Mar- A Lago raided FBI Warrants

DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
However you were commenting on US policy, not that of NATO.
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Well, we were tied to it in Afghanistan and now Ukraine, but are more agreeable on Ukraine, so are your other NATO allies. BTW WW2 was a real cat fight between the allies behind the scenes, it's traditional. Gulf war 2 was a real cause for division, no NATO there.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
DIY-HP-LED said:
Well, we were tied to it in Afghanistan and now Ukraine, but are more agreeable on Ukraine, so are your other NATO allies. BTW WW2 was a real cat fight between the allies behind the scenes, it's traditional. Gulf war 2 was a real cause for division, no NATO there.
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Gulf war 2 was a simply awful instance of “if it worked for Daddy” while ignoring that before bomb one was dropped, gulf war 1 was developed as a true UN operation.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:

Bob Woodward: The intent is really important in Biden docs

20,122 views Jan 13, 2023
The Morning Joe panel discusses AG Garland's appointing Robert Hur to serve as a special counsel to review classified material found in President Joe Biden's Delaware residence and a Washington office he used.
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Ask any MAGA (or libertarian*) and they will tell you they can read Biden's mind. As with so many Republican beliefs formed without any evidence (WMD, Obama not born in US, the Big Lie) they just KNOW Biden intended to take those documents. Bring on Giuliani and Sydney Powell! They know how to prosecute a case without evidence and nail that habitual line stepper, Joe Biden!!!

(But most need more than unjustified belief. Which is why a special counsel has been appointed to figure out what happened, why and what should be done going forward.)



*So you want me to believe that Biden did not retain these documents in an an unauthorized location and immediately returned them considering the documents were from when he was vice president. Sorry my friend you have egg on your face. You just can't admit that Biden may have well broke the law just like Trump did. Some people have blinders on.

Biden mishandles classified documents

Maybe something simple like documents are read, then destroyed? i think there should be a courier from the military that brings the documents where they need to go, they wait, and then return them the same day. It begins to seem obvious that there are not nearly enough security measures in...
www.rollitup.org
 
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Ask any MAGA (or libertarian*) and they will tell you they can read Biden's mind. As with so many Republican beliefs formed without any evidence (WMD, Obama not born in US, the Big Lie) they just KNOW Biden intended to take those documents.

Bring on Giuliani and Sydney Powell! Then know how to prosecute a case without evidence and nail that habitual line stepper, Joe Biden.

*So you want me to believe that Biden did not retain these documents in an an unauthorized location and immediately returned them considering the documents were from when he was vice president. Sorry my friend you have egg on your face. You just can't admit that Biden may have well broke the law just like Trump did. Some people have blinders on.

Biden mishandles classified documents

Maybe something simple like documents are read, then destroyed? i think there should be a courier from the military that brings the documents where they need to go, they wait, and then return them the same day. It begins to seem obvious that there are not nearly enough security measures in...
www.rollitup.org
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i'm confused, why am i quoted?
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Ask any MAGA (or libertarian*) and they will tell you they can read Biden's mind. As with so many Republican beliefs formed without any evidence (WMD, Obama not born in US, the Big Lie) they just KNOW Biden intended to take those documents. Bring on Giuliani and Sydney Powell! They know how to prosecute a case without evidence and nail that habitual line stepper, Joe Biden!!!

(But most need more than unjustified belief. Which is why a special counsel has been appointed to figure out what happened, why and what should be done going forward.)



*So you want me to believe that Biden did not retain these documents in an an unauthorized location and immediately returned them considering the documents were from when he was vice president. Sorry my friend you have egg on your face. You just can't admit that Biden may have well broke the law just like Trump did. Some people have blinders on.

Biden mishandles classified documents

Maybe something simple like documents are read, then destroyed? i think there should be a courier from the military that brings the documents where they need to go, they wait, and then return them the same day. It begins to seem obvious that there are not nearly enough security measures in...
www.rollitup.org
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Mens rea, knowledge and intention is very important to obtain a conviction in such cases, it must be proved, in Trump's case it can be several ways, including his public confessions. He even confessed to Woodward on tape about covid FFS and mens rea can be proved there too. With Biden it appears to be more of a clerical error and no mens rea can be proved or even asserted, maybe a staffer will be in shit, we will see. Garland will be a judge with two reports, one for Trump and one for the Biden case, he is a judge after all and can assess the merits of each case. It will stifle the house Biden investigations with an on going investigation and likely cut the legs out from under any future one over it.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Mens rea, knowledge and intention is very important to obtain a conviction in such cases, it must be proved, in Trump's case it can be several ways, including his public confessions. He even confessed to Woodward on tape about covid FFS and mens rea can be proved there too. With Biden it appears to be more of a clerical error and no mens rea can be proved or even asserted, maybe a staffer will be in shit, we will see. Garland will be a judge with two reports, one for Trump and one for the Biden case, he is a judge after all and can assess the merits of each case. It will stifle the house Biden investigations with an on going investigation and likely cut the legs out from under any future one over it.
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I think the division between us and them comes after acknowledging what you said is true. The difference, as with the WMD argument and the Big Lie and now, this documents case that Biden has stepped in, is we look and see no evidence and the people making the fuss believe they are right without evidence. They Believe there were WMD. They Believe Trump won and the election was stolen. They Believe that Biden intentionally held those documents (as shown in the quote from that libertarian). There are zero facts or evidence upon which to base those beliefs, just, they believe.

This is why our arguments are so irritating to a logical person like the mod for this board. We get to the point where there is no point in further discussion and press on. It becomes a pointless back and forth. Then they get angry and start shouting. Personally, I enjoy watching the bonfire go up but a more logical person does not.
 
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DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I think the division between us and them comes after acknowledging what you said is true. The difference, as with the WMD argument and the Big Lie and now, this documents case that Biden has stepped in, is we look and see no evidence and the people making the fuss believe they are right without evidence. They Believe there were WMD. They Believe Trump won and the election was stolen. They Believe that Biden intentionally held those documents (as shown in the quote from that libertarian). There are have zero facts or evidence upon which to base those beliefs, just, they believe.

This is why our arguments are so irritating to a logical person like the mod for this board. We get to the point where there is no point in further discussion and press on. It becomes a pointless back and forth. Then they get angry and start shouting. Personally, I enjoy watching the bonfire go up but a more logical person does not.
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I saw on TV that the J6 hearing never changed any minds, glanced at MSNBC.

Let the courts decide matters of law and make just laws and judges too!

We are discussing clear cut crimes here though, many of them by many people, Trump did not act alone to seize power, crimes I believe can be proven in a court of law. They can believe what they wish, but the courts deal in facts, evidence and reason in applying the law. Proving things in court has always been the issue in convicting politicians and other such powerful people, with Donald however that evidence is abundant and clear. He was stupid, lazy, ignorant and indolent and the arrogance and hubris were contagious, they left an extraordinary trail of documentary evidence too, with documents, texts and emails.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I saw on TV that the J6 hearing never changed any minds, glanced at MSNBC.

Let the courts decide matters of law and make just laws and judges too!

We are discussing clear cut crimes here though, many of them by many people, Trump did not act alone to seize power, crimes I believe can be proven in a court of law. They can believe what they wish, but the courts deal in facts, evidence and reason in applying the law. Proving things in court has always been the issue in convicting politicians and other such powerful people, with Donald however that evidence is abundant and clear. He was stupid, lazy, ignorant and indolent and the arrogance and hubris were contagious, they left an extraordinary trail of documentary evidence too, with documents, texts and emails.
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I've also seen answers people gave when asked why they voted the way they did.

Concern about threats to our democracy ranked high.

Given that Democrats did surprisingly well in the past election,

maybe the poll you cited was done by the same people predicting a red tsunami.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
hillbill said:
The only thing similar between the trump and Biden incidents is the word “documents”.
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And the fact that documents that should have been returned, were not. I agree that intent makes a lot of difference, trump obviously knew what he had and lied about it, whereas Biden returned them promptly and continues to cooperate. But whatever system is in place to ensure that those documents get returned OBVIOUSLY doesn't work worth a fuck, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. The temptation to keep them, and the opportunity for mistakes to happen, should both be dealt with, these are documents that could get field agents killed, could cause serious diplomatic embarrassment for us and whoever the documents are about...There should be no way for them to be "misplaced".
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
DIY-HP-LED said:
I saw on TV that the J6 hearing never changed any minds, glanced at MSNBC.

Let the courts decide matters of law and make just laws and judges too!

We are discussing clear cut crimes here though, many of them by many people, Trump did not act alone to seize power, crimes I believe can be proven in a court of law. They can believe what they wish, but the courts deal in facts, evidence and reason in applying the law. Proving things in court has always been the issue in convicting politicians and other such powerful people, with Donald however that evidence is abundant and clear. He was stupid, lazy, ignorant and indolent and the arrogance and hubris were contagious, they left an extraordinary trail of documentary evidence too, with documents, texts and emails.
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The things I’ve seen on TV!

1674315037865.jpeg
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
And the fact that documents that should have been returned, were not. I agree that intent makes a lot of difference, trump obviously knew what he had and lied about it, whereas Biden returned them promptly and continues to cooperate. But whatever system is in place to ensure that those documents get returned OBVIOUSLY doesn't work worth a fuck, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. The temptation to keep them, and the opportunity for mistakes to happen, should both be dealt with, these are documents that could get field agents killed, could cause serious diplomatic embarrassment for us and whoever the documents are about...There should be no way for them to be "misplaced".
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No matter what rules are in place, someone like Trump will simply break them, the administration is the exclusive domain of the president and congress gave the presidency even more powers over time. Make all top secret documents only available on a special tablet and they can't be printed and if the device is removed from where it should be, all Hell will break lose and it will be remotely wiped etc. A tablet with no bluetooth or wifi, plug the fucking thing into a USB port and is geo tracked by the feds.

There are solutions, but it requires federal law and there will be no law of any use passed in the next two years, unless the DOJ changes the make up of the house, which they might!
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
DIY-HP-LED said:
Something more recent from Brookings

www.brookings.edu

Polls show Americans are divided on the significance of January 6 | Brookings

Two years since the January 6 insurrection, Americans are still divided on the events of that day.
www.brookings.edu www.brookings.edu
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Perhaps we interpret the data differently.
From when the hearings started (June) to when they ended, the column of Americans who characterized that man’s culpability as “a lot” went +4%.
The column “none” went -4%. So the hearings seem to have had some effect, possibly a lot when seen through the lens of maga voters’ ideology.

Two caveats:
1) the percentages are not far from the noise floor
2) the August search for classified documents occurred and was much in the news during the interval. I saw no analysis to compensate for that.

So I conclude (if that’s the word for something inconclusive) that the hearings having “no effect” is arguable.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
No matter what rules are in place, someone like Trump will simply break them, the administration is the exclusive domain of the president and congress gave the presidency even more powers over time. Make all top secret documents only available on a special tablet and they can't be printed and if the device is removed from where it should be, all Hell will break lose and it will be remotely wiped etc. A tablet with no bluetooth or wifi, plug the fucking thing into a USB port and is geo tracked by the feds.

There are solutions, but it requires federal law and there will be no law of any use passed in the next two years, unless the DOJ changes the make up of the house, which they might!
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knowing that someone will break the rules isn't a good reason to not have any rules. simply make the penalties so severe that people think way more than twice before they break that rule.
 
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