My first organic live/super soil, advice and tips needed

DonTesla · Jun 22, 2016

Mojave said:
Tesla the Lobster compost i just picked up is Coast of Maine which I've seen is a great brand, also picked up a bag of mushroom comosooas it was only $6 or$7. I'll hold off on the Alfalfa if it's gonna hold the whole process up substantially longer. What if anything should i add in place of that?

What is comosooas tho? Compost? Lol
I'm a fan but haven't tried my own yet, or any mushroom compost yet for that matter, but to really put your composts to the test why not create a small batch enough fr one or two small plants like in 1-2 gallons each, which relies heavily on them

Say 45% aeration and 55% mushroom compost and stick a seed in it

Then do the same for the lobster com.

Bet you by the time 2 weeks went by nevermind if 8 weeks went by (cooking hot soil)
You would either love or hate your composts dearly and have a better feel for them

Assuming you have an extra bean or cutting or two which hopefully you do!

Mojave · Jun 22, 2016

Hah yes i meant compost! How would you go about composting the Alfalfa? Just throw it in with some spare soil to sit and break down?
I actually do have a ball python, as well as a few other snakes. But the ball, he's over 20 years old. But i picked up the Mojave name from the Mojave rattlesnake I had for many years.. Lol, very chill little guy.

The Lobster compost was only $17 for a cubic ft.

I do have a few regular undetermined seeds, and 2 or 3 good ones. I had more but i nute burned the crap outta them with that buffaloam i first used.. Live and learn!

Rasta Roy · Jun 22, 2016

DonTesla said:
I'm not an expert yet, but,

I would use the lob compost in one plant and then more if it goes well, you can always topdress with it after if happy

I would also use a full cup of crab shell meal per cubic foot of soil, I'm regretting listening to the cats that said 1/2 cup per. Imo, i should have crushed at least half of it more myself (Neptunes brand, 1/4 to half inch inch pieces) and used double

I would also toss that charcoal in that compost and "charge" it for a few weeks before considering tossing it in to my soil, to be safe

Oyster shell you can run at up to 10% of mix like Biochar but takes up to a few years to really start breakimg down if not ground up into powder slash flour, they are bones essentially
-you could actually toss all these shells under a compost pile and mix so they will break down faster as chucks

Kelp meal you can run wayyy higher than a half cup per cubic foot with amazing results on flavour... Trust me I just did a crazy experiment over the last 5 months
(Up to 2 or 3% of total volume is what the main Canadian manufacturer up here suggests)

Remember
With about 100 cups in a cubic foot of soil, if you use only a half cup, you are only using a half percent of total volume, even less .. I know using 3% TotVol means using 6x the amount, but somewhere in the middle is thee sweet spot, with unlocked pungency and aromas being your reward

No disrespect to my boy RastaRoy here, as hes one of my favs on riu actually, i just think you could get better results if you push the envelope in the right places, not that the "use the same amount of everything and it will grow fantastic herb" approach doesn't work, as it does.. But flavour and yield can start to soar if experimenting right I think

Also, maybe consider leaving alfafa out, and just make alfafa compost.. Imo, this would allow you to use your soil within hours or days vs weeks or months
I germinate directly in my soil very soon after mixing and test cuttings (humid is key) if afraid its hot. 9/10 times it was gtg within 10 days to my surprise

Other keys to this next to no cook style are using no blood meals, bone meals (minus a bit of fish if you like) and adding your aeration after, especially if using inferior aeration like verm or perlite, which are less than ideal due to possibility of aluminum leeching when acidic or hot (vs lava rock / rotted wood chunks / leaf mould / rice hulls)

If you do have time tho, use it wisely my friend. And grow a white beard on that soil

No disrespect taken! I just always advise lower amounts to be safe, I don't want someone coming back saying my advice made them burn their shit! Lol. I definitely push kelp meal myself. Especially in foliar feeds.

MistaRasta · Jun 22, 2016

DonTesla said:
Neem too in my own opinion

The neem tree is very powerful and resilient, with an amazing history on it and when I upped it by 50% I had insane results both health wise and taste wise too altho I did that when I upped my kelp a lot too.

-A half cup neem meal weighs 4oz
-One cu ft of soil is 7.48 gallons
-One acre is equal to 43559.9 cu ft
-4 x 43559.9= 174236oz
- 174236 oz = 10889.75 lbs

Therefore making the rate of neem 10,889 lbs an acre.

200-400lbs per acre is the reccomended dose of neem (Ahimsa)

I personally stopped putting it in my mix and i just top dress a little neem here and there as those are some messed up N rates to be putting in your soil.

Taste may be more prevalent but i can almost guarantee you youll have leftover nitrates if using too much

@Rasta Roy couldnt be anymore right about lightly amending. Honestly just a good base with some ewc, calcium carbonate, and minerals will take you far. The rest is up to you on how far youre willing to take things based on enviroment and such.

Woyaboy · Jun 22, 2016

DonTesla said:
I'm not an expert yet, but,

I would use the lob compost in one plant and then more if it goes well, you can always topdress with it after if happy

I would also use a full cup of crab shell meal per cubic foot of soil, I'm regretting listening to the cats that said 1/2 cup per. Imo, i should have crushed at least half of it more myself (Neptunes brand, 1/4 to half inch inch pieces) and used double

I would also toss that charcoal in that compost and "charge" it for a few weeks before considering tossing it in to my soil, to be safe

Oyster shell you can run at up to 10% of mix like Biochar but takes up to a few years to really start breakimg down if not ground up into powder slash flour, they are bones essentially
-you could actually toss all these shells under a compost pile and mix so they will break down faster as chucks

Kelp meal you can run wayyy higher than a half cup per cubic foot with amazing results on flavour... Trust me I just did a crazy experiment over the last 5 months
(Up to 2 or 3% of total volume is what the main Canadian manufacturer up here suggests)

Remember
With about 100 cups in a cubic foot of soil, if you use only a half cup, you are only using a half percent of total volume, even less .. I know using 3% TotVol means using 6x the amount, but somewhere in the middle is thee sweet spot, with unlocked pungency and aromas being your reward

No disrespect to my boy RastaRoy here, as hes one of my favs on riu actually, i just think you could get better results if you push the envelope in the right places, not that the "use the same amount of everything and it will grow fantastic herb" approach doesn't work, as it does.. But flavour and yield can start to soar if experimenting right I think

Also, maybe consider leaving alfafa out, and just make alfafa compost.. Imo, this would allow you to use your soil within hours or days vs weeks or months
I germinate directly in my soil very soon after mixing and test cuttings (humid is key) if afraid its hot. 9/10 times it was gtg within 10 days to my surprise

Other keys to this next to no cook style are using no blood meals, bone meals (minus a bit of fish if you like) and adding your aeration after, especially if using inferior aeration like verm or perlite, which are less than ideal due to possibility of aluminum leeching when acidic or hot (vs lava rock / rotted wood chunks / leaf mould / rice hulls)

If you do have time tho, use it wisely my friend. And grow a white beard on that soil

Looking like you know your shit though. Out of curiosity, I myself add Oyster, do you consider this in the rock amendments? Or amendments like Kelp? I ask b/c I usually add 2-3 cups TOTAL amendments (like kelp or alfalfa, etc) per cubic foot. But then add in stuff like Dolomite and Azomite separately. I usually do about a cup per cubic foot of Dolo and 4 cups per cubic ft for Azomite. Do you consider Oyster a rock amend or like a nutritional amendment? Also, I didn't think Vermiculite was an aeration amendment. Is that really?

Mojave · Jun 22, 2016

I'm loving this info, you guys are a big help! How are these guys looking? Not sure why the one is looking a little wilted? And the small one is the auto, I'll be transplanting that guy to a 5 gallon tomorrow as I've learned they grow fast and become root bound

MustangStudFarm · Jun 22, 2016

Mojave said:
Alright guys i just got my "Down to Earth" neem seed meal, kelp meal, and Alfalfa meal.

Hey, if you are using "Down to Earth" products you might as well use this. It has most everything mixed in it already. You might add a couple of things but it is very close to being the full deal! It might save you some money also, it is hell buying everything individually and it looks like you are waiting on the mail to run. I am in the same boat, I have to order online most of the time...

Ingredients: Fish Bone Meal, Fish Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Crab Meal, Shrimp Meal, Langbeinite, Humates, Kelp Meal, Mycorrhizal Fungi and Beneficial Bacteria

Mojave · Jun 22, 2016

Dang wish i had known about that.. oh well there's always the next batch. I'm actually getting into the soil mixing, and growing all of it is somehow kinda cathartic.

Rasta Roy · Jun 22, 2016

MustangStudFarm said:
Hey, if you are using "Down to Earth" products you might as well use this. It has most everything mixed in it already. You might add a couple of things but it is very close to being the full deal! It might save you some money also, it is hell buying everything individually and it looks like you are waiting on the mail to run. I am in the same boat, I have to order online most of the time...

Ingredients: Fish Bone Meal, Fish Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Crab Meal, Shrimp Meal, Langbeinite, Humates, Kelp Meal, Mycorrhizal Fungi and Beneficial Bacteria

I don't like the all mixed in one products because you don't know the ratios they use. For all I know it could be a shit ton of the cheap stuff (fish meal, alfalfa) with a pinch of the expensive stuff (kelp meal, Crab meal). And what's the point of the mycorrhizae in the blend if it only works when applied directly to the root zone?

Woyaboy · Jun 22, 2016

Rasta Roy said:
I don't like the all mixed in one products because you don't know the ratios they use. For all I know it could be a shit ton of the cheap stuff (fish meal, alfalfa) with a pinch of the expensive stuff (kelp meal, Crab meal). And what's the point of the mycorrhizae in the blend if it only works when applied directly to the root zone?

I was curious about stuff like this. Like, why couldn't I just use Happy Frog Fruit and Flower when making soil, but I feel like this answers my question, we don't know the ratio of what they put in, correct?

Rasta Roy · Jun 22, 2016

MistaRasta said:
- Honestly just a good base with some ewc, calcium carbonate, and minerals will take you far. The rest is up to you on how far youre willing to take things based on enviroment and such.

This definitely been the approach I've been aiming for lately. Specially now that I've got my own worm and compost bins set up. I still top dress with neem and plan to do some guano teas once my next round hits flower. But I'm gonna keep my soil simple. Just mix my recycled soil with my new compost and top dress with my castings, neem, and kelp.

My worms are fed with food scraps and rabbit manure and my compost bin, has rabbit manure, food scraps, carbon (wood chips in one bin, leaves and cardboard in another), along with crab shell meal, Oyster Shell Flour, neem cake, Alfalfa, fish bone meal, greensand, and coffee grounds. I just harvested my first round of castings and Ill harvest my first round of compost soon as the bins cool down.

I'm thinking my compost and castings should give me all the nutrients my plants need. I can just keep mixing fresh compost in when I reuse my soil and topping with castings when my plants are deficient and I should be fine.

I don't know if the kelp and alfalfa benefits will be the same in the compost as they would if they were fresh...so I plan to keep them on hand for the occasional tea, foliar feed, or top dressing just in case the fresh use of them will make my plants respond positively.

Rasta Roy · Jun 22, 2016

Woyaboy said:
I was curious about stuff like this. Like, why couldn't I just use Happy Frog Fruit and Flower when making soil, but I feel like this answers my question, we don't know the ratio of what they put in, correct?

Not really. There's no regulation that says they have to as far as I know. I know the state of Oregon has started testing some products though. Some companies will tell you if you call and ask. I've called some companies before about this, most are not willing to share their "proprietary blend". I call bullshit on that though.

Mojave · Jun 23, 2016

I think what I'm going to do is mix most of the Lobster and mushroom compost into my amended soil bins that are curing.

My 3rd bin which just has the Organic potting soil, some EWC, perlite/lava rock, and peat. I'll add the remainder of the composts to that.. Which I'll then use to pot this small auto into a 5 gallon, and the rest of it to transplant the 2 others into something comparably sized while the hot soil cools off, (or just top dress them as recommended, that may be easier) then into 25 gallon fabric pots.

MustangStudFarm · Jun 23, 2016

Rasta Roy said:
I don't like the all mixed in one products because you don't know the ratios they use. For all I know it could be a shit ton of the cheap stuff (fish meal, alfalfa) with a pinch of the expensive stuff (kelp meal, Crab meal). And what's the point of the mycorrhizae in the blend if it only works when applied directly to the root zone?

I am not trying to argue or anything, but this might be good for some people. I mean it is a much better alternative to "super-soil" and it is only $20 for a box. I was buying Espoma brand for about a year and I wish that I would have used this instead. Greasemonkey told me to use rabbit manure and kelp in my compost and thats it! That would mean that I would only have to pay for kelp now...

Man, I am about 2 weeks into flower with my new compost and I am told that I should expect great results. Everything looks great so far but who wants to comment on 2weeks... I like to think that I am easy going and I like that you pointed out that mixed amendments might not be the best because I was told the same thing. I saw someone talk about HappyFrog Fruit and Flower. I would chose Bio-live over HF's Fruit and flower... It would be better to use individual ingredients, but if you were in a pinch and needed to make some soil for under $50-100.

Woyaboy said:
I was curious about stuff like this. Like, why couldn't I just use Happy Frog Fruit and Flower when making soil, but I feel like this answers my question, we don't know the ratio of what they put in, correct?

I was told before that I focused too much on the amendments and totoally missed the whole compost idea. Have a look on Craigslist and see if anyone has any regular ol leaf compost or maybe some worm castings. Your mix needs to be 1/3 compost and/or vermicompost. If you are not having to buy the $30 bags of worm castings from the store, you could afford the better amendments. One of those bags might fill a 5gallon. It gets pricy and is why any real organic gardener has a worm bin.

I found this guy on Craigslist that had 30gallons of castings for about $60, and it turned out to be good stuff. It was full of cocoons and it would have been a good way to start a new worm bin, by screening them out. Even though I had a worm bin, I never seemed to have enough castings. So I made some compost bins. Check out this thread, this is the guy that I am learning from.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/greasemonkeys-compost-pile.893592/

MustangStudFarm · Jun 23, 2016

Here is a pic of my 8'x8' compost pile from today. I am getting the idea that I should try to make most of my compost during the summer time! This was from just from one pitch-fork...

This pic shows a little diversity in the pile. A layer of recycled soil, grass, rabbit bedding(with alfalfa hay), some leaves, and some sticks that got raked with the leaves. Oh, there is a good amount of bio-char in there also. Nice fugal webbing on top left. I really think that the rabbit manure and alfalfa hay together is good for fungal growth. The rabbits break down the hay pretty well, so that helps.

Woyaboy · Jun 23, 2016

MustangStudFarm said:
Here is a pic of my 8'x8' compost pile from today. I am getting the idea that I should try to make most of my compost during the summer time! This was from just from one pitch-fork...
View attachment 3715063

This pic shows a little diversity in the pile. A layer of recycled soil, grass, rabbit bedding(with alfalfa hay), some leaves, and some sticks that got raked with the leaves. Oh, there is a good amount of bio-char in there also. Nice fugal webbing on top left. I really think that the rabbit manure and alfalfa hay together is good for fungal growth. The rabbits break down the hay pretty well, so that helps.
View attachment 3715064

I def agree, compost/EWC cannot be understated! I drive an hour out of my way to pick up 5 gallons of good EWC from a farm that specializes in it, I am not 100 percent happy with what they feed 'em but it's still pretty damn good stuff, though I prefer veggies and fruit ONLY and they use a lot of stuff from breweries. I only have 2 tents, 4 plants in each one, veggie/flower for perpetual grows and that's it, I honestly don't know if composting is in my foreseeable future, though, I do like the idea of composting my waste, I have been TRYING to reduce my carbon foot print in this world and feeding worms the food I throw out would be so much better than it winding up in landfills, adding to the methane and smell of those places. I digress, I like your compost pile, looks like their's some good shit in it, ha, no pun intended. Happy growing Mustang, I bet you grow some pretty awesome plants in that. I'll be looking forward to that myself.

MustangStudFarm · Jun 23, 2016

Woyaboy said:
they use a lot of stuff from breweries

Grain is great for fungal growth! So, you are only making 15 gallons of soil at a time? I ask because you said that you picked up 5 gallons of ewc. Its good to have it around for a good top-dress also. Anytime that I see the leaves start to curl or a problem of any kind, I top-dress with castings

Woyaboy · Jun 23, 2016

Rasta Roy said:
No disrespect taken! I just always advise lower amounts to be safe, I don't want someone coming back saying my advice made them burn their shit! Lol. I definitely push kelp meal myself. Especially in foliar feeds.

I've heard VERY good things about Kelp! I know somebody that amends with just Kelp and Espoma Tomato tone and then re-amends with kelp and EWC.

MustangStudFarm said:
Grain is great for fungal growth! So, you are only making 15 gallons of soil at a time? I ask because you said that you picked up 5 gallons of ewc. Its good to have it around for a good top-dress also. Anytime that I see the leaves start to curl or a problem of any kind, I top-dress with castings

Yep, 15 gallons, just made a fresh batch of my soil 2 days ago now and it's in a big ol trash can I bought from Home Despot. I use 3 gallon pots so I usually have roughly 3 gallons left over to top dress as needed but in the future I'll make sure to pick up a few extra gallons for stuff like teas and top dressings as well.

MustangStudFarm · Jun 23, 2016

Woyaboy said:
Espoma Tomato tone

It worked for me, but it seemed to run out of N early and liked to burn plants at times. I was better off with the Bio-Live or even Build-a-Soil if you are looking for pre-mixed. Build a soil is a little pricy if you try to buy in bulk, but it is probably better than Bio-live and Espoma. It dont look like you are trying to buy bulk anyways.

http://buildasoil.com/collections/amendments/products/buildasoil-craft-blend-nutrient-pack

Brew All Around Balanced Nutrient Tea's for Veg - Flower (1/2 - 1 Cup Per 5 gallon Bucket of Water)
Re-Amend your used Organic Soil at 1-2 Cups Per Cubic Foot
Top Dress at 1/4 - 1 Cup Per Plant.

Ingredients all Equal by Weight:

Acadian Kelp Meal
Ahimsa Neem/Karanja Cake
Alfalfa Meal
CalPhos
Camelina Meal
Crustacean Meal
Fish Meal
3x Fish Bone Meal
Soybean Meal
Sul-Po-Mag (Also Known as K-Mag or Langbeinite)
Malted Barley Grains (3 Varieties)
Azomite
Basalt - Local Colorado
Gypsum
Oyster Flour

Adding up all of the Approximate NPK values published for these products from the manufacturer and then dividing by the amount of parts we end up with a very nice NPK guesstimate of 3-4-2. Once we get the blend tested we will publish actual results.

Rasta Roy · Jun 23, 2016

MustangStudFarm said:
I am not trying to argue or anything, but this might be good for some people. I mean it is a much better alternative to "super-soil" and it is only $20 for a box. I was buying Espoma brand for about a year and I wish that I would have used this instead. Greasemonkey told me to use rabbit manure and kelp in my compost and thats it! That would mean that I would only have to pay for kelp now...

Man, I am about 2 weeks into flower with my new compost and I am told that I should expect great results. Everything looks great so far but who wants to comment on 2weeks... I like to think that I am easy going and I like that you pointed out that mixed amendments might not be the best because I was told the same thing. I saw someone talk about HappyFrog Fruit and Flower. I would chose Bio-live over HF's Fruit and flower... It would be better to use individual ingredients, but if you were in a pinch and needed to make some soil for under $50-100.

I was told before that I focused too much on the amendments and totoally missed the whole compost idea. Have a look on Craigslist and see if anyone has any regular ol leaf compost or maybe some worm castings. Your mix needs to be 1/3 compost and/or vermicompost. If you are not having to buy the $30 bags of worm castings from the store, you could afford the better amendments. One of those bags might fill a 5gallon. It gets pricy and is why any real organic gardener has a worm bin.

I found this guy on Craigslist that had 30gallons of castings for about $60, and it turned out to be good stuff. It was full of cocoons and it would have been a good way to start a new worm bin, by screening them out. Even though I had a worm bin, I never seemed to have enough castings. So I made some compost bins. Check out this thread, this is the guy that I am learning from.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/greasemonkeys-compost-pile.893592/

Definitely worth it for some people! Just saying why I don't like those kind of products.

My first organic live/super soil, advice and tips needed

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