Phenos.

tallstraw said:

So, what are all these phenos I hear about? Like within a certain plant type, there will be different phenos. Which I understand, but what I don't understand are these phenos people chase after, and hope for. Are there good phenos to look for in any of these seeds I'm about to buy from Dr. GT. I hope I'm making sense.

G13(nevilles cut)
Bubba OG(pre98, Ghost og)
Og kush(ghost cut)
Bubba kush(katsu cut)
East Coast Sour Diesel
Chemdawg #4
Uk Cheese (exodus Cut)
Mantanuska Thunderfuck

Are there like specific types of phenos people look for in any of these plants? Im just wondering before I buy all these in a few days lol. Wont affect my decision if there isn't. I just want good genetics, which is why im going through Dr GT. But if there are cool phenos to look for that's just a plus.or just call me stupid lol

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The quick answer is that most or all of these lines you're buying from GT are self-pollinated or lightly worked versions of famous "clone only" lines.

As such they should be expected to throw off different phenos. How different these phenos will be from each other depends on the line in question. The various phenos aren't going to have their own names, some may well be "cooler" than others, but its up to you to decide which are "best" for you.

What I would say in this specific case is that since you're buying "from ceed" versions of famous "clone only" lines, then (arguably) the "best" phenos are going to be the ones that most closely replicate the clone only parents. Isn't the whole point of buying something calling itself "East Coast Sour Diesel" in se-ed form, that you're trying to get plants similar to the famous NYC strain of that name? Ditto for UK Cheese, Bubba Kush, etc.

Now, how likely you are to actually get plants that closely mimic the original parent clone only lines in your various packs. . .I don't know. That's going to depend on the line in question, I guess, but knowing what I know about these sorts of S1 crosses, I think you should assume that you probably will NOT find plants highly similar/identical to the clone only parents in every pack. Depending on the line, you "should" be able to find some that are close enough to give you a "taste" of what the clone only parent is like, and I think that's really the goal of buying things like this.

Also consider that unless you're highly familiar with the "clone only" parents, then there is no way you're even going to be able to recognize how similar/dissimilar your from -ceed versions are. So again, it just comes down to you deciding for yourself which phenos are the best. . .FOR YOU.

Jogro said:

Doubt it. So far as I know, there is no "pheno" database. Not exactly sure how you would create one anyway.
If you're interested in particular strains, its probably better to solicit opinions on them (and phenos) from those who have grown them.



I think I understand what you're asking, but again, no I don't think there is any such site. You'd have a hard time finding good pictures of most strains/lines, let alone a comprehensive database listing every possible pheno from every possible strain!

More important, I think you're asking the wrong thing. The fact is, only a small number of well-known strains have particular phenos that have their own names/identities that have currency in the cannabis community. The overwhelming majority of strains that put out different phenos don't put out ones that are so unique yet repeatable that they get their own names.

In my opinion, instead of asking about which "name" phenos might be associated with which strains, I think you'd really be much better served figuring out exactly what it is you're looking for, for yourself, and then trying to match those needs with particular strains.

Pick the "right" strain and maybe ALL the phenos will be a good fit for you. Pick the wrong one and maybe none will.

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Thank god for this good community. Now that you finally understand what I'm sayimg. I finally understand what you're saying lol. I get it. I'll just grow em out and have fun.

tallstraw said:

Thank god for this good community. Now that you finally understand what I'm sayimg. I finally understand what you're saying lol. I get it. I'll just grow em out and have fun.

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I smoked legit east coast diesel, loved it. But he won't give out any clones of it. So this is my only option. Then I researched the shit out of it. ECSD I'd say I'm fairly versed on. But not the rest. But these other ones are thr smoke of legend, and really wanna grow them, and would like to go with someone I feel comfortable carries those legit genetics. And I trust drgt, after reading logs, and reviews.

racerboy71 said:

i like seedfinder.eu for most of my strain info..

not sure if they really get into different pheno types or not, but still a pretty valuable database none the less..

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I think seedfinder is the most comprehensive database of its type out there.

They do have a beta list for known phenos, though its not present for every strain, nor can I comment on how reliable it is.

tallstraw said:

I smoked legit east coast diesel, loved it. But he won't give out any clones of it. So this is my only option. Then I researched the shit out of it. ECSD I'd say I'm fairly versed on. But not the rest. But these other ones are thr smoke of legend, and really wanna grow them, and would like to go with someone I feel comfortable carries those legit genetics. And I trust drgt, after reading logs, and reviews.

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Well, this is a whole other topic, but if you really want to grow "the smoke of legend", I'd argue that what you want are legitimate clones of these famous plants. In some cases these are difficult to get (supposedly "real" cuts of ECSD are tightly held), but in some cases anyone with a card and $20 can walk into a CA dispensary and out with a legit cut of some of these things.

Not incidentally, I think MNS see-ds has said that there is no possible way GT has an unhybridized cut of Neville's G13. That's a whole controversy unto itself (which you can read about elsewhere, if you really care to).

The real problem, as I alluded to above, is that you can't cross a clone only plant to itself and expect the offspring to all be clones of the mother. That's just not how it works. Almost by definition, these "elite clones" are highly rare/unique hybrids, and crossing them to themselves necessarily creates a full spectrum of phenos in the offspring, many or even most of which may not be quite like the parent. If it were that easy to replicate "elite clone only" plants into ceed form, there would simply be no such thing as "elite clone only" plants!

yup me 2 seedfinder is great.

So an s1 (clone of a clone, correct?) Inbred with itself. It is gonna show a wide array, because there are no other contributing genetics. Just itself breeding itself. Sort of how the theory of eugenics should create more blonde haired blue eyed white people. But really it wouldn't, and would be no more likly to create the parents as someone else having sex. Do this same process with incest, and the bad genetics get worse good genetics stay the same, but the desirable traits of each could, every so often show, but otherwise it wouldnt, since normally they're recessive traits people are chasing. I think I'm following what you're saying. Now I'm just liking this discussion of genetics and genetic variation. Especially because you know so much and I'm just sooaking up this info.

Believe me. If I could find legitimate clones of any of these. I would pay a couple hundred for it easily. A grand or so even.

Also where can I read about this neviles cut thread. Because I've seen mulitple satisfied growers thread. But I guess really it could be any combo to mimic g13.

it wont show a Wide variety necessarily but other traits might take the lead. or you might not get the full combination of all the positive traits.

for example you could get a ECSD thats just DIESELTASTIC but it doesnt yield barely at all. or vice versa. the yield could be there with the looks and the smell but it taste like rubber and doesnt get u high.

basically you can find a replica or Clone of the parent in S1 seeds you just gotta run enough of them to find out which one is the "Elite"

once you pop you cant stop. this is why we all pop so many seeds. every one is just a lil different and we are all trying to find the one that truly fits ALL of our criteria of good.

tallstraw said:

So an s1 (clone of a clone, correct?)

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An S1 is a plant crossed with itself. Take a female plant, force it to make male flowers using colloidal silver or another similar agent, then use the self-created pollen to fertilize either the same plant or a clone. Its, in effect, a sexual cross of a plant with itself.

Inbred with itself. It is gonna show a wide array, because there are no other contributing genetics. Just itself breeding itself. Sort of how the theory of eugenics should create more blonde haired blue eyed white people. But really it wouldn't, and would be no more likly to create the parents as someone else having sex. Do this same process with incest, and the bad genetics get worse good genetics stay the same, but the desirable traits of each could, every so often show, but otherwise it wouldnt, since normally they're recessive traits people are chasing. I think I'm following what you're saying. Now I'm just liking this discussion of genetics and genetic variation. Especially because you know so much and I'm just sooaking up this info.

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This isn't quite right, genetically speaking, but a detailed explanation is way beyond the scope of a quick post.

Suffice it to say that crossing a plant with itself one time, isn't the same as incest between humans.

tallstraw said:

Believe me. If I could find legitimate clones of any of these. I would pay a couple hundred for it easily. A grand or so even.

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Well, I think Neville has said that no cut of his G13 ever left his possession, and that Greenthumb's version has to be hybridized with something else. Google it. . . IF you're OK with a G13 hybrid, see below.

We mentioned ECSD as tightly held. Manatuska TF is controversial. . .there are people who say they have it, and they definitely believe it, but I'm not sure there is a good consensus on what constitutes the "real" strain, or even if there is one.

OG Kush, Chemdawg? See here for one of many places you could potentially get clones of these:
http://www.emarijuanaclones.com/buy-marijuana-clones-for-sale.htm

I'd like my $1960 change in $20s, please.

Cheese and Diesel?
http://budbay.com/ads/mother-plants-sour-diesel-master-kush-pineapple-kush-sensi-star-blue-dream-gsc/

Now, I have no idea if these are truly legit (I suspect the Cheese is, but the Diesel isn't the "real" ECSD), but I'm sure you could find a legit cheese cut if you looked around on the West coast long enough. If you're REALLY willing to drop $1k on each of these, and are therefore playing with a several thousand dollar acquisition budget, it should be relatively straightforward to find some of the ones on your list. Just use your imagination.

Also where can I read about this neviles cut thread. Because I've seen mulitple satisfied growers thread. But I guess really it could be any combo to mimic g13.

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To be clear, I haven't the foggiest idea what the legitimacy of GT's G13 is (or isn't). I don't remember the argument, but I think it was that he was starting with a G13 x something else and calling it G13. Regardless, it could still be great, even if it isn't entirely what he claims it to be, right?

See I'd never even heard of those 2 websites and when I search for clone depot type sebsites and etc. I never find anything but the regular seedbanks or sketch sites. So thanks for both of those I'll check em out. Yes, if I could find legit genetics that can be proven from sord from the original. Yes, I would drop a couple hundred to a a thousand or so for it.

tallstraw said:

See I'd never even heard of those 2 websites and when I search for clone depot type sebsites and etc. I never find anything but the regular seedbanks or sketch sites. So thanks for both of those I'll check em out. Yes, if I could find legit genetics that can be proven from sord from the original. Yes, I would drop a couple hundred to a a thousand or so for it.

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See.....told you JOGROW would come w/knowledge!

That you did.

tallstraw said:

See I'd never even heard of those 2 websites and when I search for clone depot type sebsites and etc. I never find anything but the regular seedbanks or sketch sites. So thanks for both of those I'll check em out. Yes, if I could find legit genetics that can be proven from sord from the original. Yes, I would drop a couple hundred to a a thousand or so for it.

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How can anyone "prove" that genetics are legit?

Sort of DNA sequence analysis (of which a proper comparison would be unavailable, and would be cost-prohibitive at this time, even if it were), I don't think there is any objective way to do this. Even if you're familiar with a given strain, I think its going to be next to impossible to positively identify it from just a small clone. You'd have to at least grow it out to flower for a few weeks, to be sure, if not all the way to harvest.

I think the best, and probably only realistic way to know that a clone is legit it to get it from a trusted source. Even then the truth may be murky. Just because someone sincerely believes that their line is legit doesn't necessarily make it true, and in some cases there is more than one thing with the same name floating around. EG, you can buy cuts of "sour diesel" in a lot of places, but I think the diehards will tell you that they're not the "real" east coast sour diesel, but instead some copy.

On getting your hands on these cuts, its not 1990 anymore. Its just not that hard to do this nowadays, the question is how bad do you want them.

Luckily I reside in WA because of the Army. But my girl is the card holder. I'm her caregiver. I do this all for her. But I love every bit of it. And want to get into business with it when I get out. Unless I get picked up as a flight warrant officer.

By prove genetics are legit. I mean as in like if the guy who originally broughr bubba kush to the market(or the strains i mentioned).Made an ibl line, or etc. Or had someone else do it, and stood behind the line. As in thr original guys, or guy, who did these strains, would give a clone cut or etc to people. I would buy it from them if the original breeder came forward backing the guy. Do you get what I'm saying. Proving it to be legit would be subjective because it's just a guy saying it's what he grew. But that would be what I'd need. Idk, from what I've been reading by page 30 of this mmma thread on the g13. It looks as if DrGt is legit. But maybe it changes the further into it I get. I'll start looking for the cuts myself.

tallstraw said:

By prove genetics are legit. I mean as in like if the guy who originally broughr bubba kush to the market(or the strains i mentioned).Made an ibl line, or etc. Or had someone else do it, and stood behind the line. As in thr original guys, or guy, who did these strains, would give a clone cut or etc to people.. . . . I would buy it from them if the original breeder came forward backing the guy. Do you get what I'm saying.

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I understand what you're asking for and why; I'm telling you its not going to happen.

With the possible exceptions of MTF and maybe g13 (both of which are practically "mythical" strains) I don't think any of the strains you mentioned are inbred lines; all of them are unstable hybrids that were never (and really CAN never) be available in pure ceed form. At best you can get someone's inbred version that may have some (but likely not all) of the traits of the original. That's why these are "clone only".

As to tracking origin, in many of these cases, the clone-only "strain" in question wasn't even deliberately bred, it was just a lucky accidental cross that was recognized as outstanding. For most if not all of these, its simply not publically known who the original breeder was. And even if that person is known, for these older famous lines, he/she almost certainly isn't still passing out cuts, let alone in a position to verify the authenticity of OTHER people's cuts.

So, to put this succinctly, not only is Mr. Bubba NOT going to sell/give you a "pre-98" cut of his kush, you're also not going to get him to vouch for the cut you buy at "Clones R Us" in LA. Unless you really go back there and were part of the early circle of individuals who received a cut directly from the original breeder, you can't use this method to judge legitimacy. It really comes down to trusting the source of your individual cut. *Maybe* you can get a cut directly from a person Mr. Bubba gave it to, but even that's unlikely, and you'd still have to trust that individual that they are giving you what they say they are.

Note that if this story is to be believed, "Bubba Kush" is just "Northern Lights" and *NO* direct cuts of the original are left; they're all "fakes":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2qBscpgGEI

It looks as if DrGt is legit. But maybe it changes the further into it I get. I'll start looking for the cuts myself.

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Well, I've heard all kinds of stories about DrGT and I think questions have been raised about the authenticity of some of the stock Dr.GT claims as parent stock for certain of his lines. Personally, I have no way to know the truth, no "dog" in this fight, and no opinion. The only thing I'll say (which I'll say of most breeders) is, don't just take his word for it.

But again, even stipulating that DrGT has legitimately started with the parent stock he claims, that, by itself doesn't mean that his versions of these lines are going to be good representations of the originals. Again, contrary to popular misconception, self-pollinating a plant DOES NOT create genetic copies of the parent. If the parent is a hybrid (and these clone only lines invariably are), then this sort of S1 cross will be expected to throw off a potentially wide variety of phenos, many, or even most of which will be dissimilar to the parent(s).

More succinctly, S1 versions of famous clone-only lines almost always fall short of the originals. In some cases you may be able to find individual plants as good or nearly as good as the original "clone only" parents if you go through enough of them, but you can't always, and you certainly shouldn't assume that every pack of beans will have one (let alone more than one!).

Good luck with the hunt.

Thank you sir. I heard all of that, and got it. The thrill of the hunt is what I'm about. Because truthfully, I don't smoke, I cant. But growing, and pursuing these strains is a lot of fun, and all I need. Thanks though. It's been quite an information filled thread. And subsequent learned knowledge from reading on the places you posted.

racerboy71 said:

think of plants like people..
like hgk said, a big family, you got lots of different people's, some blonde hair, brown eyed, some blue eyed, blonde hairs, etc, etc..
in the cannabis world, some people are after the blonde hair, blued eyed crowd, and others are after the blonde hair, brown eyes... it all depends on what you're looking for, potency, taste, yield, etc, etc, etc..

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I want a big booty bitch that tastes sweet and makes my head explode every time I come into contact with her.

tallstraw said:

Believe me. If I could find legitimate clones of any of these. I would pay a couple hundred for it easily. A grand or so even.

Also where can I read about this neviles cut thread. Because I've seen mulitple satisfied growers thread. But I guess really it could be any combo to mimic g13.

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Or it's just a good plant and he called it G13. Don't get caught up in the name game. I'd rather be the guy who finds the new legend than the guy chasing old ones. I've smoked a lot of really good shit, legit cuts of legends and the stuff I grew myself from seed that didn't have the big name has been the best I've had, other than this one I had in high school that had no name and looked bad but smelled like heaven. Strong as fuck sativa that I am searching to replicate. I think it's to be found in a pack of Sugar Punch and I may have found it although my tolerance is so ridiculous it's hard to judge for me sometimes.

Anyway just my own experience. Super Lemon Haze is a bad ass mother fucker to grow from seed from all accounts. It's legitimately won Cannabis Cups, and even if it wasn't legit, I've had it and it's great. Not sure how you feel about GHS business practices, some don't agree and a lot of people don't like Arjan, but it's a legit strain.

Also, you can find superior plants in an S1. The probability is very low as the plant in questions genetics already were a magical jackpot if the legends are to be believed, but it's possible, although I'd say that with a grain of salt as it's also possible that the plant you are S1'ing is perfection as far as those genetics go and your own personal goals are concerned. That's even more unlikely I'd say though.