NO! On Prop 19

mikhail chalecki said:

card holders are exempt, read this 5 times till you understand. i dont wanna point it out again

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Or what? You'll whine some more. It's not like you were going to stop anytime soon anyways. See, the problem here isn't that we can't read Prop. 19, it's that you seem to be unable to read and competently understand the arguments against. You're wishful thinking is all fine and dandy for your limited view of the world, but it's really not very useful when making viable assumptions about how this law will play out if voted in.

mikhail chalecki said:

section 2 B

"8. Ensure that if a city decides it does want to tax and regulate the buying and selling of cannabis (to and from adults only), that a strictly controlled legal system is implemented to oversee and regulate cultivation, distribution, and sales, and that the city will have control over how and how much cannabis can be bought and sold, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9."

11362.5 is prop 215 and 11362.7 is sb 420. what this says is the city can make system to regulate cultivation, sales and restrictions on buying/selling except for people using 215/sb420

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Yes, we know that. That's the problem. Prop. 19 concentrates the power to regulate possession, cultivation and use to agencies and entities that are morally and ideologically opposed to cannabis consumption. No matter how many times you try and "interpret" Prop. 19, that fact does not change. Cities and law enforcement, in general, do not like or want cannabis users and no amount of legislation changes that.

mikhail chalecki said:

that quote is the direct language of the prop. currently for non cardholding smokers you cant hold or grow anything, how is giving everyone in the cities that uphold 19 new weed rights a bad thing? if you want less restrictions you can get a card, it is really gonna be that simple

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Again with the lies. Or maybe it is blind ignorance. It's hard to tell which of you pro-19ers are just naive and which are outright lying. In any case, we've reviewed existing rights under law numerous times. Possession is decriminalized. Cultivation is eligible for a diversion under Penal Code 100. In fact, per legal precedent, there technically is no limit on garden size for personal consumption. The only thing strictly prohibited is commercial sales. So let's sum up shall we...

Currently: Possession, for anyone 18 and older, is a misdemeanor with a maximum $100 fine with no jail or arrest/detainment. Come January 1, 2011 that becomes an infraction which eliminates all of the negative legal repercussions associated with the previously minor misdemeanor offense. Cultivation is still illegal, but first and second time offenders are eligible for diversion, provided the grow is for personal consumption. Per People v. Williamson, there are no limits on garden size and or plant numbers provided the grow is for personal consumption, again.

Under Prop. 19: Possession for anyone under the age of 21 is now illegal. Ambiguous wording in Prop. 19 leaves open the legality of smoking cannabis for parents. Personal consumption gardens are defaulted to a maximum of 5' x 5', unless your city allows otherwise. Cities are also empowered to enact regulations and taxation as they deem necessary without legal recourse for the individual as their authority is backed by voter initiative.

Prop. 19 asks too much for the sake of commercial sales. This doesn't give anyone any rights they don't already have. It takes rights from those who deserve them, circumscribes the lives of common smokers and growers through state policy and makes them foot the bill for it all.

Edwardo Ruffian said:

So what you are saying is if someone in a medical mj state wants to smoke recreationally they need to lie to a doctor and abuse the medical mj system?? I hear the "vote no, just get a card" bit often, what crap. So because I want to smoke recreationally I have to bastardize the medical mj laws and lower myself to level of people who do things like cheat the Unemployment services in order to smoke. What a pity people like you exist at all.

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Yes... terrible pity all of us who can read the law, understand it's intent and are backed by legal precedent should dare to promote a program that offers legal protections for ANYONE that benefits from cannabis at all. The medical system isn't being abused, despite your opinion.

TokinPodPilot said:

Yes... terrible pity all of us who can read the law, understand it's intent and are backed by legal precedent should dare to promote a program that offers legal protections for ANYONE that benefits from cannabis at all. The medical system isn't being abused, despite your opinion.

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If directly lying about having a valid medical condition to obtain mj legally is not considered abusing the system, what do you call it? Using the system? BS quit trying to convince yourself that what you are doing is legal, its not. You seem to have a case of the "I gots mine". Legalizing marijuana is about stopping the hundreds of thousands of possession only arrests that damage people's lives. Its about providing a safer alternative to alcohol. I suffer from no serious condition and an not willing to lie to get a medical card, should that mean I have less of a right to smoke than you? The only thing I see from all the "NO" people is selfish, egotistical inconsistency. Get over yourself and think of others for a change.

Edwardo Ruffian said:

If directly lying about having a valid medical condition to obtain mj legally is not considered abusing the system, what do you call it? Using the system? BS quit trying to convince yourself that what you are doing is legal, its not. You seem to have a case of the "I gots mine".

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And right into personal attacks when your baseless arguments fall through. How very proponent of you. In any case, if you're of the impression that someone has to lie to get a recommendation, then again, just because you don't get the system and think it's overly generous and permissive, doesn't mean it is so. I don't have to convince myself that what I do is legal. The law and legal precedent says so. You, of course, see it as "I got mine" syndrome. I suppose if I lived in a world as oppressive as the one you've created for yourself, I might see it the same way. It's a common symptom of the victim mentality.

Edwardo Ruffian said:

Legalizing marijuana is about stopping the hundreds of thousands of possession only arrests that damage people's lives. Its about providing a safer alternative to alcohol.

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For the record, no one gets arrested/detained or jailed for simple possession in California. Currently, possession for non-medical purposes is a minor misdemeanor offense with no jail time or arrest/detainment and a max fine of $100. Beginning January 1, that misdemeanor becomes an infraction. Even cultivation is permissible and liable for protection under diversion. These are rights under current law for common, everyday, non-medical smokers. And these are all things we have achieved through decriminalization efforts. I've said it once and I'll say it again... we don't need more regulation, we are doing fine getting rid of the laws we already have.

Edwardo Ruffian said:

I suffer from no serious condition and an not willing to lie to get a medical card, should that mean I have less of a right to smoke than you? The only thing I see from all the "NO" people is selfish, egotistical inconsistency. Get over yourself and think of others for a change.

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Not at all. In fact, I've pointed out the inherent rights you have under existing law to smoke cannabis, either medically or non-medically. The only thing restricting your "rights" to smoke is your very obtuse and restrictive viewpoint on the world. One has the right to grow and smoke their own cannabis in the state of California. Under medical recommendation, one is able to fully express their usage of cannabis to enhance and enrich their lives, typically without persecution. Under non-medical auspices, one still has the right to grow and smoke for the purposes of personal consumption, but not the right to sell. The only thing that Prop. 19 adds is commercial sales. Any other rights that proponents claim that Prop. 19 grants are already owed to the citizens of California. You just have to have the backbone to fight for them instead of hiding behind other people.

Its not just about you. I dont live in California, and I do participate in the legalization movement in my home state (if I did live in CA I would vote yes). Prop 19 if passed will open the floodgates for total nation wide reform. Dammit people I want to grow my own crop legally without having to go through medial mj hoops or be worried that my employer or future employer will test me. If you are waiting for the perfect time to reform or are waiting on the perfect piece of legislation or for the country to be in just the right political climate, you will be waiting for a very long time. Legalization will never happen first at the Federal level, neither will it happen without some kind of taxation, thats just simple truth. Your view that 215 is "good enough" is just so short sighted that it makes me sorry for you and those that think like you. (you can reply if you want but i am done reading these legalization threads, just plain sad and pathetic)

How can people that dont even really know what the current MJ climate in CA is like come out and just make the assinine assumptions about people against 19? And have the balls to say that "its not just about you"....well dude, I actually live in the state, I actually cultivate in the state, it is JUST ABOUT ME...thats why people vote. They vote in the hopes that their vote will make their lives better. This whole debate isnt just about Dick Lee either - even though he is willing to sacrifice the 100,000+ medical patients and growers for his own unchecked ambitions of wealth and power. "McDonalds of weed" get the hell outta here with that...screw over thousands a long the way...thats selfish.

Edwardo Ruffian said:

Its not just about you. I dont live in California, and I do participate in the legalization movement in my home state (if I did live in CA I would vote yes). Prop 19 if passed will open the floodgates for total nation wide reform. Dammit people I want to grow my own crop legally without having to go through medial mj hoops or be worried that my employer or future employer will test me. If you are waiting for the perfect time to reform or are waiting on the perfect piece of legislation or for the country to be in just the right political climate, you will be waiting for a very long time. Legalization will never happen first at the Federal level, neither will it happen without some kind of taxation, thats just simple truth. Your view that 215 is "good enough" is just so short sighted that it makes me sorry for you and those that think like you. (you can reply if you want but i am done reading these legalization threads, just plain sad and pathetic)

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Your ridiculous assumption that Prop. 19 does anything nationally is just that... ridiculous assumption. Prop. 19 does nothing nationally and has no bearing on federal statute or Congressional acts. Prop. 19 also doesn't have any provisions in it regarding workplace discrimination or put any curbs or restrictions on drug-testing mandates. Mandates which are federal anyways. The only one waiting here is you. It's probably just as well that you not participate in this debate since you can't seem to do so without personal attacks or irrelevant emotive pleas.

bong ripppppppppppppppppppppp

TokinPodPilot said:

Your ridiculous assumption that Prop. 19 does anything nationally is just that... ridiculous assumption. Prop. 19 does nothing nationally and has no bearing on federal statute or Congressional acts. Prop. 19 also doesn't have any provisions in it regarding workplace discrimination or put any curbs or restrictions on drug-testing mandates. Mandates which are federal anyways. The only one waiting here is you. It's probably just as well that you not participate in this debate since you can't seem to do so without personal attacks or irrelevant emotive pleas.

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Yeah ... I mean ..... Prop 215 didn't affect anyone outside of California.

Prop 19 passing can help change the world view of marijuana, just like 215 helped change the view of medical marijuana.

tc1 said:

Yeah ... I mean ..... Prop 215 didn't affect anyone outside of California.

Prop 19 passing can help change the world view of marijuana, just like 215 helped change the view of medical marijuana.

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Oh goodie... you again. Too bad you don't get any better at this. 13 out of 49 states isn't exactly the widespread sweeping change you're pretending it is. But keep trying. No matter how many times you sing this song, the fact remains that no amount of legislation changes the ideology or morality, and those that oppose us ideologically or morally will always find a way to thwart or twist the law and public opinion to their favor or design.

TokinPodPilot said:

Oh goodie... you again. Too bad you don't get any better at this. 13 out of 49 states isn't exactly the widespread sweeping change you're pretending it is. But keep trying. No matter how many times you sing this song, the fact remains that no amount of legislation changes the ideology or morality, and those that oppose us ideologically or morally will always find a way to thwart or twist the law and public opinion to their favor or design.

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13 states is 13 more before Cali passed Prop 215. And just because every state doesn't have the political backbone to get it done, doesn't mean the national perception hasn't changed.

"People are always going to be against Marijuana ... so vote no on Prop 19 because it doesn't make any difference"
What a stupid argument.

Humboldt14 said:

most of us up here in the mountains of Humboldt County Ca. are campagning Vote No!



Whats your opinion?

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You mean most of those that are growing crops for cash?

Vote YES on 19

tc1 said:

13 states is 13 more before Cali passed Prop 215. And just because every state doesn't have the political backbone to get it done, doesn't mean the national perception hasn't changed.

"People are always going to be against Marijuana ... so vote no on Prop 19 because it doesn't make any difference"
What a stupid argument.

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Then maybe you shouldn't have made it. I can't really be held responsible for the crap you say. Since there's no way to accurately measure "national perception" nor is it a viable indicator for any rational conclusions, we can safely ignore it. 13 states is a great thing. But again, your cut-and-paste argumentation is lacking. The point is 13 out of 49 in 15 years. 15 years later, and if "national perception" has changed as much as you aver, then it should be a lot more than 13 other states. Not to mention that some of those 13 states have ridiculous and restrictive policies that insure that the fewest people possible can qualify. Yeah, our "national perception" has changed so much.

Perception doesn't always equate to legislation being passed.

The majority of people in this country believe those who are ill shouldn't be jailed for using marijuana to help alleviate their suffering. But it takes more than public opinion to get laws passed in America.

The fact is, Prop 215 HAS affected people outside of California and it is for that very reason it's reasonable to believe Prop 19 will have a similar effect. How could it not? We're in dire economic straights and Cali is the worlds 4th largest economy. If legalization proves to be a positive thing for California, other states will most definitely look long and hard.

The mere fact that you would sit here and argue that setting precendence would never affect future outcomes is laughable.

It's starting to become quite clear that you're here just to argue.

So back to opinions and fantasy and nothing substantive. It's a nice attempt at deflection, sidestepping the fact that a minority of states have adopted medical statutes, restrictive or permissive, which doesn't really equate to this "majority of people in this country" you go on about. Again, the wording of Prop. 19 only allows for the collections of taxes and fees for the purpose of regulating the newly established cannabis industry only.

The bulk of my arguments have been with regard to precedents, legal and political. Of course I am here to argue... perhaps you missed the point of political debate. The only thing that's really become clear is your inability to argue effectively.

A couple points:

"Possession has been decriminalized in CA" - No it has not. Possession of under one ounce is now a $100 ticket. I don't think people want the threat of a $100 fine and a run-in with the police(who can then go on a fishing expedition) hanging over their heads for smoking a joint in public. Possession of over one ounce still can carry jail time, but that's not affected by 19(right?).

"Cultivation is just diversion" - Have you ever been through diversion? I have. It sucks. According to NORML, cultivation in CA is still a felony. Do you get probation along with the diversion? If so, I hope you want to give up smoking weed for a few months.

I think it is disingenuous to suggest Prop 215 hasn't helped change perception of marijuana across the country. 13 states have come along, more will follow, though likely not all of them. Sure, it hasn't happened as fast as some would like, but it has done more to promote freedom than any other marijuana-related legal act. Prop 19 could be the snowball at the top of the hill that leads to federal legalization 15 or 20 years down the road.

Regarding 'lying to a doctor' - Nearly every living person has a medical condition for which cannabis could be beneficial. You don't need to 'lie' to a doctor. You get headaches and occasionally have trouble sleeping right? MMJ in CA wasn't just intended for AIDS and cancer patients. What I *don't* like about the current system is having to pay some med-school flunkie $35-150 to write me a rec. every year. That is effectively a tax(fee=tax unless you're a democrat).

Here's a recent legal analysis courtesy of NORML: http://sjcbc.org/2010/09/11/an-open-letter-on-prop-19/

It does a very good job of explaining why Prop 19 will not affect rights granted under prop 215.

It's too bad 19 preserves prohibition for <21 year olds, but I don't think you'd have a chance of passing a measure that doesn't You can always try in 2012. Good luck with that.

Every medical marijuana national poll I've seen in the last few years has around %60 in support.
Polls provide more substance than any agenda filled opinion you might have. Accept this and move on.

13 medical marijuana states = millions more people able to use medical marijuana.
I call that progress ....

Allowing responsible adults 21+ to LEGALLY use, cultivate, transport and possess marijuana is progress.

You're asking people to vote no to progress. You can argue your face off and continue to pretend my opinions are somehow not as valid as yours, but it isn't going to change this fact.

mrFancyPlants said:

I think it is disingenuous to suggest Prop 215 hasn't helped change perception of marijuana across the country. 13 states have come along, more will follow, though likely not all of them. Sure, it hasn't happened as fast as some would like, but it has done more to promote freedom than any other marijuana-related legal act. Prop 19 could be the snowball at the top of the hill that leads to federal legalization 15 or 20 years down the road.

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He's delusional .... If stating a circle is round somehow placed Prop 19 in good light, he'd argue that a circle is squared.

Again, your limited reading is not my issue. Polls say what the pollsters need them to say. And again, public opinion is not legislation. You keep responding with this insubstantial crap about public opinions and polls. Doesn't change the fact that, despite your assertions and your statistics, 13 out of 49 is not 60% or a majority in any respect. No one has said it isn't progress except in your inferences. I'm arguing for people to vote no on Prop. 19. Only you and your fellow proponents are the ones who think Prop. 19 is progress. I'm not the one trying to compare opinions or their validity here or change facts. I leave that to you and the proponents.

tc1 said:

He's delusional .... If stating a circle is round somehow placed Prop 19 in good light, he'd argue that a circle is squared.

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And back to personal attacks. Excellent. You object against my alleged discounting of your opinion and then turn around to do the same. This hypocrisy of yours is getting to be a habit.