MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

Wow, I wonder how mayy people over at IC there are trying to mix up medium pressure and high pressure methodology by using a single splenoid as a divertor valve so as to not have to buy an accumulator tank and its valves/gauges etc. I assume it is the Super TAG guy PetFlora convincing everyone to do so.

The single divertor valve system is a system that was developed for use is used with a Mag Drive pump (the Iwaki MD-30RZT) that only puts out 20 to 25 psi. When used with the misters made for 35-80 psi it works well with a large divertor valve and only a small drippage happens at the misters when the water is diverted as very little water under pressure reaches the misters. It was never suggested in this forum that a single divertor valve system be used with a higher pressure pump with the exception of the larger Iwaki MD-70RZT and then those people were told mister leakage would be a problem as the pump deliver about 45 psi. This methodology was also developed for recurculation sytems not drain to waste, so the caost of waster nutrients and drippage adding to waste was not a consideration as the darinage was toa recurculation reservoir not to a waste drain.

With the higher pressure from a high pressure pump (or a drain to waster system) either a second solenoid will be needed or a real divertor valve, which is basically a three way valve but typically allows lower pressures that a HP aero runs (fine for an Iwaki pump), or an inline pressure relief valve will kinda help. Plastomatic is sold on eBay, but even there the all plastic relief valves are far from cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Plast-O-Matic-Plastomatic-Relief-Valve-RVT-075-V-PV_W0QQitemZ260238213218QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3c97680062

This is not a small valve. It is about 12" tall and 5" in diameter. There are cheaper brands available.

The Griffco Brand in line pressure relief valve is smaller and more economical.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=pressure+relief+valves&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=stainless+steel+relief+valves&_osacat=0&bkBtn=#item5886d66cdd

You do not want a (pop off type) pressure relief valve as is typically used with a water heater that has a lever arm.

Given a choice I would use two solenoids rather than a relief valve and a single solenoid. An inline relief valve only opens in an amount proprotional to the prssure. Meaning if adjusted at 25 psi (as an example) it will only open a very small ways if the pressure is say 28 psi. It will open further at 35 psi when set at 25 psi. That means with a pump such as the Iwaki MD-30RZT that delivers 24 psi, you would set the pressure down around 10 psi to stop water that did not go through the divertor valve. If you set it at say 20 psi, the valve would pressure relief valve would barely open at 20 psi and at a spray time of only a second or so the pump would not build up enough additional pressure to open the valve much further.

Atomizer said:

Hi Paglia,
Could you tell us about your layout/hardware. Things like; what type of pipe you are using, how long it is, the number of nozzles, nozzle flow rate in LPH etc.
It wont be easy to fix the issue completely but there may be things you can do to improve the situation.

Click to expand...

Hi Atomizer,

I using a flexible pipe for gas, can take 20 bar of gas pressure, the line is 3 meter long whit 4 nozzles.


The flow rate is 0,06 LPM for nozzles


The pump is a low flow vibration pump, she produce 15 bar (217,5 psi) is designed for expresso machine coffee


My friend give me tomorrow a 3 way solenoid to put after the pump, when the pump stop the solenoid discharge in the res.

I think this is the rigth way for my possibility now, but i have in mind to mount an accumulator tank one day...

Hi Paglia,
You may struggle to find an accumulator for 15bar working pressure and it won`t be cheap The pipe looks quite soft as you can use hose clamps on it. I`ve a feeling it may be expanding under the pressure (like a balloon) and causing the run-on as it deflates when the pump stops. If you have access to a micrometer you could check the pipe diameter with and without the pump running.
If the pipe expands from 10mm bore to 10.5mm bore while the pump is running, the pipe will store an extra 24ml of water under pressure. The 24ml is enough to run your 4 nozzles for 6 seconds. If the pipe is 12mm bore, it`ll be worse.. 30ml.
Never rely on the manufacturers flowrate specs for nozzles.. they usually lie
Check to be sure the solenoid can handle at least 15 bar pressure before you turn on the pump, the standard rating for solenoids over here is normally 10 bar (147psi)

Another thing that springs to mind is your nozzle layout. You appear to have everything aimed at the centre of the chamber, i guess the nozzles may have a very broad pattern to cover everything?
If not, it may be worth rearranging them so each nozzle is 1/4 to 1/3rd the side length distance, depending on the mist pattern they generate. That way the nozzles will reinforce each other, no nozzles are directly opposite and you should get more even coverage.

Yes the pipe are soft and expand when is under pressure, i misure this for you later

The solenoid is ok because he work togheter the pump in the similar coffee machine.

The position of nozzles as come from the pot layout i have in mind like this:

I can point some nozzles in the bottom and others in the upper?
What you think about?

Later when mount the solenoid i try to test the real flow rate of nozzles

fatman7574 said:

The introduction of ambient air CO2 will not cause Carbonic acid (dissolved CO2) accumulation. One reasons is there is an air water interface that maintains an equilibrium to prevent low DO or high dissolved CO2. Secondly carbonic acid is very short lived so it does not accumulate. Unless the levels of CO2 in the pumped in air or in the room are elevated then the reservoir water, if well aerated, will not have any carbonic acid formation. If youu add an increased PPM of CO2 to the room air where the reservoir is located, then carbonic acid will form and turn to a carbonate and then to a bicarbonate, and yada, yada, yada.

True it is not wise to have a nutrient reservoir in a room where artifically high levels of CO2 are maintained, especially as CO2 is a heavy gas and sinks to the floor where the dissolved level of CO2 in the form of carbonic acid will be a short term issue. It will only be a short term issue because the carbonic acid will quickly become a bicarbonate with a negative charge, which will be short term as calcium or magnesium will combined with the carbonate forming calcium bicarbonate or magnesium or even potassium bicarbonate. So in the end run the pH will not be lowered but raised and important ions will become locked up. IE anyone who uses CO2 should not have reservoirs in the room where they are boosting the CO2.

In a typical situation the carbonate is released by the roots to maintain an ionic balance. This typically means the plant is taking up more nitrate (neg charged ions) than positive ions so it releases carbonate ions that end up rapidly turning to bicarbonate which locks up some of the positive charged ions magnesium, calcium or potassium so the pH goes up.

On he p other hand if your plany ts take up alot of ammonium ion the H+ protons will be released by the plants roots leading to the formation of phosphoric acid (H3PO4) due to the acid tying up of the phosphorus neg ion the ion balance will swing to more excess H+ protons so the pH will go down.

Isn't nutrient water chemistry fun.

Click to expand...

Fatman
So it seems I have been miss informed on this subject matter I have a aero flo 60 in a room with the CO2 ppm at 1500 I have a air stone with a large air pump bringing in air from outside the room into the Res.I was told this was ok 1Would this be ok in this configuration?, or should this be revised?2 What could I do for a short term fix?Would a problem caused by this look like typical nutrient lock out?I have not had any lockout issues. I have had root problems in the past all is well right now I trust your response more than the prior information I received. All your past advice has been a tremendous help thanx

Oh encyclopedia of infinite wisdom, how would one get away with a reservoir inside the co2 boosted room if he just had to do it? Some active intake and exhaust routed outside just for it and seal it off? Or route a long one to a room in the house? The outside temp would be an issue, loosing indoor heat would be expensive, ducting long distance takes power. I would have a chiller anyway but I'd have to add heat also I guess.

Actually I'm trying to figure out how to have two 55g barrels stacked/welded as a reservoir of 100g, so that might make it easier to vent or something, but gives me limited surface area I know. Whatever ideas on that you have, let me know.

The dissolved CO2 in the reservoir along with the dissolved O2 in the reservoir will be proportional to the CO2 and O2 in the room air (at the interface between the air and the waters surface). Elevation also factors in but not in your case as the elevation is the same. Pumping air in from ourside the room will not lower the CO2 as the dissolved CO2 is proporational to the CO2 concentration at the interface not the amount of gaseous CO2 flowing through the water. Nearly all dissolved CO2 and Dissolved O2 comes from the interface not the bubbles. If you use supplemental CO2 and your reservoir is in the same room the amount of dissolved CO2 will increase therefore the amount of carbonic acid, which turns to bicarbonate, which then becomes a calcium or magnesium bicarbonate. As long as you continue to adjust your pH the water will continue to try to maintain a CO2 level proportional with the air, but as long as there are compoungs with a postive charge to form bicarbonates they will do so and therefore nuetralize the carbonic acid (dissolved CO2). Adjusting the pH and adding more magnesium and calcium just causes the process to continue.

However you must keep the pH in an acceptable range, and you must supply adequate magnesium and calcium. The obvious fix is to move the reservoir out side the grow room. If that is not possible attach another resrvoir to a reservoir outside the grow room with as large a surfacearea as possible. For example using hypothetical numbers. If the inside reservoir has a volume of water of 30 gallons with a disssolved CO2 of 1500 ppm and an out side the room reservoir has a volume of 60 gallons and a dissolved CO2 level of 350 ppm if those resrvoirs are mixed you will have a (1500*30+350*60)/(30+60) = 733.333 ppm. This is assuming the arbitrary CO2 units in ambient air is 350 ppm. Using 30 gallons for your second reservoir the CO2 would be 925 ppm. The larger air surface for the second resrvoir is to assure that it can lower the ppm concentration of CO2 as quickly as the smaller reservoir increases.

If no CO2 is used in the room with the reservoir simply pumping air through the water will not increase the amount of dissolved CO2 in the water as the nutrient water will laways try to maintain a dissolved CO2 level proportional to the room airs CO2 concentration. It can become a problem with DWC grows where the peracentage of the area at the waters surface is small due to all the roots as the air interface is smaller so the eficiecy or gas exchange is lesser. The solution in that case would be the same. Add another reservoir to incraese the air water interface and the volume.

The resrvoirs would obviously need to be tied together with several pipes and a cicrculating pump.

The other option is make and install a degassing column otside the plant room.

Here is an aquaculture site write up on making a stripper column.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGk0iT57BLVOgAn_FXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzYmxnZWJlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4MjJfMTA0/SIG=12bur4brl/EXP=1269971219/**http%3a//aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/191fs.pdf

Or here is a premade retailed unit.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3681/Degassing-Columns

They also make a cartridge air filter to remove carbon dioxide from air being pumped. It is simply a cartridge containing granular calcium hydroxide and granular sodium hydroxide. The sodium hydroxide takes up excess moistire while CO2 and Calcium Hydroxide produce calcium carbonate.

Large tube filled with Bio balls, with a plate perforated with holes top and bottom to spresad the water flow out. Set the top plate a few inches below the top of the pipe. Air risng through pipe will strip excess gases (including oxygen if the water is over saturated with DO <DOUBTFULL>). To make the column work best use a blower/air pump of any sort to increase the airflow through the tube. Clean the pipe and bio balls occasionally with chlorine or H2O2 or othr erwise it will become a bacteriological filter also. That really will not matter with inorganic fertilizers except that it will convert the small amounts of ammonium nitrogen to nitrate. It will still strip CO2 even when functioning as a trickle filter. It will only reduce CO2 to the room level CO2 where the column is located.

fatman7574 said:

Large tube filled with Bio balls, with a plate perforated with holes top and bottom to spresad the water flow out. Set the top plate a few inches below the top of the pipe. Air risng through pipe will strip excess gases (including oxygen if the water is over saturated with DO <DOUBTFULL>). To make the column work best use a blower/air pump of any sort to increase the airflow through the tube. Clean the pipe and bio balls occasionally with chlorine or H2O2 or othr erwise it will become a bacteriological filter also. That really will not matter with inorganic fertilizers except that it will convert the small amounts of ammonium nitrogen to nitrate. It will still strip CO2 even when functioning as a trickle filter. It will only reduce CO2 to the room level CO2 where the column is located.

Click to expand...

Thanx for the input I will be looking at the space I have to see which method I will use next unit will have a remote res.

okay looks through the first 15 pages and as i have kids and a wife i had better just ask, what did you end up doing for a pressure relief valve?

you guys are geniuses... not kidding

I have never heard of a degasser?

So if i have a large dwc setup, in a room and the co2 levels are high in the room, but i have air stones in every bucket, and that air comes from outside the room, so it is normal c02 and normal 02 levels... would i still need one of these?

hydroboy27 said:

you guys are geniuses... not kidding

I have never heard of a degasser?

So if i have a large dwc setup, in a room and the co2 levels are high in the room, but i have air stones in every bucket, and that air comes from outside the room, so it is normal c02 and normal 02 levels... would i still need one of these?

Click to expand...

Even with the lower CO2 air being pumped in you are still going to have a water air interface where the air has a high CO2 so your dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid) will be proportional to the room air in the room containing the reservoir. Even with a dergasser outside the room the reservoir is going to want to take in additioanl CO2 due to the grow room air high CO2 levels. The degasser will never quite get the resrvoir level to drop as low as the room air CO2 concntration where the Degasser is located, but with adequate flow and enough air moving through the degasser it can come close. Stop the degassers water flow and the reservoirs dissolved CO2 level will immediately start climbing up again.

In a recirculating reservoir system where pH declines are a problem even without CO2 supplementation the pH declines could be minimalized a lot by having the waste water run through a degasser before it returns to the reservoir. Of course it would only apply for systems like, tube aero, NTF, ebb and flow etc where the water flows through a drain to the reservoir after its use. The pH decline is due to carbonate being released by the roots due to nitrate uptake. In a degasser a carbonate ion breaks down into oxygen and CO2.

One problem with having a higher education and being old and having too many life experiences is you forget what others commonly know or don't know so you do not know what knowledge can be usefull to others until a topic comes up that no one replies to.

Dude Man said:

okay looks through the first 15 pages and as i have kids and a wife i had better just ask, what did you end up doing for a pressure relief valve?

Click to expand...

just pick one up from most any hardware store or from grainger. get one rated to open at a little below the maxium pressure your tank can handle. or you can get an adjustable one like this
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1X624?Pid=search

and then just set it to the correct pressure. i put mine at the low point on the system with a check valve so that the solution that does come in contact with the brass can not go back into the main solution flow. you can see a pic of it in installed in this thread maybe 20 pages back where i posted a pic of my repeat cycle timers.

sounds like you know a bit of stuff fatman...

i am a bit lost on the degasser concept, im not the greatest with building things or understanding blueprints. I understand there is a tube, and you fill it with bio balls or something, and the water pours DOWN? the tube, and the tube can be located above a resevoir.

So lets say that the resevoir is in the room, but the resevoir is sealed? Does that change anything? Can i just pump fresh air into the air tight res, and keep it under pressure, and poke a hole in the lid?

OR

If i put this degasser on top of my res, is there air that needs to be hooked up to the degasser? I saw someone mention hooking it up to the bottom of it? So my idea is a degasser is just a tube, with bio balls in it, and water pours down through, and then some non co2 rich air is hooked up to the bottom of the tube and bubbles its way up the tube. Is that correct?

So if i had one in my grow room, i would need to use non co2 air from out of the room to bubble up through the water, right?

The point is that if you have water with CO2 in it proportional to the air in the room you can move that water to a rroom with a lower concentraion of CO2 and air flowing by and throught it will remove the excess CO2. The tubes is filled with something like bio balls as that spreads the water over a large surface area almost as if it was sprayed into the air. But as the water is contained in the tudbe no water is loss. This does cause the excess gas to be removed from the water. The tube (pipe) is closed at the ends with a plate or cap that is drilled full of holes. This spredas the water out as it enters and leaves the tube, and it allows space for the excess CO2 gas to escape. if the bottom is above a resrvoir or catching container then a current of air will natuarlly pass up the tube. To incraese the air going y up the tube and to allow the bottom of the tube to be attached straight to the drain return pie going back to a grow roon resrvir a small fan can be attached to the tube so as toblow air up the tube and out the top plate holes. The top pipe should be something like a pipe coupling with a piece of acrylic plastic driiled full of holes cut to rest inside of it a few inches from the top. The pie can be filled with other inert objects rtaeher than Bio balls, but bio balls have very large surface areas for their volume size so are about perfect for this type of application. I have seen things like rubber mulch used and different things like plastic scrubbng pads, even the plastic 6 packs holders for cans of soda pop crammed loosely into a tube. For a tub for a large reservor I would use a 3" PVC tube with a small muffin fan or sn mall squirrel cage fan. Install the fan on a 45 or 90 degree fitting attached to a Tee fitting so that water will not flow out of the tube into the fan area.

changing gears a bit...

lets say a person was doing dwc as i am... and the had bubble stones in the containers as i do, and the air coming through them was from outside the room.

I understand what you are saying about the waters surface is where it attracts c02 from teh c02 rich room, but what im trying to visualize is, inside the container since its not air tight but pretty close, and since fresh air is being added to the container, wouldnt that fresh air overpower the c02 air from the roots, pushing it out constantly due to the pressure from the new bubbles entering the container?

I guess the question at hand is do the roots make more c02 per second than air being pumped in by my air pump. If they dont, then i would venture to say that the air within the container would be pretty close to outside room c02 levels as that air is constantly flooding the container, pushing everything else out.

I would think this same principle would apply to a res so long as the res has a near air tight lid on it and a bubble stone releasing a good amount of outside air into the res, keeping the air within the res, that is above the water, low in c02.

?

hydroboy27 said:

changing gears a bit...

lets say a person was doing dwc as i am... and the had bubble stones in the containers as i do, and the air coming through them was from outside the room.

I understand what you are saying about the waters surface is where it attracts c02 from teh c02 rich room, but what im trying to visualize is, inside the container since its not air tight but pretty close, and since fresh air is being added to the container, wouldnt that fresh air overpower the c02 air from the roots, pushing it out constantly due to the pressure from the new bubbles entering the container?

Let me see if I understand you. Your pumping air into the resvoir from ouside the room at enough volume that there is lawys an excess of air in the resrvoir so no grow room air enters the resrvoir just pumped in air. Yes this would prevent CO2 from entering your resrvoir from the grow room area. But your also wondering if and or when the roots relaese carbonates into the water will the aeration cause the CO2 from those carbonates to be out gassed to the resrvoir air then out through the cracks instead of attracting calcium or magnesium ions instead. It is doubtful if your grow rooms is anyway near air tight as would be the case if your using CO2 supplementation. The reason being it would take very large amounts of air being pumped into the water as you are not only trying to outgas to a nearly closed reservoir so the CO2 in the reservoir air space is going to be proprtaional to the dissolved CO2 in the reservoir which includes the CO2 in the carbonate ions that have not yet joined with other carbonates and snatched up calcium or magnesium ions.

You also have to consider your trying to push air with a lower amount of CO2 into air with a larger amonut of CO2. As far as nature is concerned that is a backwards move and nature reststs that quite well. You could circumvent that by runnung a air duct from your resrvoir to outside the room. You need to consider though that unless your system is often experiencing a declining pH would you want to deal with a air duct running from your reservoir to outside the grow rom plus a fan for the duct.

The only time you will have a CO2 problem is if your palnts are taking up a large amount of nitrate fertilizer and therefore the roots are releasing carbonates. Unless yu have a lot of aeration in your resrvoir the carbonates will quickly become bicarbonates and snag up Calcium or magnesium ions. This locks out calcium or magnesium as well as lowering your pH. A lot of aeration will cause the carbonates to be outgassed as CO2 instead, but you then have to deal with removing the CO2, and like I said a gas wants to go from aan aerea of a large concentrated to an area of a lower lower concentration, not vice a versa.

This means you are not going to get your reservoir air space CO2 lower than your growing room airs CO2 with an airpump as you suggest. Only if the growing room has a lower CO2 concentration can it work without you putting more energy into the picture to over come natures forces.

I guess the question at hand is do the roots make more c02 per second than air being pumped in by my air pump. If they dont, then i would venture to say that the air within the container would be pretty close to outside room c02 levels as that air is constantly flooding the container, pushing everything else out.

Nope, as above only if the grow room has a lower CO2 concentration can you push the reservoir airs CO2 into the grow room unless your running a tremendous amount of air under pressure through your reservoir.

I would think this same principle would apply to a res so long as the res has a near air tight lid on it and a bubble stone releasing a good amount of outside air into the res, keeping the air within the res, that is above the water, low in c02.

Nope. As previously explained. To do as you desire you would need to have so much air running through the reservoir it would look like a rolling boil at your water surface. Picture a water rapids of frothy jumping water. Picture having to bolt your lid on rather than a little tape. Picture the few places the air was existing the reservoir the plastic flaring outward due the the force of the airs velocity. That amount of air would shread your roots.
?

Click to expand...

Out gassing columns/tubes make the most sense for people who supplement CO2 and have their resevoirs in the grow room. They also work well betwwen a RO filet and a DI filter. They also work well for thi ose y who pump water up from their resrvoir to their plants as this allows a degasser to degaess the returm ing water, but still the degasser should be ouside the room if the room is CO2 supplemented. People with systems where the resrvoir is outside the room and the room is CO2 supplemented also benefit by out gassing columns as the water piclked up grow room CO2 in aeros and NTF and ebb and flow systems as the room arir it is exposed to is high in CO2 so it is like the water on surfaces is just like an air water interface so the water takes up CO2 proportional to the grow room CO2 level.

Kinda gives you an idea of why there are so many calcium and magnesium deficiency problems during budding. Huh. The plants are not using more calcium and magnesium during budding. There is just a lot more being tied up so less is available. So the nutrient manfacturers are not selling out gassing equipment or even explaining what is going on, they are just selling cal-mag and saying they plants have a higher demand during budding. However, they very often tell lies and decieve mj growers.

makes sense, thanks fatman

Sir FatMan, I know this is a newbie question but when you are cloning using LP-Aero, you would use a liquid clone solution with macro-micro nutts or do you only use liquid cloning solution until they are rooted?


Treeman - your pressure gauge is huge where did you get it?