modular overkill led striplight build

probably some good read for most of us.
maybe not the polination part and we shouldnt drive our EC values as high, but..... its good stuff, good funded info.
as far i know these guys pull 40kg tomatoes a square meter (wet of course).

A thought I had whilst reading above attachment. Moflo might have clearer opinion on this. Growing florets that are essentially turning into unseeded/empty "fruit" maybe we want slightly more N? From flower "set" and ensuing bud formation, compared to tomatoes. Pretty sure people have success while using a wide variety of NPK.

What Lux app is more accurate then others?

seeing all

end_of_the_tunnel said:

A thought I had whilst reading above attachment. Moflo might have clearer opinion on this. Growing florets that are essentially turning into unseeded/empty "fruit" maybe we want slightly more N? From flower "set" and ensuing bud formation, compared to tomatoes. Pretty sure people have success while using a wide variety of NPK.

Click to expand...

seeing all the different ratios fertilizers are using i would agree that there is a wide range which works.
if youre refering to page 13, they reduce the N and raise K in flower.
N levels are reduced slightly in flower, still apear high to me in relation to the other elements.
btw P levels are not very high in relation there, 47ppm most of the time, seems to be ok for tomatos.

cobshopgrow said:

probably some good read for most of us.
maybe not the polination part and we shouldnt drive our EC values as high, but..... its good stuff, good funded info.

https://ag.purdue.edu/hla/fruitveg/Presentations/Hydroponic%20Tomato%20Production%20in%20Soilless%20Culture_February%2013,%202018_Petrus%20Langenhoven.pdf

as far i know these guys pull 40kg tomatoes a square meter (wet of course).

Click to expand...

No probably about it.

Your bleaching has me perplexed. I have a suspicion it is nutrient/ph related but as I say I am perplexed. What is the texture like on the leaves? Where do your micronutrients come from? (Mn, Fe, Mo, Cu....) ?
There should be a reason the plants can't take the level of light you expect them to, are the buddies that powerful/impactful that they are the cause? Or is it something along the lines of the added blue of the 4k or spectral distribution of the red phosphors have triggered a photosynthetic overdrive?

SSGrower said:

No probably about it.

Your bleaching has me perplexed. I have a suspicion it is nutrient/ph related but as I say I am perplexed. What is the texture like on the leaves? Where do your micronutrients come from? (Mn, Fe, Mo, Cu....) ?
There should be a reason the plants can't take the level of light you expect them to, are the buddies that powerful/impactful that they are the cause? Or is it something along the lines of the added blue of the 4k or spectral distribution of the red phosphors have triggered a photosynthetic overdrive?

Click to expand...

I will let Cobshop tell you what he thinks. But that phrase "photosynthetic overdive" gets my juices going. Maybe there is a lag between systems in plant? Think a few posts up he mentions backing off main white light alleviates symptoms.

TheSadBadGrower said:

What Lux app is more accurate then others?

Click to expand...

Iphone lux apps arent good, i read.
Android Samsung Phones should work better, the developers knows the hardware more.
basically there is always a problem with the comparability of the readings froms phones and cheap lux meters.

compared a lux meter app on my samsung with a cheap generic 20$ lux meter and my spectromaster.
they give you all different readings, prob just the spectrometer do it really right.
MY phone app readings where too low.

SSGrower said:

No probably about it.

Your bleaching has me perplexed. I have a suspicion it is nutrient/ph related but as I say I am perplexed. What is the texture like on the leaves? Where do your micronutrients come from? (Mn, Fe, Mo, Cu....) ?
There should be a reason the plants can't take the level of light you expect them to, are the buddies that powerful/impactful that they are the cause? Or is it something along the lines of the added blue of the 4k or spectral distribution of the red phosphors have triggered a photosynthetic overdrive?

Click to expand...

My thinking and a few things ive seen got me thinking that 800ppfd from 600 diodes is not the same to the plant as 800ppfd from 4000 diodes well spread out.

cobshopgrow said:

Iphone lux apps arent good, i read.
Android Samsung Phones should work better, the developers knows the hardware more.
basically there is always a problem with the comparability of the readings froms phones and cheap lux meters.

compared a lux meter app on my samsung with a cheap generic 20$ lux meter and my spectromaster.
they give you all different readings, prob just the spectrometer do it really right.
MY phone app readings where too low.

Click to expand...

Yea I didnt expect to get a perfect reading....just something to give me a ballpark number.

you can see how well the light is spreading and can compare results with each other, the phone app numbers arent rolled with a dice completly.
guessing the phone app is using the front cams green channel only and these cheap luxmeters are also only sensitive for one green peak, rest is guesswork of the electronic.

cobshopgrow said:

Iphone lux apps arent good, i read.
Android Samsung Phones should work better, the developers knows the hardware more.
basically there is always a problem with the comparability of the readings froms phones and cheap lux meters.

compared a lux meter app on my samsung with a cheap generic 20$ lux meter and my spectromaster.
they give you all different readings, prob just the spectrometer do it really right.
MY phone app readings where too low.

Click to expand...

How is the accuracy of your cheap lux meter?

SSGrower said:

No probably about it.

Your bleaching has me perplexed. I have a suspicion it is nutrient/ph related but as I say I am perplexed. What is the texture like on the leaves? Where do your micronutrients come from? (Mn, Fe, Mo, Cu....) ?
There should be a reason the plants can't take the level of light you expect them to, are the buddies that powerful/impactful that they are the cause? Or is it something along the lines of the added blue of the 4k or spectral distribution of the red phosphors have triggered a photosynthetic overdrive?

Click to expand...

am also a bit perplex always, but the relation is there and i can reproduce it.
where i measure 900ppfd, it bleaches quite quick.
i have this since i use tons of mid power leds, had the same last summer with 3000K 80cri only (with a few more watts but should be explainable).
The buddies will have no negative effect there, in contrary, the ones under the canopy shouldnt contribute at all to the bleaching.
The 4000k are harmless themself too, especially spectrum wise, while they of course contribute to the overall ppfd.
Not sure if the 660nm dont burn harder and faster, enhance the effect, if overdone, they at least give even more ppfd per watt then whites, i set them normally to just slightly peaking the spectrum.
Spectrum wise, maybe someone want to/can check the spectrum i posted and see which photosystems are activated the most, the 4000k 95cri should only help and theyre just a small fraction of the light atm.

the texture is fine, its just burning its chlorophyl.

I have used several fertilizers and media since last summer, my recent fertilizer is pretty high in micros as its ment to be mixed with a calcinit ratio up to 2:1 , 2 parts calcinit to one base salt, i dont do that but the micros would allow.
All micros are chealted and can be taken up to PH 8 or something.
Which doesnt mean the PH couldnt be the issue, while i had this in cocos also, where the PH was always pretty good.
Now in clay pebbles it was mostly too high, now in flower its fine 6-6-5 out... 5.4 in.
I am not sure there of the impact, i gave up chasing it with epsom salt, while i gave always about 50ppm mg, so the plant shouldnt complain much, elevated level.

end_of_the_tunnel said:

I will let Cobshop tell you what he thinks. But that phrase "photosynthetic overdive" gets my juices going. Maybe there is a lag between systems in plant? Think a few posts up he mentions backing off main white light alleviates symptoms.

Click to expand...

thats a good question and there is maybe room to optimize.
i gave more 3000k as i think its the harmless light, it contains at least quite some wavelenghts, green etc.
should have chlorophyls sytem B quite saturated with the 600nm+ from the white light and the chlorophyl A i should have on the balls with the 660s.

Rocket Soul said:

My thinking and a few things ive seen got me thinking that 800ppfd from 600 diodes is not the same to the plant as 800ppfd from 4000 diodes well spread out.

Click to expand...

could be something to it.
if i angle the meter 90 degree i still get high readings, f.e.

1212ham said:

How is the accuracy of your cheap lux meter?

Click to expand...

i posted pictures a while back comparing them, i think it was about a third lower on the cheap luxmeter compared to the spectrometer.
the phone app was even lower, btw app have a calibration function.,you can set a factor, almost by 2 and it seemed ok...was just a very quick test.
that will differ from phone to phone a lot also, well you can imagine.

buddies itself are no problem.
you can burn, more bleach a leaf if its laying in the lens, but thats all.
at least in flower mode they take it well.

the leaf color here make me think its more a light issue then a fertilizer issue, could be related still.

here you see a small burn spot caused when the 4000k where direct on the leaf (not anymore).

also maybe a tad more bleaching next to the buddie, thats the lowest plant and suffer overall least from the bleaching btw.

am not unhappy overall, will give good smoke probably, but wanna max out and fine tune

....snip...in contrary, the ones under the canopy shouldnt contribute at all to the bleaching.....

Some of my thought process is surrounding mobile nutrients. If they end up being used lower on the plant because interanopy lighting, or the "excessive" LOL diffusion you have going on which would also offer some explaination why you saw the issue before, where would those nutrients come from when they are needed elsewhere in the plant? The direct bleaching you are seeing where the buddies were pointed directly at the plant seems to me correlated?

Then there is another piece of me that thinks you could possibly control this by throttleing the co2. Many moving parts and your garden looks awesome so no fret.

the buddies really only bleach when the leaf is covering the buddie, lets call it burn in that case.
loking like this (lifted it for the picture)


the little bleached leaf one from the 4000k buddie above also have this burn spot, but its also having the tendency to bleach as you see in the bleach pattern (mg def.).
oh and please note on there, its more bleached towards the buddie, which is the tent wall side, shouldnt be more bleached then the other side normally (just intensity ill say).

undergrow, hm i left more then i should but its not really a lot.


i could play around wth the PH, rise it a bit with tap water or give epsom feeds, but hmmm, ive tried before, idk. micros, idk either, there should be plenty, especially with this fertilzer.
all i can say is they transpire, leaf temp is 2c below ambient ,thats fine.

Best to face the facts i suppose.....

Your light is above industry standard and application of reference points based on the standard are irrelevant. Shame on you.

maybe it makes click and i find something else, till then i think its light intensity related and read stuff like this.

"Destruction of chlorophyll, as determined by the loss in absorbance at 665 nm, occurred in two in vitro systems in the presence of bisulfite in 76% ethanol. .....
..were ineffective inhibitors and beta-carotene only slightly effective when tested in the light system. The evidence suggests that in these two systems chlorophyll was destroyed by free radicals, probably superoxide radical, which was produced during the aerobic oxidation of bisulfite. "

"Photosystem I particles (PSI-200) isolated from spinach leaves were studied by means of absorbance, 77K fluorescence and resonance Raman (RR) spectroscopy. The aim was to obtain better insight into the changes of the pigment spectral properties in those particles during prolonged exposure to high-light intensities and to reveal the involvement of these pigments in the photoprotection of the PSI. During prolonged exposure to high-light intensities of spinach PSI particles, a loss of a significant amount of photosynthetic pigments was observed. It was shown that various pigments exhibited different susceptibility to photodamage. In addition to bleaching of chlorophyll a (Chl a), bleaching of carotenoids was also clearly observed.......The observed similar bleaching rate of the lutein molecules and the most-red shifted long-wavelength Chl a, located in the antenna membrane protein Lhca4, suggested that these molecules are located closely. Our results showed that the photobleached antenna pigments and especially luteins and the most long-wavelength absorbing chlorophylls are involved in photoprotection of PSI core complex. "

"

• Chlorophyll a absorbs light in the blue-violet region, chlorophyll b absorbs red-blue light, and both a and b reflect green light (which is why chlorophyll appears green).
• Carotenoids absorb light in the blue-green and violet region and reflect the longer yellow, red, and orange wavelengths; these pigments also dispose excess energy out of the cell.

"




maybe no 660nm for some days and see to make some more caroteroids ??