PROOF that GOD Exists......

A cult is, by definiton, a religion. So now you're just trying to poison the well further against atheist individuals by branding us a "cult". Could you provide me with some examples of what you call "outright violence of thought"? I'm not sure I follow you.

Doer said:

Athiesm is not yet an organized religion. Call it a cult. And we can certainly sense the superiority and sometimes, outright violence of thought, that's common in cult formation, when the intellectuals succed in motivating the minions. A certain type of second class viewpoint is already forming from the "First Class." of Truth. A true intolerance brewing if you ask me. A blame and guilt game to make Religion as the culprit for our moderm ills. The ignorance of some the basic fact of history, show me the dumbed dowm mob is getting ahold of the idea.

It's something to be feared as any religion, to me. So, the little a-theist, like Mr. H and mPhk, beware the mob secular anti-globalists. For me any label beyond Self is a power game.

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I am not understanding how a cult can be formed around the lack of believing a proposition, especially when that proposition has a number of reasons, some at odds with each other, for being rejected. Not all atheists, by far, play the blame game. This cult would also have to include those who have never even heard of theism. This is what you choose to indicate when you choose the word atheist. Perhaps skeptics would be a better title, as it at least indicates the the rejection came about for similar and agreeable reasons, and that all participants are aware of the arguments. Even then, skepticism is simply a method for judging truth value. I think you are speaking of anti-religious groups.

afrawfraw said:

It will grieve you sir, to learn we are only aware of 6% of our universe then. Everything we've justdebated is probably wrong. "?" is better than fantastical stories...Of which I have no good reason to believe, unless doctrines ]command so.

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Why would I greve about that? I have postualted many times we are in a Subjective Illusion due to quantum effects. That is, we know nothing. And every new fact we nail down makes us wonder why it is so pat. So, Goldilocks. We are, quite possilby changing the very nature of reality. So, is it a wonder we find us in a perfect place for Knowledge of Self?

We may be making it so, as we go, and there is no way to know. A self-fulling Self. So, I don't think we are in any postion in Science or any other striving to reject the notions that got us here.

Heisenberg said:

I am not understanding how a cult can be formed around the lack of believing a proposition, especially when that proposition has a number of reasons, some at odds with each other, for being rejected. Not all atheists, by far, play the blame game. This cult would also have to include those who have never even heard of theism. This is what you choose to indicate when you choose the word atheist. Perhaps skeptics would be a better title, as it at least indicates the the rejection came about for similar and agreeable reasons, and that all participants are aware of the arguments. Even then, skepticism is simply a method for judging truth value. I think you are speaking of anti-religious groups.

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Yes, we are sceptics and that is why I chose the little "a" form. I believe you suggested it. Let's use sceptics to distance our selves from the -isms. We are born sceptical. I agree there is a big differnce in the sceptism of the value of organized religion and the anti-religious zeal of Atheists. That to me is becoming a cult, with all the bullying, etc that goes with it. That cult will claim all the wrongs of history are to be blamed on Religion. If the freedom of Religion was not guarnteed I'd fear a secular govt where religion was outlawed in the name of FACT.

Doer said:

Yes, we are sceptics and that is why I chose the little "a" form. I believe you suggested it. Let's use sceptics to distance our selves from the -isms. We are born sceptical. I agree there is a big differnce in the sceptism of the value of organized religion and the anti-religious zeal of Atheists. That to me is becoming a cult, with all the bullying, etc that goes with it. That cult will claim all the wrongs of history are to be blamed on Religion. If the freedom of Religion was not guarnteed I'd fear a secular govt where religion was outlawed in the name of FACT.

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If freedom of religion was not guaranteed, I'd be more afraid of a state church.

kpmarine said:

A cult is, by definiton, a religion. So now you're just trying to poison the well further against atheist individuals by branding us a "cult". Could you provide me with some examples of what you call "outright violence of thought"? I'm not sure I follow you.

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You are rejecting the concept of diety and have a bit of contempt perhaps?

Doer said:

You are rejecting the concept of diety and have a bit of contempt perhaps?

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In the same way I reject the concept of santa, yes, I reject the concept of a diety. Contempt? Where do you get that idea? You didn't show me any of this violence of thought that you allege, by the way.

Doer said:

Yes, we are sceptics and that is why I chose the little "a" form. I believe you suggested it. Let's use sceptics to distance our selves from the -isms. We are born sceptical. I agree there is a big differnce in the sceptism of the value of organized religion and the anti-religious zeal of Atheists. That to me is becoming a cult, with all the bullying, etc that goes with it. That cult will claim all the wrongs of history are to be blamed on Religion. If the freedom of Religion was not guarnteed I'd fear a secular govt where religion was outlawed in the name of FACT.

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This would be a cult that I personally would detest as much as Christianity. I believe in freedom of religion, believe it is important, and no amount of stupidity found in the various religions changes the value for liberty.

columbiandruglord said:

Athiests are 400% more likely to be gay than christians.

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Where did you get this number? Also, of what relevance is it?

To see outside causality.

It easy for me to see why we insist there is a higher fate, destiny, angels, bedevilments, etc. Sometimes it seems for ya and sometimes against. Runs of luck stick out from the random events and seem more than coincidence. There may be a scientific explaination, at right angles perhaps, to the questions of science and religion, wonder and depression, inability to control our thoughts and thus our will. The Rosetta stone or a skill almost made extinct by Objectivity?

If we are subject, actually to Many Worlds, we may very well, sense something about the outcomes of all this decision-making a litte bit, just before hand, outside of causality, just a smidge. The sixth sense, the feeling of impending doom, the luck has picked up, played out. I've almost been killed a number of times, just left a little teeth skin behind. Wouldn't it be weird if the only thing holding us back as the Conceivers of this Reality, is simple disbelief.

Well, if Heisenberg and crew got us this far, maybe more experiments can be designed to show some of this.

kpmarine said:

In the same way I reject the concept of santa, yes, I reject the concept of a diety. Contempt? Where do you get that idea? You didn't show me any of this violence of thought that you allege, by the way.

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It's all here, you can look it up. Much in this thread. If you are skeptical about the views of religion, OK. So am I. But, you did deny rejecting God, and I guess you do. God is the concept of Deity. No more no less. Omni this and that, unknowable except thru Self. Outside of religious limitations. So, you reject religion but not God since that doesn't exist, but the concept of Deity. Got it. So, contempt for the concept of diety?

kpmarine said:

If freedom of religion was not guaranteed, I'd be more afraid of a state church.

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Tyranny is tyranny, brother.

Doer said:

It's all here, you can look it up. Much in this thread. If you are skeptical about the views of religion, OK. So am I. But, you did deny rejecting God, and I guess you do. God is the concept of Deity. No more no less. Omni this and that, unknowable except thru Self. Outside of religious limitations. So, you reject religion but not God since that doesn't exist, but the concept of Deity. Got it. So, contempt for the concept of diety?

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I looked, didn't see any violence threatened, though I may have missed it. As far as what I do and do not dismiss. I misspoke I think, I was trying to convey that I didn't reject "god" to become an atheist. You seemed to be implying one must reject the concept of "god" to be an atheist. I was an atheist, therefore I rejected it. I was trying to show you that one can be an atheist without even knowing of this "god" idea. As far as contempt for the concept of a deity. I do have contempt for such a thing, only in the "beneath consideration,worthless" sense of it though.

Roger that, kp, it's the venom in the words that I refer to as violence of thought. Not the threat, though one was vaguely implied, at some point, not by you, of course.

Can you see how a deep experience via drugs or war chanting, or whatever can be so overwhelming to be attributed to diety?
And that luck favors the prepared and so the hand of Providence guides our Nation?

Doer said:

Roger that, kp, it's the venom in the words that I refer to as violence of thought. Not the threat, though one was vaguely implied, at some point, not by you, of course.

Can you see how a deep experience via drugs or war chanting, or whatever can be so overwhelming to be attributed to diety?
And that luck favors the prepared and so the hand of Providence guides our Nation?

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Oh, I see what you're saying, It is a topic that gets pretty heated. The whole god debate has had me wondering lately, even more so since you brought it up here. When I see the world around me, I don't see god. As a child, I never saw god in something until I was instructed that I should. I can't help but wonder if there's a particular personality trait that makes you more inclined to believe in such a thing. Ultimately, religion did originate somewhere. I wonder if, before science, people were just more inclined to fabricate a god on their own for lack of better explanations. I don't think it's the default, but I do think it was much easier to go along with theism due to lack of science.

When I was 9, I was picking my nose in church looking at the girl's amazing shoes and those lacy ankles. I was in a line to be "saved." Up at the alter of the little methodist church. I remember my Dad had nudged me, and I went forward, but I was thinking about Super Man, I remember and then those ankles. This girl was tall but I dared not look up. Back to Super Man. OK, my turn. What? Do you blelh blahd dha goa bla? Sure. Took two steps and collapsed into a puddle on overwhelming tears of joy. I was truly smacked thoughtless now, just a pure Self. I had no idea, but is was completely compelling. And I vaguely remember my dad saying, no, he's not embarrassed, just leave him alone.

Did this happening in my young life in anyway de-rail my growing incredulity of it all, the sheer preposterous nature of the claims? No, I never even connected the experience to the lacy ankles much less the church. But, I didn't question it's substance. Like I don't question lace. The quest to dispute these competing claims of religion has me here.

I'm not religious, but during my later training of a non-christian nature, I was quite surprised to encounter the same experience at certain times. There are names for it, for me it's Self. Also, I have training myself to attempt this experience constantly, without the waterworks, please, to various degrees of success. But, it is ever present, for me, now this opportunity to duck beyond the mind cloud. I say it's Self. I would say you also have it, but, how would I really know?

When you realize that who you are, is merely everyone that you have ever met... the peices that you choose to take, the pieces that you choose to leave. You realize that you aren't who you really are, who you really are is the choices you make. You are choice, you are your own fate, any personality trait you have acquired over time is one that you have learned from another human.

If when you say, "true self" is the same feeling as the feeling of, infinite time, time stop, being born, being in the moment... is the definition of what you are trying to describe, i can understand. Meditation is the only form of mind therapy that can help you achieve "no thought" which is where we originated from. Understanding that when you achieve this "no thought" which from my experience can also be achieved with another human, there is a unique feeling that happens when this "no thinking" surfaces.

In some, they call this experience enlightenment, some call it god, some call it the spirit realm, some call it the dream break. Some are true to themselves about what they know, and what they do not know. They understand that as soon as they give definition to this type of experience, they change it from what it was (an unexplainable experience) into what you want it to be (enlightenment,god,spirit realm, dream break) -which is exactly what it is not.

If i have any advice to give, it would be to stop pretending you know things that you do not know... things you do not know, are ideas that you have which hold no basis for the burden of proof beyond our own fallible thought processes.

I only know one thing.

Yup, goddidit...