Question about diluting nutes for ppm, feedcharts and additives

G

Greenhorn_Greenthumb

Member
A lot of people say to run nutes at ~50% strength to avoid nute burn, and after running and following the GH expert feed chart https://gh.growgh.com/docs/Feedcharts/GH_FloraSeries-REC_03216am.pdf (which seemingly includes virtually every product) I’ve seen why. If you were to run this feed chart at 100% your ppms would be off the chart and I could see nute burn as the likely outcome.
ive done up a few pre-made ratios in 50, 60, 65, 70% etc so control my ppms but when doing this i Just dilute every single ingredient equally down the chart (50% recommended micro and 50% recommended floralicious plus for example). But it seems logical that only some of these ingredients could, or maybe even SHOULD, still be ran at full strength and NOT diluted down to 50% for the sake of ppms.
if you had to put all the the GH lineup into two categories, can/should be diluted to meet desired ppm range, and doesn’t need to be diluted/should always be ran at full strength, how would those categories look?

i have hunches, listed below. Please correct any that are wrong or add any input. I’m not sure about any of them and could definitely use correcting if any are wrong but the ones I’m especially unsure about have question marks. I think this could be an interesting discussion about the effects of specific nutrients and additives.

FloraMicro - dilute
FloraGrow - dilute
FloraBloom - dilute
RapidStart - no need to dilute/ full strength
Liquid KoolBloom - dilute
Floralicious Plus - no need to dilute/ full strength
ArmorSi - dilute ???
Diamond Nectar - dilute ???
FloraBlend - no need to dilute/ full strength
CalMag - dilute
FloraNectar - no need to dilute/ full strength
Dry KoolBloom - dilute

How does everyone categorize their nutes and additives when you need to dilute your mix?
 
xtsho

xtsho

Well-Known Member
You don't need all that stuff. I've used GH in the past. All I used was the Micro, Grow, and Bloom. Never had a problem with overfeeding. Skip all those unnecessary additives. And if you think GH has you feeding at high ppm's take a look at the FoxFarms feeding chart. It's insane and there's a ton of people posting on this site with pictures of burnt up plants from following it.

And what the hell is GH expert feed chart? An expert doesn't need to follow some chart. All those unnecessary additives and feed charts are for people that don't know how to grow and think they need all those products with silly labels and even sillier names. There's nothing expert about it. It should be called the Novice chart because experts don't use all that crap.

I use calcium nitrate, a micronutrient blend, and monopotassium phosphate in dry form. I don't use any silly feed chart. I use a measuring spoon and a five gallon bucket. Healthy plants from start to finish. Instead of worrying about which of those dozen bottles should be diluted you should be asking yourself "Do you even need them?".
 
WintersBones

WintersBones

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
A lot of people say to run nutes at ~50% strength to avoid nute burn, and after running and following the GH expert feed chart https://gh.growgh.com/docs/Feedcharts/GH_FloraSeries-REC_03216am.pdf (which seemingly includes virtually every product) I’ve seen why. If you were to run this feed chart at 100% your ppms would be off the chart and I could see nute burn as the likely outcome.
ive done up a few pre-made ratios in 50, 60, 65, 70% etc so control my ppms but when doing this i Just dilute every single ingredient equally down the chart (50% recommended micro and 50% recommended floralicious plus for example). But it seems logical that only some of these ingredients could, or maybe even SHOULD, still be ran at full strength and NOT diluted down to 50% for the sake of ppms.
if you had to put all the the GH lineup into two categories, can/should be diluted to meet desired ppm range, and doesn’t need to be diluted/should always be ran at full strength, how would those categories look?

i have hunches, listed below. Please correct any that are wrong or add any input. I’m not sure about any of them and could definitely use correcting if any are wrong but the ones I’m especially unsure about have question marks. I think this could be an interesting discussion about the effects of specific nutrients and additives.

FloraMicro - dilute
FloraGrow - dilute
FloraBloom - dilute
RapidStart - no need to dilute/ full strength
Liquid KoolBloom - dilute
Floralicious Plus - no need to dilute/ full strength
ArmorSi - dilute ???
Diamond Nectar - dilute ???
FloraBlend - no need to dilute/ full strength
CalMag - dilute
FloraNectar - no need to dilute/ full strength
Dry KoolBloom - dilute

How does everyone categorize their nutes and additives when you need to dilute your mix?
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So I've been doing a lot of reading on this also. I chose to go with GH flora series because it's known to be good at adjusting/adding to/subtracting, but i only use the trio, CalMag, Nectar and KoolBloom. I might add rapid start, ArmorSi and floralious (in that priority) down the road depending on how my current grow goes and what my budget is. Beyond the flora trio and CalMag all that other stuff is bacailly above and beyond, all adds good stuff no doubt that will help your plants, but isn't 100% required either. you can adjust how much you're feeding your plant as it requires, the important thing to be aware of is the overall ratios of the various nutrients and your PPM/EC/ pH you give it. For example there's people who only only use the Micro and Bloom and cut the Gro entirely and can provide a proper ratio of nutrients. I started doing this recently because i found my plants were getting too much N because my plants are CalMag hungry, and that also adds extra N into the mix. There's a bunch of different feeding charts and guidelines out there based on this nutrient line and most suggest feeding at a lower PPM than GH and go from there. just have to figure out which one suits your grow style, medium and plant needs. Good luck!
 
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G

Greenhorn_Greenthumb

Member
xtsho said:
And what the hell is GH expert feed chart? An expert doesn't need to follow some chart. All those unnecessary additives and feed charts are for people that don't know how to grow and think they need all those products with silly labels and even sillier names. There's nothing expert about it. It should be called the Novice chart because experts don't use all that crap.
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the irony of that name hasn’t escaped me and I’ve had practically the exact same thoughts.
as a total novice going into this my mindset was pretty much “let’s throw everything at them and give me my best chances of success until I’m an expert and can develop my own formulation, likely removing some of these. This ‘expert’ chart seems like a good place to start”
 
S

spek9

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
the irony of that name hasn’t escaped me and I’ve had practically the exact same thoughts.
as a total novice going into this my mindset was pretty much “let’s throw everything at them and give me my best chances of success until I’m an expert and can develop my own formulation, likely removing some of these”
Click to expand...
Experts became experts because they learned that less is more. You'll be ahead of the game by skipping the learning process and just listen to the experts who are telling you that less is more, and that using all of these products with fancy names doesn't add a lick of benefit. They are money and time wasters, and even often lead to unnecessary overfeeding problems ;)
 
G

Greenhorn_Greenthumb

Member
spek9 said:
Experts became experts because they learned that less is more. You'll be ahead of the game by skipping the learning process and just listen to the experts who are telling you that less is more, and that using all of these products with fancy names doesn't add a lick of benefit. They are money and time wasters, and even often lead to unnecessary overfeeding problems ;)
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Can’t deny the number of people that do rave about things like Floralicious Plus and the benefits of ArmorSi in the right conditions though. And both of those don’t show up in the chart until you expand out to their “expert” list
 
WintersBones

WintersBones

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
the irony of that name hasn’t escaped me and I’ve had practically the exact same thoughts.
as a total novice going into this my mindset was pretty much “let’s throw everything at them and give me my best chances of success until I’m an expert and can develop my own formulation, likely removing some of these. This ‘expert’ chart seems like a good place to start”
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My understanding is that chart is literally for experts, like high tech professional greenhouse hydroponics that create the perfect growing conditions. Not applicable to 99.9% of us regular growers lol.
 
S

spek9

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
Can’t deny the number of people that do rave about things like Floralicious Plus and the benefits of ArmorSi in the right conditions though. And both of those don’t show up in the chart until you expand out to their “expert” list
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Oddly, I've been growing indoors for almost eight years, and have been on this site the same length of time, and I don't really recall hearing about either one. None of my in-person grower friends have mentioned it either.
 
G

Greenhorn_Greenthumb

Member
spek9 said:
Oddly, I've been growing indoors for almost eight years, and have been on this site the same length of time, and I don't really recall hearing about either one. None of my in-person grower friends have mentioned it either.
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weird
like I said, I’m a total novice at this, but I didn’t have to venture down the rabbit hole very much before it became pretty clear that a lot of people really liked these products
 
S

spek9

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
weird
like I said, I’m a total novice at this, but I didn’t have to venture down the rabbit hole very much before it became pretty clear that a lot of people really liked these products
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It can be overwhelming to be honest. I do appreciate that. I've found that just because a bunch of people like something, it doesn't make the product beneficial. Perhaps it does work for them. Perhaps it's only a perceived benefit. Who knows. All I know for absolute certain, is that a plant needs 17 elements and nutrients to live healthily, combined with a good, stable environment, and good medium.

Here's a good paper from the Potato State University: https://www.extension.uidaho.edu/publishing/pdf/CIS/CIS1124.pdf on the nutrients and elements all plants need. Cannabis is no different. Different plants require varying levels of each macro/micronutrient.

Often what nutrient companies do, is put a nutrient that its main line of product already contains at a higher concentration into a separate bottle, add in some microbes or something, and call that a separate beneficial product. All the while all you had to do was up the "bloom" portion of the base three part mix slightly (for example).

Remember that nutrient companies are after your money. They don't want you just using their base line, they want to sell you everything, as often as possible (that's why most will recommend cutting their recommended dosages in half, or at least reduce by 1/3).
 
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S

spek9

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
weird
like I said, I’m a total novice at this, but I didn’t have to venture down the rabbit hole very much before it became pretty clear that a lot of people really liked these products
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Instead of focusing research on actual products, instead start doing research on each nutrient. By doing that, you'll be able to actually understand what's in these extra products.

Here is an excellent resource to get you going. I refer to this page quite regularly: https://free-the-tree.com/indoor-growing/marijuana-macro-micro-nutrients/

Be sure to click on the "How to spot and solve..." buttons as you go along.
 
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rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
weird
like I said, I’m a total novice at this, but I didn’t have to venture down the rabbit hole very much before it became pretty clear that a lot of people really liked these products
Click to expand...
assuming you are going to grow for a while,
start off with base nutes and cal/mg (if needed) and do a grow
grow #2 add one additive (which ever one you think will do the most good). see what happens.
grow #3 add another additive. see what happens.

pretty soon you will realize most of the additives dont do much if anything.

i like Epsom salts (for the sulfur) and a kelp/humic mix (for all the benefits of kelp, and the chelating ability of humics)
 
G

Greenhorn_Greenthumb

Member
rkymtnman said:
assuming you are going to grow for a while,
start off with base nutes and cal/mg (if needed) and do a grow
grow #2 add one additive (which ever one you think will do the most good). see what happens.
grow #3 add another additive. see what happens.

pretty soon you will realize most of the additives dont do much if anything.

i like Epsom salts (for the sulfur) and a kelp/humic mix (for all the benefits of kelp, and the chelating ability of humics)
Click to expand...
humics and kelp seem to be favorites if anyone is going to add additives, and silica if people are worried about either bud weight or environmental resistance

and correct me if I’m wrong but in the GH lineup Diamond Nectar is the big humi choice and Floralicious Plus is my kelp, right? I know FL+ is some thick nasty smelling natural shit
 
rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
humics and kelp seem to be favorites if anyone is going to add additives, and silica if people are worried about either bud weight or environmental resistance

and correct me if I’m wrong but in the GH lineup Diamond Nectar is the big humi choice and Floralicious Plus is my kelp, right? I know FL+ is some thick nasty smelling natural shit
Click to expand...
i've tried Armor Si and i still don't know if it works or not to be honest. the only thing i can tell you for sure is that if you give it to a plant, it will show up in a tissue sample. so it is at least "used" by the plant but to what extent??

and skip those 2 bottles: BioAg Cyto Plus it's a kelp/humic mix in a powder. 1/2 gram per gallon. very cheap to use. add to warm water and shake well.
 
G

Greenhorn_Greenthumb

Member
rkymtnman said:
i've tried Armor Si and i still don't know if it works or not to be honest. the only thing i can tell you for sure is that if you give it to a plant, it will show up in a tissue sample. so it is at least "used" by the plant but to what extent??

and skip those 2 bottles: BioAg Cyto Plus it's a kelp/humic mix in a powder. 1/2 gram per gallon. very cheap to use. add to warm water and shake well.
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nice tip, thanks!
yeah the research I’ve done into all these products have gone further than just reading the marketing material gh put out. I’ve tried to figure out the key ingredient or benefit to each and then do separate digging into the benefits of that specifically more than the branded product itself (so if Diamond Nectar is humic acids, why do I want humic acids?)

ive found enough reviews, opinions, and papers on a few of the additives to convince me I probably do want them, although maybe not GH‘s specific version of them.
if I had to say the ones that I’m currently using that seem like they might be the first ones cut it would probably be the FloraBlend (pretty much some type of compost tea?) and the FloraNectar (molasses)
would those be the first on your cut-list too?
 
rkymtnman

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Greenhorn_Greenthumb said:
if I had to say the ones that I’m currently using that seem like they might be the first ones cut it would probably be the FloraBlend (pretty much some type of compost tea?) and the FloraNectar (molasses)
would those be the first on your cut-list too?
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are you in soil or hydro? if you said it , i missed it.
 
manfredo

manfredo

Well-Known Member
OK, I'm gonna disagree here a bit. I am using GH Flora expert series, for the first time ever I might add, and using it exactly as their chart recommends, in a 100 liter aero nutriculture system. The plants have thrived, with no tip burn. I am running the aero system right along side 13 plants grown in 7 gallon super soil buckets, and they all are thriving.

I also don't agree that all their add ons "do nothing". Sure they aren't necessary, but most of them, if not all of them, do have benefits. Some of them, like Armor Si, contains silica, which has been proven to make plants thrive and be better able to protect themselves from pests and pm. I am feeding it to ALL of my plants and have never had such thick branches and stems.

Now let me say also, I had powdery mildew my last 2 grows that I could not shake....So I started fresh, with new seeds, from ground zero. I'm in my 4th week of flower now, with no signs of pm of ANY deficiencies. They all look amazing actually!!

I look at the extras like taking a daily vitamin. Do you need it? No...But can it make you stronger & healthier? Hell yes!! And it's not like all these add-ons cost all that much in the big scheme of things. Sell one ounce and you have re-couped the cost!

The other extras I am using, Regalia and Venerate, also protect me from a variety of bugs, powdery mildew, and make the plants larger and produce more, so the extras aren't really costing me any more, they are making me money with larger harvests...which is why the majority of organic vegy and fruit farmers are using this stuff nowadays....and these products are organic and do NOT show up in testing.

And my 2 runs with powdery mildew cost me thousands of dollars, not to mention a boatload of time and labor, so a few dollars for protection is like a no brainer for me...now. A year ago I too might have said don't waste your money Now I say your a fool not to use them, once you get the basics down!!

But I'll also say that you do need to have your grow dialed in to see benefits from all these extras, so for a lot of people they are a waste of money.
 
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