeps the majority of the soil from being too hot of a mix. I prefer larger pots with totally mixed soil but to each their own. To all the organic guys (like me) who are not following the TLO way of doing things lets just sit back and watch and see how these guys do. Again people got to start somewhere and I for one hope their smoke turn out great. I mean its a way for people who don't know a lot about organics to get their feet wet and once they realize the water is nice they will step further in.
Cannabinoids
Well-Known Member
Any chance OP can put the Recipe on the first post of the thread?
gladstoned
Well-Known Member
TLO Mix
Attachments
POH Organics
Member
That mix looks hot as fuck?! and you're supposed to spike?! I promise you man, drop the book and mix regular, TLO soil, I've seen kelp only grows man...you're going to overcomplicate organics and ruin it for yourself early on. Invest in quality compost and balanced CEC and you're good to go.
TLO Mix
gladstoned
Well-Known Member
I'm rolling with it. If it doesn't work I will not swear off organics.
Honestly you guys are acting like I'm about to kill some plants. lmao.
I am not the least bit scared. lol.
Honestly you guys are acting like I'm about to kill some plants. lmao.
I am not the least bit scared. lol.
foreverflyhi
Well-Known Member
It's hot because rev runs with RO.
As we all know RO water has no minerals what's so ever.
Super soil for example runs with tap water (if not too heavy) and makes up for the lack of minerals the tap water carries.
POH, I like the style you just mention, but why do you sound like your so convinced that TLO won't work? Or not worth it?
TLO is a style being used by many many growers with great result?!
Im blessed to know so many different growers out there and able to try different style grown herbs. TLO thus far is one of my favorites. The herb i recently purchased Leaves that skunk taste that lingers in your mouth for a very long time!
As we all know RO water has no minerals what's so ever.
Super soil for example runs with tap water (if not too heavy) and makes up for the lack of minerals the tap water carries.
POH, I like the style you just mention, but why do you sound like your so convinced that TLO won't work? Or not worth it?
TLO is a style being used by many many growers with great result?!
Im blessed to know so many different growers out there and able to try different style grown herbs. TLO thus far is one of my favorites. The herb i recently purchased Leaves that skunk taste that lingers in your mouth for a very long time!
SpliffAndMyLady
Well-Known Member
At the moment I can't be out their turning piles of soil, mixing batches, flipping compost pile, mixing bins, ect. When I get back in physical shape you bet my ass I will be back on track, but right now mixing some ferts in a gallon jug and feeding is the best thing for my body. I need medicine, but I need a rest also.lol
Piff83
Member
I'm glad to hear that some people are giving TLO an honest go and look forward to seeing the results as i'm sure they will be amazing. i love TLO for how natural of a process it truly is. The soil life is converting all the nutrients found in the cooked soil and making it readily available for the roots to take up. I personally prefer this method instead of relying on man made nute schedules and regimens. Not to say you can't still get good results with them. I just would always end up feeling like a scientist in a lab rather than someone connecting with nature even if it was in a grow tent under lamps. To me TLO allows the plant to flourish to its full potential, which in the end is my main goal.
FR33MASON
Active Member
I grew up with organic farming so organics are somewhat trivial to me. I do know that when I get into any endavour, it is sometimes hard to figure out where exactly to start which is a paradoxical effect of having so much information available at one's fingertips. For organics, both aquatic and terrestrial, I always recommend that people first get to know the Nitrogen cycle first and foremost as it is the fundamental process that 99% of life on earth hinges off of. When you understand the Nitrogen cycle, it will be easier to understand other processes that are integral to it and the different growing styles of acheiving and maintaining it.
Here a couple of links:
http://www.teachersdomain.org/asset/lsps07_int_nitrogen/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle
Cheers and happy growing.
Here a couple of links:
http://www.teachersdomain.org/asset/lsps07_int_nitrogen/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle
Cheers and happy growing.
Redbird1223
Active Member
^^^^ that's interesting! so the nitrification process is the same for soil as it is for aquaponics? (I FUCKING KNEW IT!!) then why does everyone frown on using fish tank water on mj plants? everytime I bring it up somebody freaks out about ammonia, and build up and blah blah. that water would be full of nitrites and nitrates, as well as nitrifying bacteria....I mean that's exactly why we do a water change, because the nitrates are at max capacity and we need to make room for nitrite conversion. seems friendly AND desirable!!!!
since you guys are doing all this work building awesome soils, incorporate some biochar while you're at it
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/615900-biochar-burner.html
actually I bet this char could be used in an aquaponics setup for those you that build your own biofilters
since you guys are doing all this work building awesome soils, incorporate some biochar while you're at it
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/615900-biochar-burner.html
actually I bet this char could be used in an aquaponics setup for those you that build your own biofilters
FR33MASON
Active Member
Water is only a more dense atmosphere than what we live in.
I am not a big fan of any type of carbon in filter media but for those that do run carbon, yes it could be used.
Cheers and happy growing.
EDIT: I will point out one difference of the nitrogen cycle from land and water and that is in water, the cycle occurs both in the atmosphere and substrate where as on land, it primarily occurs only in the substrate.
Redbird1223
Active Member
What? why wouldn't it happen on land too. that doesn't make sense. Please clarify and help me understand (and avoid another fish water incedent) I learned as a kid that lightning brings/releases nitrogen into the air/rain. thats why nothing makes your lawn greener than real rain
from:http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/N/NitrogenCycle.html
The nitrogen molecule (N[SUB]2[/SUB]) is quite inert. To break it apart so that its atoms can combine with other atoms requires the input of substantial amounts of energy.
Three processes are responsible for most of the nitrogen fixation in the biosphere:
- atmospheric fixation by lightning
- biological fixation by certain microbes — alone or in a symbiotic relationship with some plants and animals
- industrial fixation
Atmospheric nitrogen fixation probably contributes some 5– 8% of the total nitrogen fixed.