Proof of the existence of an intelligent Creator and what His purpose of mankind is

Really did this tool do this on every thread?

hanimmal said:

Really did this tool do this on every thread?

Click to expand...

Yep, and he's even made up loads of his own threads. Just an ignorant dick.

Ug, way to ruin good conversations dickweed.

He got banned.I told on him for spamming.I'm a tattletale.

post 666, number of the beast... at least until i find some other interesting thread. 5...4...3...2....1...

the creation guidelines for the universe follow fractal mathematic properties from a very infinitesimal scale to an extremely
large one. We are the product of intelligent design simply because consciousness in itself (a sole God?) has the knowledge of
everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. some call it the ashakic record, but i believe consciousness
exists outside of our current understanding of how to comprehend, in a different dimension all together. Statistically speaking,
following these mathematical properties poses the possibility our "space" is infinite and in an infinite amount of space (AKA time)
everything WILL happen.
Infinity is unreachable...or is it? is it simply that we are the product of consciousness using math and
energy to start a fractal ...using the word universe seems not to suffice so i will actually go as far as to say divine creation
(which we as humans are very close to the beginning to)?
As conscious creatures, we have the same power of the gods. The power to comprehend, solve, create and feel. The Egyptians saw it and
applied math to their buildings. Other groups who have found this sacred geometry useful include govt organizations and the
FREE-MASONS. ARE WE INFINITY??? ARE WE THE GODS WE GO TO CHURCH TO FIND?? USE YOUR OWN CONSCIOUS POWER TO CREATE, DO NOT LET YOUR
CREATIONS BELONG TO OTHERS. You are alive and thus this is your world, shape it and yourself with wisdom and peace.

Except that your 'hypothesis" breaks the very rules of physics you use to illustrate the order.

Complexity comes form simplicity. Nothing can be instantaneously complex by itself. This makes the "know it all" G*D impossible.

CrackerJax said:

Except that your 'hypothesis" breaks the very rules of physics you use to illustrate the order.

Complexity comes form simplicity. Nothing can be instantaneously complex by itself. This makes the "know it all" G*D impossible.

Click to expand...

If you knew much about super-string theory you'd have a sudden new opinion on multiple dimensions. im not speaking of a figure who stands above controlling everything, that would be narrow sighted.
Im speaking of the fact that everything has already happened and will happen again because of the patterns and math the universe follows.

our universe, the biggest thing ever......right? NO wtf is outside that?
our planet has a hurricane, on the scale of miles and meters...likewise in space nebulas, galaxies, emissions all follow the same form of fractal mathematics that occur on our planet in the smallest increments (like the spiral of our own ear, a nautilus shell, the patterns on fruit)

so taking this into consideration, we are very close to the beginning of a very fucking big equation

intelligent creator or not, you must admit the beauty in the simplicity of this complexity.

What is outside of our universe is totally unknown at the present time. You will probably pass away long before that answer is found.

Here is Some More Info 2 Chump On for Proof of an Intelligent Creator.....by Perry S. Marshall

This Stuff is Way Over My Head , So I would Like Whomever to break it Down in Simplicity so that I/WE can see the Flaws in this Theory, Also he has An Open Challenge for any Atheist to discredit the Information put forth, that has withstood All Arguements for over 3yrs and Counting.. I'm Sure We have Somebody here that will Be Able to Claim the Smartest Atheist World HeavyWEight Champ for RIU, I'm counting ON you and If nothing more I'm Interested in Learning from your comments or potential Possibilty that , Maybe we can talk Him into Coming Over this Way to Debate,

Here Goes, and Plenty More to Come so You can be Acquainted with the Opposition:

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/intelligent_evolution_quick_guide.pdf


The Atheist's Riddle: 30+ Skeptics Attempt To Solve It



For Three Years and counting, I have successfully advanced the Information Theory argument for Intelligent Design on Infidels, the world’s largest Atheist discussion forum.

Information Theory and DNA deal a crushing blow to Atheism, because the laws of physics and chemistry do not account for the existence of information.
You are invited to study, in detail, one of the longest-running debates in the history of the Infidels discussion board.
Verify for yourself: To the extent that science can demonstrate anything, the information in DNA is evidence of design in living things.

On August 30, 2005, a member of the infidels online forum (screen name “wdog”) posted the following on the Internet Infidels Discussion Board at http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=135497&page=1
"I have been emailing back and forth with Perry Marshall, the author of this site
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm
and since it quickly expanded in scope I invited him to come here and present his 'evidence' and proof. You might find the site amusing anyway. Feel free to critique his statements as i am sure he may at least read this since i will make him aware of this thread.
please be polite. Thanks"

My first post:
Gentlemen:

The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

The discussion continued for more than 4 months and 300 posts. At the end, nearly all participants dropped out, having failed to topple my proof or produce any new objections that had not already been addressed. In the course of a very detailed and vigorous discussion my argument did not suffer the slightest injury.
There were six major counter-arguments to information as proof of intelligent design. You can follow these links for a thorough summary of the discussion threads:
1. The objection that DNA is not a code (it is, by universal definition)
2. The objection that information is not real (it is, because it produces real effects)
3. The objection that information has no objective meaning (it does, because a message produces results that are just as objective and specific as the message itself)
4. The objection that random processes can create information (they can't)
5. The objection that codes do occur naturally (they don't)
6. The objection that the nature of the Designer cannot be determined (in very broad terms, it can)

(Note: for brevity and because of copyright concerns I have edited and / or paraphrased most of the questions, being careful not to change the intent of the message. If you wish to read the full discussion you can do so here. Lest anyone accuse me of re-writing history here on my website, I strongly encourage you to go see the forum for yourself! I was challenged by dozens of people and responded in detail to all major objections.) On December 4, 2005 I made my last of 16 posts. Notice that my language re-stating my syllogism is somewhat tightened as a result of four months of discussion:
Let's review where we've been in this thread. I have said:
(1) The sequence of base pairs in DNA is a code.
Much effort has been made to discredit this statement, unsuccessfully. This statement is fully and explicitly supported in virtually all of the scientific literature since the 1960's.
(2) All codes that we know the origin of come from a mind.

Much effort has been expended to discredit this statement as well. Assertions have been attempted that gravity, snowflakes, magma flows and the like are codes. But none accurately conforms to Shannon's communication model. Most of the examples cited do not contain an encoding system, and none contain a decoding system.
(3) Therefore DNA came from a mind.
The objection to this statement has been that the conclusion is reached inductively. Complaints have been lodged that inductive reasoning is inherently unreliable. But we do observe that the laws of thermodynamics and in fact the majority of known scientific laws are determined inductively and not deductively. If you wish to throw out inductive reasoning, then we can discard almost all scientific knowledge and start all over again and use rocks and sticks to make fire.
Thus we have, right here on the Infidels discussion forum, after more than 300 posts, robust evidence that life was intelligently designed.
It is not possible for me to persuade people to believe in God if they do not want to; that is not my job. But one can hope that some will follow the evidence, wherever it leads.
Perry Marshall
At this point the moderator, RBH, said:
“I've pretty much abandoned this thread as hopeless, but recently ran onto the Evolving Code Wiki run by Stephen Freeland's bioinformatics lab. A good resource for those who wish to 'follow the evidence'.”

Mr. Freeland's site doesn't answer the questions I raise either, but skeptics are free to pursue that line of inquiry if they wish. Let's not forget that the entire enterprise of scientific inquiry during the last 500 years has been the ongoing discovery of underlying order, not the assumption of accident. For that reason I think it's more productive to hypothesize design in DNA and devote our energies to discovering all its wonders.
Open Challenge: The discussion thread is still open on IIDB, as discussion resumed in late February 2005. I welcome anyone who understands information theory, and has a rigorous argument, to come forward and present it. No doubt people will editorialize about this elsewhere, attempting to dismiss it as 'arguing by failed analogy' or whatever.
But to whoever says I'm wrong, I say: Log on to the Infidels forum, step into the ring with me and prove I'm wrong . Note: Before you do this, do your homework. (I've done mine.) Carefully read every single post and make absolutely sure you're not just repeating what somebody else has already said.
After more than 500 messages on the board, the atheist position is forced to insist, against decades of well-established scientific literature and every convention in the field of biology, that DNA "isn't really a code." And yet things like pebbles and snowflakes somehow are.
A number of people on the atheist side have called them on this, but even the moderator continues to insist that I'm foolish for taking all those biology books literally. How very interesting that the atheist position cannot accept one of the most fundamental definitions in modern science, once the implications become clear: If DNA is a code, then we have every reason to believe that it is designed.
Having successfully run through the gauntlet with this argument, some brief observations.
First of all, the vast majority of “evolution vs. creation” debates are fundamentally incapable of reaching a conclusion because 99% of the evidence is subjective and anecdotal. If you argue about fossils, for example, the evidence is extremely fragmentary and people see the evidence through their presuppositions. An endless debate that never reaches a conclusion is a great way to sell books, because skeptics buy evolution books and creationists buy creationist books and nobody really listens to each other anyway.
But Information Theory is different. The arguments I make here, and the arguments Hubert Yockey makes in his book Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life are not subjective at all. (Yockey is not a creationist or even an advocate of Intelligent Design, by the way, and nowhere do I reference anything other than widely accepted, non-controversial scientific literature.)
The information theory argument is based on rigorous logical and mathematical definitions, and long-standing conventions in Electrical Engineering. The pattern in DNA is not like a code, it is a code, by definition. So information theory applied to DNA is not an analogy and actually has a possibility of making real progress in this debate.
As you will see here , the only resource the skeptic can use to fight this is confusion and obfuscation. Observe the skeptical attempt to take my simple argument and make it impossibly complicated and confuse people, including the skeptics themselves.
Information Theory really isn't all that complicated. But… it is sufficiently abstract that you can throw up smoke screens, and the smoke screens will work for quite awhile. Notice how tirelessly these guys argued that DNA doesn't actually contain a code. (Also notice that at the very same time they also try to argue that gravity is a code!) And although most members of the board don't explicitly admit it, their argument does ultimately fail. The pattern in DNA is a code.
You will notice that there is a handful of atheists here who do acknowledge that DNA is a code - and that yes, my first two points are correct, all known codes are designed. They are lambasted by their brethren and accused of secretly being on my side.
My argument is inductive. It does not explicitly identify God as designer, it just leaves God as the only available possibility. So a person is still free to reject the God conclusion and suppose that there must be some other explanation.
But what is interesting is that almost nobody on this forum is willing to even acknowledge they don't have an alternative explanation. This strikes me as self-deception. Hey, if you don't know something, why not just admit it? How else can rational inquiry move forward?
As you see here, not many infidels were willing to make that admission. Fact is , "skeptics" take a whole bunch of things on faith, too – faith that science will fill the ever widening gaps of the origin of life question for example. Skepticism fails to satisfy its own criteria – because every worldview invokes a miracle, somewhere along the line.
Another thing you'll quickly see on the infidels forum is extreme hostility. The gentleman who invited me to the forum asked his colleagues to be polite, but as you see many were not. (At some points, he wasn't all that polite either.) One guy said, "If you quote Yockey one more time I'll claw your eyes out." One participant had his posts heavily edited by the moderator and was eventually kicked off. These guys hate intelligent design and everything it stands for. The contempt for religious ideas and religious people, especially Christians, is palpable.
But again, the infidels failed to put so much as a dent or scratch in my argument. Because the greatest failure of materialism is that it simply cannot explain the existence of information! Decades ago this would have seemed like an odd and abstract argument, but living in the digital information age as we do now, with computers and credit cards and cell phones, even a child can easily grasp it.
It is not my intent to embarrass, humiliate or “show up” anyone here. Nobody likes to be publicly made a fool. Nonetheless truth does matter. And if naturalism is false, then the faster we put a fork in it, the faster we can get to the truth. After all, if there is a pre-designed order in living things, then the most unproductive assumption science could possibly make would be that it is random, accidential or purposeless.
Ultimately the outcome of this discussion reinforces what the great mathematician Norbert Weiner said almost 50 years ago:
“Information is Information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive the present day.” - Norbert Weiner, MIT Mathematician and Father of Cybernetics

Where did the Universe come from?
Part 1: Einstein's Big Blunder

If you have questions, post them at:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=9auf7eq9ewTjn&b=SVmvXdH.4ekjbU4iSEHWUA


100 years ago, Albert Einstein published
three papers that rocked the world. These papers
proved the existence of the atom, introduced the
theory of relativity, and described quantum
mechanics.

Pretty good debut for a 26 year old scientist, huh?

His equations for relativity indicated that the universe
was expanding. This bothered him, because if it was
expanding, it must have had a beginning and a beginner.
Since neither of these appealed to him, Einstein introduced
a 'fudge factor' that ensured a 'steady state' universe,
one that had no beginning or end.

But in 1929, Edwin Hubble showed that the furthest
galaxies were fleeing away from each other, just as the
Big Bang model predicted. So in 1931, Einstein embraced
what would later be known as the Big Bang theory, saying,
"This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation
of creation to which I have ever listened." He referred
to the 'fudge factor' to achieve a steady-state universe
as the biggest blunder of his career.

As I'll explain during the next couple of days,
Einstein's theories have been thoroughly proved and
verified by experiments and measurements. But there's
an even more important implication of Einstein's discovery.
Not only does the universe have a beginning, but time
itself, our own dimension of cause and effect, began
with the Big Bang.

That's right -- time itself does not exist before
then. The very line of time begins with that creation
event. Matter, energy, time and space were created
in an instant by an intelligence outside of space
and time.

About this intelligence, Albert Einstein wrote
in his book "The World As I See It" that the harmony
of natural law "Reveals an intelligence of such superiority
that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting
of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."*

He went on to write, "Everyone who is seriously
involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced
that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe--
a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in
the face of which we with our modest powers must feel
humble."*

Pretty significant statement, wouldn't you say?

Stay tuned for Next installment: "Bird Droppings
on my Telescope."

Respectfully Submitted,

Perry Marshall

*Einstein quotes are from "Einstein and Religion: Physics and
Theology" by Max Jammer

Where did the Universe come from?
Part 2: "Bird Droppings on my Telescope"

If you have questions, post them at:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=pUv034T8wTjn&b=hmYqUnUewslrKZNupSxeAg


The Big Bang theory was totally rejected at first.
But those who supported it had predicted that the ignition
of the Big Bang would have left behind a sort of
'hot flash' of radiation.

If a big black wood stove produces heat that you
can feel, then in a similar manner, the Big Bang should
produce its own kind of heat that would echo throughout
the universe.

In 1965, without looking for it, two physicists at
Bell Labs in New Jersey found it. At first, Arno Penzias
and Robert Wilson were bothered because, while
trying to refine the world's most sensitive radio antenna,
they couldn't eliminate a bothersome source of noise.
They picked up this noise everywhere they pointed the
antenna.

At first they thought it was bird droppings. The
antenna was so sensitive it could pick up the heat
of bird droppings (which certainly are warm when
they're brand new) but even after cleaning it off,
they still picked up this noise.

This noise had actually been predicted in detail
by other astronomers, and after a year of checking
and re-checking the data, they arrived at a conclusion:
This crazy Big Bang theory really was correct.

In an interview, Penzias was asked why there was so much
resistance to the Big Bang theory.

He said, "Most physicists would rather attempt to
describe the universe in ways which require no explanation.
And since science can't *explain* anything - it can only
*describe* things - that's perfectly sensible. If you
have a universe which has always been there, you don't
explain it, right?

"Somebody asks you, 'How come all the secretaries
in your company are women?' You can say, 'Well, it's
always been that way.' That's a way of not having
to explain it. So in the same way, theories which
don't require explanation tend to be the ones
accepted by science, which is perfectly acceptable
and the best way to make science work."

But on the older theory that the universe was eternal,
he explains: "It turned out to be so ugly that people
dismissed it. What we find - the simplest theory - is
a creation out of nothing, the appearance out of nothing
of the universe."

Penzias and his partner, Robert Wilson, won the Nobel
Prize for their discovery of this radiation. The Big
Bang theory is now one of the most thoroughly
validated theories in all of science.

Robert Wilson was asked by journalist Fred Heeren if
the Big Bang indicated a creator.

Wilson said, "Certainly there was something that
set it all off. Certainly, if you are religious, I can't
think of a better theory of the origin of the universe
to match with Genesis."

Stay tuned for the Next installment: "Why the
Big Bang was the most precisely planned event in
all of history."

Sincerely,

Perry Marshall

"A Day Without Yesterday" - Albert Einstein,
Georges Lemaitre and the Big Bang

Where did the Universe come from?
Part 3: Why the Big Bang was the most precisely planned
event in all of history

If you have questions, post them at:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=9eVa2SE9ewTjn&b=omL4P1.Lx3OinJcb_5cl.A



In your kitchen cabinet, you've probably got a spray
bottle with an adjustable nozzle. If you twist the nozzle
one way, it sprays a fine mist into the air. You twist
the nozzle the other way, it squirts a jet of water
in a straight line. You turn that nozzle to the exact
position you want so you can wash a mirror, clean up
a spill, or whatever.

If the universe had expanded a little faster, the
matter would have sprayed out into space like fine
mist from a water bottle - so fast that a gazillion
particles of dust would speed into infinity and never even
form a single star.

If the universe had expanded just a little slower, the
material would have dribbled out like big drops of water,
then collapsed back where it came from by the force
of gravity.

A little too fast, and you get a meaningless
spray of fine dust. A little too slow, and the whole
universe collapses back into one big black hole.

The surprising thing is just how narrow the difference
is. To strike the perfect balance between too fast and
too slow, the force, something that physicists call
"the Dark Energy Term" had to be accurate to one part in
ten with 120 zeros.

If you wrote this as a decimal, the number would
look like this:

0.000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000001

In their paper "Disturbing Implications of
a Cosmological Constant" two atheist scientists
from Stanford University stated that the existence of
this dark energy term would have required a miracle...
"An unknown agent" intervened in cosmic history
"for reasons of its own."

Just for comparison, the best human engineering
example is the Gravity Wave Telescope, which was built with
a precision of 23 zeros. The Designer, the 'external
agent' that caused our universe must possess an intellect,
knowledge, creativity and power trillions and trillions
of times greater than we humans have.

Absolutely amazing.

Now a person who doesn't believe in God has to find
some way to explain this. One of the more common explanations
seems to be "There was an infinite number of universes, so it
was inevitable that things would have turned out right
in at least one of them."

The "infinite universes" theory is truly an amazing theory.
Just think about it, if there is an infinite number of
universes, then absolutely everything is not only possible...
It's actually happened!

It means that somewhere, in some dimension, there is
a universe where the Chicago Cubs won the World Series last
year. There's a universe where Jimmy Hoffa doesn't get
cement shoes; instead he marries Joan Rivers and becomes
President of the United States. There's even a
universe where Elvis kicks his drug habit and still
resides at Graceland and sings at concerts. Imagine
the possibilities!

I might sound like I'm joking, but actually I'm dead
serious. To believe an infinite number of universes
made life possible by random chance is to believe everything
else I just said, too.

Some people believe in God with a capital G.

And some folks believe in Chance with a Capital C.

Next installment: "If you can read this email,
I can prove to you that God exists." Sound a little bold?
Tune in tomorrow - same time, same station.

Respectfully Submitted,

Perry Marshall

Where did the Universe Come From?
Part 4: "If you can read this sentence,
I can prove to you that God exists"

If you have questions, post them at:
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See this email I just sent you, that you're reading
right now? This email is proof of the existence of God.

Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy. But I'm not asking you
to believe anything just yet, until you see the evidence for
yourself. All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving
while I show you my proof. It only takes a minute to convey,
but it speaks to one of the most important questions of all
time.

So how is this email proof of the existence of God?

This email you're reading contains letters, words and
sentences. It contains a message that means something.
As long as you can read English, you can understand what
I'm saying.

You can do all kinds of things with this email. You
can read it on your computer screen. You can print it out on
your printer. You can read it out loud to a friend who's in
the same room as you are. You can call your friend and read it
to her over the telephone. You can save it as a Microsoft
WORD document. You can forward it to someone via email, or you
can post it on a website.

Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it,
the information remains the same. My email contains a message.
It contains information in the form of language. The message
is independent of the medium it is sent in.

Messages are not matter, even though they can be carried
by matter (like printing this email on a piece of paper).

Messages are not energy even though they can be carried
by energy (like the sound of my voice.)

Messages are immaterial. Information is itself a unique
kind of entity. It can be stored and transmitted and copied
in many forms, but the meaning still stays the same.

Messages can be in English, French or Chinese.
Or Morse Code. Or mating calls of birds. Or the Internet.
Or radio or television. Or computer programs or architect
blueprints or stone carvings. Every cell in your body
contains a message encoded in DNA, representing a complete
plan for you.

OK, so what does this have to do with God?

It's very simple. Messages, languages, and coded
information ONLY come from a mind. A mind that
agrees on an alphabet and a meaning of words and
sentences. A mind that expresses both desire and
intent.

Whether I use the simplest possible explanation,
such as the one I'm giving you here, or if we analyze
language with advanced mathematics and engineering
communication theory, we can say this with total
confidence:

"Messages, languages and coded information never,
ever come from anything else besides a mind.
No one has ever produced a single example of a message
that did not come from a mind."

Nature can create fascinating patterns - snowflakes,
sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalactites. Tornadoes
and turbulence and cloud formations.

But non-living things cannot create language. They
*cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they
cannot talk. And they cannot create information.

It is believed by some that life on planet earth arose
accidentally from the "primordial soup," the early ocean which
produced enzymes and eventually RNA, DNA, and primitive cells.

But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to
answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'

DNA is not merely a molecule. Nor is it simply a "pattern."
Yes, it contains chemicals and proteins, but those chemicals
are arranged to form an intricate language, in the exact same way
that English and Chinese and HTML are languages.

DNA has a four-letter alphabet, and structures very similar
to words, sentences and paragraphs. With very precise
instructions and systems that check for errors and correct them.

To the person who says that life arose naturally,
you need only ask: "Where did the information come from?
Show me just ONE example of a language that didn't come
from a mind."

As simple as this question is, I've personally presented it
in public presentations and Internet discussion forums for
more than four years. I've addressed more than 100,000 people,
including hostile, skeptical audiences who insist that
life arose without the assistance of God.

But to a person, none of them have ever been able to
explain where the information came from. This riddle is
"So simple any child can understand; so complex, no atheist
can solve."

You can hear or read the full presentation on this topic at
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=mpkuVQZOwTjn&b=qFgC5.AGgcwnMVGDUucqiA

Watch it on video:
http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=FcvCB&m=mpkuVQZOwTjn&b=tHV1NNhctcsG.yphyBhtzA

Matter and energy have to come from somewhere. Everyone can
agree on that. But information has to come from somewhere, too!

Information is separate entity, fully on par with matter and
energy. And information can only come from a mind. If books
and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all
living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.

Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every
dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read,
every packet of information that zings across the Internet,
is proof of the existence of God. Because information
and language always originate in a mind.

In the beginning were words and language.

In the Beginning was Information.

When we consider the mystery of life - where it came from
and how this miracle is possible - do we not at the same time
ask the question where it is going, and what its purpose is?

Respectfully Submitted,

Perry Marshall

jeez folks

give a fella a book on theology and suddenly hes solved the answers of the universe.

its ALL conjecture ALL OF IT.

were dealing with science and math so complex only about 2% of the population can even understand the questions.

were dealing with books, written by men. humans. never seen a copyright all rights reserved to god stamp on anything.

you think its right, i mean sure every single other peice of recorded history is shaded one way or the other.

but i mean humans wouldnt go to all the trouble of writing a book just to get people to do what they wanted.

ever read stranger in a strange land??? now read the unabridged edition.

everything is a rewrite, even the sacred Torah was based on earlier works.

so yal trust in the translation of a translation of a translation that wasnt translated right to begin with.

and u know what, go ahead and blame it all on god, its the easiest way to escape personal responsability and avoid having to think any truely deep thoughts.


i wish id thought of this in school

2+3=god, batlle of the republic happened in the year god, structure of the universe hell everybody knows thats god, where do gravitons come from why those are gods eyelashes, and gravity? why gravity is just the force of gods breath as he exhales towards us.

so why dig any deeper, obviously god did it all, we dont need to study or measure, observe and record, whenever we reach something too hard to comprehend instead of trying to solve it we can just say god did it. think about all that time thats been wasted discovering gravatational rotation, sorting out the whole heliocentric thing, trying to crack the atom, trying to cure cancer, trying to feed starving children.

we should have all realized that the universe is perfect, and that everything is exactly the way it should be, and it was never intended to be any other way.
nothing has gone awry.

now i understand the whole irreducible complexity thing, it means whenever something seems complex, we should run away screaming about witches and begging gods fogiveness for being so bold as to want an actual answer to a question.


and ive takin a philosophy class or two myself brah, and i know your tactics all to well.
argueing 101, never ever argue your own point. state it once, then proceed to shoot holes in the other argument.

thats some serious lowballin man, and the worst kind of intellectual cowardice.
come up with a couple brain teasers then throw some glitter and tell em to ignore the man behind the curtain.
a couple riddles and some schoolyard smartmouth doesnt prove the existence of god.
because you can form a logic trap, doesnt prove god exists.
metaphor doesnt prove god exists.
even the existence of information, does NOT prove the existence of god.
and you know why.

because information is not a separate entity anymore than justice is a separate entity, not anymore than happy is a seperate entity.
becuase these are all abstractions, information does not exist, perception of that information can occur.
but the information does not exist. or if it does it only exist during the brief intervel between expression and perception.
take a rock floating in space. is that information?? by your definition it is, that the rock exists forever in a pure state of information. that before it is observed it exists as information, and even if its never observed its still information.

and if humans and all the universe, are nothing but information, and what with information being a perceptual abstraction, and information can only come from a mind, then are we pre-percieved abstractions??? meer daydreams??? war and peace is not information to someone that cant read.

or how bout this one yourtype always forgets, stopping one step shy to save face.

if no effect can happen without a cause, and the only possible cuase for the universe is a supreme creator, then what was the supreme creators cause??
gods god???? should we maybe worship him instead and cut out the middleman??

no.

if a telescope sees the rock, is it information then? or only if its written down. and was the information written down, or was perception written down.

your still trying to bottleneck it back to god, using deep thoughts to avoid deep thinking. there is no information. NONE. there is only perception. if you write your knowledge down it doesnt become information, it becomes garbage. if someone looks at it, and percieves it, and comprehends it, its still not information, its knowledge again. information is what you call something you dont know.

information is a blanket term, and its a cop out.

you wanna prove the existance of god with some basic "i will always tell you the truth, what i just said is a lie" bullshit.

good luck with that.

where can i sign up to tour around proving that i can niether prove nor disprove something, thats gotta be the sweetest racket i ever heard of

wait wait ive got a great one you can use.

somethings would be very difficult to accomplish, so god did it.

now we finally know who built the pyramids.

it was god.

to quote a not so famous movie

"lordy hallelujah, pass the ammo, praise the lord"



here ill prove the existance of god right fast
mankind has been at war since the begining of recorded history.
indicating it may be in our nature to inflict suffering on others.
and since theres no way we could be aggressive unless we were all made that way originally.
the simple fact that serial killers exist and that people are routinely tortured and executed.
proves conclusivly that there is a god, there can be no effect without cause, so something had to cause our genetic predisposition towards violence.
and since we already know that evolution never happened, and that all the dinosaur bones were put in the rock, by god, so archeologists would have something to do several thousand years later.
then only god could have created us to be the insane, bloodthirtsy, greedy, hipocritical, self righteous, self serving little ingrates we are.

it makes perfect sense

my god says thou shalt not kill. so you better start worshipping my god or ill kill you.
oh wait im sorry, the holy land you say, wow, well we better get to looting.
oh and when we get home and my wife asks, lets call it a "crusade" that way its not murder, its just spreadin the word of the lord, with a sword, and maybe some fire, perhaps a little mass genocide with a touch of ethnic clensing.

then my religion will be the holiest one of all

NOWitall said:

jeez folks

give a fella a book on theology and suddenly hes solved the answers of the universe.

its ALL conjecture ALL OF IT.

were dealing with science and math so complex only about 2% of the population can even understand the questions.

were dealing with books, written by men. humans. never seen a copyright all rights reserved to god stamp on anything.

you think its right, i mean sure every single other peice of recorded history is shaded one way or the other.

but i mean humans wouldnt go to all the trouble of writing a book just to get people to do what they wanted.

ever read stranger in a strange land??? now read the unabridged edition.

everything is a rewrite, even the sacred Torah was based on earlier works.

so yal trust in the translation of a translation of a translation that wasnt translated right to begin with.

and u know what, go ahead and blame it all on god, its the easiest way to escape personal responsability and avoid having to think any truely deep thoughts.


i wish id thought of this in school

2+3=god, batlle of the republic happened in the year god, structure of the universe hell everybody knows thats god, where do gravitons come from why those are gods eyelashes, and gravity? why gravity is just the force of gods breath as he exhales towards us.

so why dig any deeper, obviously god did it all, we dont need to study or measure, observe and record, whenever we reach something too hard to comprehend instead of trying to solve it we can just say god did it. think about all that time thats been wasted discovering gravatational rotation, sorting out the whole heliocentric thing, trying to crack the atom, trying to cure cancer, trying to feed starving children.

we should have all realized that the universe is perfect, and that everything is exactly the way it should be, and it was never intended to be any other way.
nothing has gone awry.

now i understand the whole irreducible complexity thing, it means whenever something seems complex, we should run away screaming about witches and begging gods fogiveness for being so bold as to want an actual answer to a question.


and ive takin a philosophy class or two myself brah, and i know your tactics all to well.
argueing 101, never ever argue your own point. state it once, then proceed to shoot holes in the other argument.

thats some serious lowballin man, and the worst kind of intellectual cowardice.
come up with a couple brain teasers then throw some glitter and tell em to ignore the man behind the curtain.
a couple riddles and some schoolyard smartmouth doesnt prove the existence of god.
because you can form a logic trap, doesnt prove god exists.
metaphor doesnt prove god exists.
even the existence of information, does NOT prove the existence of god.
and you know why.

because information is not a separate entity anymore than justice is a separate entity, not anymore than happy is a seperate entity.
becuase these are all abstractions, information does not exist, perception of that information can occur.
but the information does not exist. or if it does it only exist during the brief intervel between expression and perception.
take a rock floating in space. is that information?? by your definition it is, that the rock exists forever in a pure state of information. that before it is observed it exists as information, and even if its never observed its still information.

and if humans and all the universe, are nothing but information, and what with information being a perceptual abstraction, and information can only come from a mind, then are we pre-percieved abstractions??? meer daydreams??? war and peace is not information to someone that cant read.

or how bout this one yourtype always forgets, stopping one step shy to save face.

if no effect can happen without a cause, and the only possible cuase for the universe is a supreme creator, then what was the supreme creators cause??
gods god???? should we maybe worship him instead and cut out the middleman??

no.

if a telescope sees the rock, is it information then? or only if its written down. and was the information written down, or was perception written down.

your still trying to bottleneck it back to god, using deep thoughts to avoid deep thinking. there is no information. NONE. there is only perception. if you write your knowledge down it doesnt become information, it becomes garbage. if someone looks at it, and percieves it, and comprehends it, its still not information, its knowledge again. information is what you call something you dont know.

information is a blanket term, and its a cop out.

you wanna prove the existance of god with some basic "i will always tell you the truth, what i just said is a lie" bullshit.

good luck with that.

where can i sign up to tour around proving that i can niether prove nor disprove something, thats gotta be the sweetest racket i ever heard of

Click to expand...

Well, Glad, I read the RePost.and the Next. Sorry you Have Taken Offencs to Me Placing up some literature that was meant for Discussion, That was Philosophy 1on1..

And this is the Part where I'm Afraid of The Boogedy Booga Boo Man!!

That Grateful Dead Intellectual Dance Doesn't Mean Much ,

The first Cut was Nice, I thought and the edit:

You Want to address the Post go ahead, I don't Hide behind Smoke/Mirrors it's Me.. I Can Addrees Either One, you R the Post, but You've already Chosen, Right? So B It,


You can't Stand God, Neither, Right? Can't Stand to Hear the Name God. What it means, all the evil Things its causes the World to suffer From? Get a phucking Grip, Bro'. NO matter how intelligent or Ignorant a person may be, irreducible Complexity, Right? You're A Joke.. Who do you you blame, right, Everybody, Fuck Us, Fuck the World, hey..Fuck You, (you're Words not Mine )

Irreducible Complexity

Hey, who's Stopping You from Changing that Sick Decrepit Avatar, oh My Bad, Not God, Your Sick Ass... Don't blame nobody but yourself, I prefer if you continue with the Chaotic Misc. Flaming Meteor metaphors that takes your Ass Out, because you got bad Luck!!! You don't have BAd Luck!! BAd karma!!psst, You Are just Pure/Plain , Fucked UP!! Nobody's placing you There, You live There, and I'm Okay with You living There, I need the information, I have an AVid image of exactly where I could be and why I choose NOt 2 Be, A valiD reason You Are, A Joke, You get No Pity from Me,
but I ain't Mad atCha', it's Called Life tho', Do something About It, and Stop dwelling ON how you Hate the Concept of everything Consumed with God, and for that Reason, Your Life can not be what It Should because the Real World is Overrun by Fairytales, and Myths, and Horrors to unknown because Man thinks there is A God and it's ruining my personal capabilities of being able to achieve things realistically in the REal world,

A Joke,
I'm Scared
Boogey Man

Now I will Send you to Bed with Nightmares, GOd loves You


aggggggggh, the Agonyeee,ee,e

p.s. Thank God for Giving Me the Patience to Sit Back and Read this B.S. before actually commenting, everyone knows Poison Kills Poison. That Inellectual Mangled Garble doesn't Mean Shit, there is Information out There, you Know,

You Got Boot Straps Don't Cha Boi, Well Pull them Bastards uP!!

Brazko said:

You can't Stand God, Neither, Right? Can't Stand to Hear the Name God. What it means, all the evil Things its causes the World to suffer From? Get a phucking Grip, Bro'. NO matter how intelligent or Ignorant a person may be, irreducible Complexity, Right? You're A Joke.. Who do you you blame, right, Everybody, Fuck Us, Fuck the World, hey..Fuck You, (you're Words not Mine )

Irreducible Complexity

Hey, who's Stopping You from Changing that Sick Decrepit Avatar, oh My Bad, Not God, Your Sick Ass... Don't blame nobody but yourself, I prefer if you continue with the Chaotic Misc. Flaming Meteor metaphors that takes your Ass Out, because you got bad Luck!!! You don't have BAd Luck!! BAd karma!!psst, You Are just Pure/Plain , Fucked UP!! Nobody's placing you There, You live There, and I'm Okay with You living There, I need the information, I have an AVid image of exactly where I could be and why I choose NOt 2 Be, A valiD reason You Are, A Joke, You get No Pity from Me,
but I ain't Mad atCha', it's Called Life tho', Do something About It, and Stop dwelling ON how you Hate the Concept of everything Consumed with God, and for that Reason, Your Life can not be what It Should because the Real World is Overrun by Fairytales, and Myths, and Horrors to unknown because Man thinks there is A God and it's ruining my personal capabilities of being able to achieve things realistically in the REal world,

A Joke,
I'm Scared
Boogey Man

Now I will Send you to Bed with Nightmares, GOd loves You


aggggggggh, the Agonyeee,ee,e

p.s. Thank God for Giving Me the Patience to Sit Back and Read this B.S. before actually commenting, everyone knows Poison Kills Poison. That Inellectual Mangled Garble doesn't Mean Shit, there is Information out There, you Know,

You Got Boot Straps Don't Cha Boi, Well Pull them Bastards uP!!

Click to expand...

you know what.

i like you dude. you probly have about the best bead on where im at right now than almost anyone. u caught me wrong here and there, but im sure i did the same to you.

first. i wasnt arguing for irreducable complexity. i dont know if that came off.

second. i have nothing against god. god is a great and wonderfull thing be god real or not. i was taught that god was love. not such a bad sentiment. i dont really even have... ok ive got a problem with religion. but its less a problem with religion, than it is people's lack of followthrough. how almost all of em just pick and choose the parts of their religion they feel fits in with their world view. dont get me wrong, ive known many of the truely devout, the ones that do live it. and it is an amazing thing to behold in this day and age. naw i just dont like it when people try and conclusively answer scientific questions with something that is unverifiable.

other than that your spot on
today was not a good day, and i reckon i was itchin for a fight. not an excuse i know.

but i am, very angry.

i know i live in the house i built. i know the decisions ive made, and i made em. many, i knew full well the consequences. i did choose to be where im at now, and in many ways, theres no other way i could have done it. a perfect example of cuasality, to get where im at now, i had to decide to leave the road i was on. a road that i had previously chosen, various iterations of that back for awhile. but im still better off.

but the anger thing is an issue. im mostly angry at myself for letting it all get so far out of hand, the rest of my anger is aimed at a male i beleive acted without honor.
but since its hard to stay angry at myself its easier to be angry at the world. like u said pretty fucked up. but i dont really have anywhere to vent, reckon ive been venting here.

in the future i will see what i can do about all the whining, and try not to let mood cloud reason.

thanky

read the short story "The Last Question' by Isaac Aasimov. Very interesting perspective on things.

NOWitall said:

you know what.

i like you dude. you probly have about the best bead on where im at right now than almost anyone. u caught me wrong here and there, but im sure i did the same to you.

first. i wasnt arguing for irreducable complexity. i dont know if that came off.

second. i have nothing against god. god is a great and wonderfull thing be god real or not. i was taught that god was love. not such a bad sentiment. i dont really even have... ok ive got a problem with religion. but its less a problem with religion, than it is people's lack of followthrough. how almost all of em just pick and choose the parts of their religion they feel fits in with their world view. dont get me wrong, ive known many of the truely devout, the ones that do live it. and it is an amazing thing to behold in this day and age. naw i just dont like it when people try and conclusively answer scientific questions with something that is unverifiable.

other than that your spot on
today was not a good day, and i reckon i was itchin for a fight. not an excuse i know.

but i am, very angry.

i know i live in the house i built. i know the decisions ive made, and i made em. many, i knew full well the consequences. i did choose to be where im at now, and in many ways, theres no other way i could have done it. a perfect example of cuasality, to get where im at now, i had to decide to leave the road i was on. a road that i had previously chosen, various iterations of that back for awhile. but im still better off.

but the anger thing is an issue. im mostly angry at myself for letting it all get so far out of hand, the rest of my anger is aimed at a male i beleive acted without honor.
but since its hard to stay angry at myself its easier to be angry at the world. like u said pretty fucked up. but i dont really have anywhere to vent, reckon ive been venting here.

in the future i will see what i can do about all the whining, and try not to let mood cloud reason.

thanky

Click to expand...

It's All Good kNowatcha' Kno, you are Very intelligent, I can tell.. And part of What I was going to Say regarding you're Post, until I felt the UpperCut , and then the Right, and the Left ..

I wasn't Argueing Irreducible Complexity, I just had no clue what it meant, and AS I discovered what it meant I knew you had some Vast knowledge about the subject per se'

I Agree with your Position on Religion and People, It is Part of my Disgust as Well....specifically the People's part

&
I apologize too,

I can Be extreme at Times, Blinded by My Passion and Fury....

Was Heading to Bed, But I'm Going To blow 1 for tomorrow's Good Luck that We may Find...