Question My Beliefs, But Be Prepared To Answer For Yours :)

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Using consistent logic to deal with all issues without prejudice is a key to finding the truth.
I have learned from you as well.

But, to play devils advocate, are there any inconsistencies in your thinking? For example, do you have any superstitious beliefs? Do you exhibit certain behavior hoping to influence luck? Do you engage in any pretentious behavior to improve your appearance, like getting your hair styled as opposed to simply cut. What about keepsakes? Do you keep any objects around you simply for the sentimental value?

None of these things make any logical sense. I keep a necklace that I don't like in a drawer because my deceased grandmother gave it to me. I wear flying spaghetti monster t-shirts not simply to cover my skin and keep me warm, but as a form of expression. I am without any superstitions, but my point is, logic can not carry the same weight in all aspects of life, but should be given the most weight in judging claims of reality.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
you have said it yourself, my beliefs are a problem to you. you say this thread is unbiased but i beg to differ. The problem you have with my beliefs is what will never allow us to reach a common ground. i have tried to do this, but you do not take what i say serious and as a joke. Although when other LIKE MINDED people post, you most certainly agree with them. Why is that i can agree with them as well? Because i am unbiased.


And mp, i have answered the OP questions, just not to you are lichens or you choose to be bias as well...


I have seen that this thread is pointless for me to continue as only atheists' have chimed in... This is a sausage fest i want no part of anymore,


[video=youtube;nZh_dfuqQUo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZh_dfuqQUo[/video]




Let's try this, I'll ask a question, you give an answer, I then decide if the answer is enough to quell my interest. Then you ask a question, I give an answer and you decide. Agree? I really don't care what you ask me, nothing is off limits.



It's not a win/lose situation, like I mentioned in the OP. The point system is designed to keep people on topic and weed out the pointless insults that always seem to come about in these kinds of discussions. The thread is short, but so far I haven't seen one.



I realize you replied, but you didn't answer the questions. Take a stab at it, no judgments here.

To multi-quote, copy the username (or simply put [ quote ] without the username) and paste it before their text, then at the end of their text put [ /quote ] and it'll box it up all neat-like for you. (no spaces between brackets [])


See, you are learning how the human mind can trick itself.. (confirmation bias)



So then, it really doesn't matter how much good a terrible person does, right?

Why should it matter how much good a terrible institution does?



If my questions caused someone to commit suicide, I would feel like that person was going to commit suicide whether they read anything I had to say or not.

I've touched on this point before. Nothing someone says should ever envoke those kinds of thoughts/feelings. Words are just words.

I know it's scary for some people to ask these questions. But oly, you've seen me post here for a while now, does it look like I'm scared of asking these questions to you? Have you ever thought about why it might be so terrifying to some but to others, it's just words? I've taken the time to really think about this stuff, I just don't think that if there was a god, and it gave me the ability to think these questions through logically and rationally that led to the only answers my mind is cabable of believing, it would fault me for it.



On a personal level, sad someone could be so weak simple questions could make them end it all, sad a society could manipulate a person into submission to the point of ending it all, sad someone could be taken advantage of and used as a pawn in their racket. Just sad.



100% correct. Which is why what someone believes is so important for the rest of us. If something someone believes makes them act a certain way that impacts the rest of society in a negative way, I think it's the responsibility of those living in that society to correct it. I think the problem arises when those that believe feel their beliefs do not impact society in a negative way. Our own back and fourth has also given me that impression. You think Christianity is harmless and does more good than the harm the 'bad apples' cause within it, I think Christianity is dangerous and is used to subconsciously manipulate populations into acting/being a certain way, as to maintain control and the illusion of order.

That is the problem that we should be talking about. The reasons you feel it does more good than bad and the reasons I feel it does more bad than good. There's gotta be some middle ground, wouldn't you agree?



I disagree. Remember how we mentioned in the other thread that nothing can ever reach 100% certainty and only degrees of probability exist? The answers to these questions can be found if they deal with the natural world.

Again, opinions don't matter in this discussion. What we are talking about are beliefs, right? Doesn't it seem kind of silly to base a belief off of an unsubstantiated opinion? I'm not really even sure how one would do that. You can't trick yourself into belief, you simply believe after the evidence is provided or you don't. We are talking about facts, evidence, science, proof. Objective truth, that which we can all observe to be true regardless of anyones opinion, is the same to me as it is to you as it is to the next guy. Rocks are hard, the sky is blue, the Earth rotates on a 24 hour cycle, these are all things that are objectively true, so what you or I or what anyone else has to say about it is irrelevant to what is actually true. Similarly, we can observe the claims made in the believer/nonbeliever debate and test them accordingly against objective truth. If it's true, as believers say it is, it should pass the test. Time and time again, the claims made fail the test.

What is the honest individual to do?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I have learned from you as well.

But, to play devils advocate, are there any inconsistencies in your thinking? For example, do you have any superstitious beliefs? Do you exhibit certain behavior hoping to influence luck? Do you engage in any pretentious behavior to improve your appearance, like getting your hair styled as opposed to simply cut. What about keepsakes? Do you keep any objects around you simply for the sentimental value?

None of these things make any logical sense. I keep a necklace that I don't like in a drawer because my deceased grandmother gave it to me. I wear flying spaghetti monster t-shirts not simply to cover my skin and keep me warm, but as a form of expression. I am without any superstitions, but my point is, logic can not carry the same weight in all aspects of life, but should be given the most weight in judging claims of reality.
Superstitious beliefs, none. On the road to atheism, I found myself using the same kind of consistent logic -skepticism- to analyze everything I believed. Superstitions are beliefs that consistently failed the test.

Luck, same concept. I don't believe in luck. I don't see how luck would work, anytime I ask someone it's sort of the same kind of "it just does" deal.. I find that to be pretty frustrating in my personal life too, when someone believes something, but they can't explain why.. It seems to me that if you can't explain why you believe something, you shouldn't be believing it...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by engaging in pretentious behavior, buuuut, I cut my own hair..lol Why pay $15+$10 tip when I can buzz it myself eh?

Keepsakes, umm, the only thing that really matters to me sentimentally are things like pictures, notes, yearbooks, stuff like that. I actually have some fossils and books that I treasure, I guess you could say they hold sentimental value to me.

logic can not carry the same weight in all aspects of life, but should be given the most weight in judging claims of reality.

Absolutely, I agree.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
you have said it yourself, my beliefs are a problem to you. you say this thread is unbiased but i beg to differ. The problem you have with my beliefs is what will never allow us to reach a common ground. i have tried to do this, but you do not take what i say serious and as a joke. Although when other LIKE MINDED people post, you most certainly agree with them. Why is that i can agree with them as well? Because i am unbiased.
-your beliefs aren't a problem to me. I don't know you personally, how would anything you believe personally affect me? The mindset does, but that's because it does affect me.

-What bothers me the most is your unwillingness to delve deeper into yourself to search for the answers to the questions that have been asked. I feel like you don't want to do it because there's an element of fear, we've both admitted it's there, but I promise you, the questions that you might be afraid to ask right now will lead you to answers that quell the fear and substitute it for a feeling of pure awe, amazement and wonder that existence is explainable... you just have to use the right set of tools.

Give it a chance man. Don't give up.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I was trying to progress from areas where logic is important to where it is almost negligible. Superstition obviously isn't grounded in logic, but many people who are inclined to think logically still allow themselves superstitious behavior. My suspicion was that you do not. Pretense is also illogical, and I confess I cut my own hair too. I actually find it hard to find examples of pretense in my behavior, but none of us can be completely without it. When you meet someone at work and ask how their day is going, is your interest always genuine, or do you pretend for the sake of being polite? I think sentiment effects even the most logical thinking person. When you loose a person whom you cared deeply about, it takes a cold heart to not keep at least one thing that belonged to or reminds you of them.

I am of course not trying to attack you or find fault, I just find these topics interesting and worthy of discussion. I think it's intriguing how failing to apply logic in some areas can lead to very wrong and harmful beliefs, but failing to apply logic in other areas can help keep you sane. I guess the trick lies in where to draw the line, which I believe is between subjectivity and objectivity. Some aspects of belief are subject to emotions, past experiences, and appeals to comfort. I believe my grandmas necklace is nothing more than a bit of metal, but I suppress that belief in favor of the belief that it has value; a value that comes only from the comfort it brings me. Of course, I wouldn't expect it to have value to anyone else, because the belief is subjective. Claims of reality are objective in that emotion does not change them. Ultimately, the truth is not a democracy and can't be voted on. But if we are asking the question, is it ever okay to ignore truth for the sake of comfort, I think the answer has to be yes, that is if we are interested in good mental health. But it is irresponsible to hold a belief for the sake of comfort, if those beliefs amount to a dogma which entails oppression. So when someone says religion is valid simply for the fact that it makes people feel better, those people are not being responsible in their thinking.
 

kether noir

Well-Known Member
93

What does it mean to question the beliefs you hold most true?
to analyze and test them constantly and honestly. as well as studying and taking in other beliefs and remaining open.

How do you do it? Are there guidelines to follow? Is there a right or wrong way?
i just do. no. and no.
Why do you believe the things you do?
curiosity, i suppose. ive found my own answers.
How do you know they're true?
testing. reading.....many other faucets....
If they weren't true, how would it change your life?
i cant be sure. i would have to change my belief structure to the correct one/s...
Would you be willing to change what you believe to be true for what actually is true, even if it meant it would shatter that which you held to be most true your whole life?
yes.
What's more important to you, the truth, or your comfort and peace of mind?
they all intertwine in cretin areas and levels. but, comfort.


93 93/93
 

RawBudzski

Well-Known Member
I prefer truth no matter how devastating it may be. Knowledge is the Root of All Suffering, & the only way to pacify that suffering is to gain more Knowledge. :O <3 Truth & Facts.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I admire your attitude kether, but I am concerned with one thing.

How do you do it? Are there guidelines to follow? Is there a right or wrong way?
[/B][/B]i just do. no. and no.
If you are not careful when you question yourself, how can you be sure that you have asked the right questions? How do you know you've asked all the questions and answered them correctly? If you do not set standards for scrutiny then you can not be assured of it's quality, and are still very much in danger of holding erroneous beliefs.
 

kether noir

Well-Known Member
I admire your attitude kether, but I am concerned with one thing.



If you are not careful when you question yourself, how can you be sure that you have asked the right questions? How do you know you've asked all the questions and answered them correctly? If you do not set standards for scrutiny then you can not be assured of it's quality, and are still very much in danger of holding erroneous beliefs.
93
true.
i agree. as i grow, i am constantly changing my structure, learning, and questioning everything. nothing sits long enough to gather dust. its a continuing daily cycle, as i understand more i know less. rater baked, if little sense this makes.


93 93/93
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Influenced by other threads, this one is to show the stark contrast between believers and non-believers. The differences in our approaches towards answering this question. How are those differences important?

What does it mean to question the beliefs you hold most true?


How do you do it? Are there guidelines to follow? Is there a right or wrong way?

Why do you believe the things you do?

How do you know they're true?

If they weren't true, how would it change your life?

Would you be willing to change what you believe to be true for what actually is true, even if it meant it would shatter that which you held to be most true your whole life?

What's more important to you, the truth, or your comfort and peace of mind?


There is no hidden agenda, no alterior motive.. None of that. This is just a thread from a guy who, dispite having a difficult time understanding, is interested in these things. Can't we have one of these conversations, just one time, where nobody argues or insults someone else? Can this thread prove it? I'd like to say it can be done, but my experience says otherwise, and I'm not saying I'm innocent of this either, but come on people, keep your composure, stay calm, relax, think. This stuff is not personal, don't make it personal. None of us know each other, what do you have to get upset about?

So this is how we do this, I'm going to be score keeper, everytime someone bitches, moans, whines, cries or complains about something unjustly, the topic of the thread at the time will be paused, it'll be pointed out, and we will take a vote, if 5 people agree the bitching/moaning/whining/crying/complaining is unwarranted, the other side will get a point. There are two sides, believers, nonbelievers. This doesn't make us advasaries, it makes us partners, working together, to answer the same questions.

I think this will be an interesting little addition to the normal stuff, so lets make it happen, do it the right way, follow the instructions, and if you have any more questions you are genuinely curious about, ASK THEM!

:peace:

This is a great idea, Padawanbater2. I love your approach here, and here's hoping that your rules (very cool, btw) keep us all on track in regards to the thread's true purpose. Starting to read...NOW!
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
So this thread is to make believers and non-believers go head to head? Hmm what a great way to cause a bunch of useless arguments.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
you have said it yourself, my beliefs are a problem to you. you say this thread is unbiased but i beg to differ. The problem you have with my beliefs is what will never allow us to reach a common ground. i have tried to do this, but you do not take what i say serious and as a joke. Although when other LIKE MINDED people post, you most certainly agree with them. Why is that i can agree with them as well? Because i am unbiased.


And mp, i have answered the OP questions, just not to you are lichens or you choose to be bias as well...
You did not answer them as you said, "I gave my insight on another thread, but it got deleted" Not exactly part of this discussion now is it?

This thread isn't just about your beliefs in god, it's about ALL beliefs and how we evaluate them. I bet that if you examine other beliefs you hold that are independent of god or religion, you are more like-minded than you think. If you do not use some logical consistency to evaluate claims made by people, then you probably wouldn't make it in this world. You would constantly be believing all kinds of crazy things. The OP did not create the 'us vs. them' mentality, you did. The number of people that believe in a god is much higher than the number of atheists here on RIU and just about everywhere else. It's not the OP's fault that other religionists aren't posting. Maybe, like you, they are unwilling to admit that they give a special exemption on logical thought when it comes to their beliefs about a deity that they don't do for anything else.

How about if we just examine your belief that you are unbiased? That shouldn't be so scary. How can you be sure you are unbiased considering the huge number of biases that most other mortals have?
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Im sorry you and many others disagree with what i say.



I was trying to progress from areas where logic is important to where it is almost negligible. Superstition obviously isn't grounded in logic, but many people who are inclined to think logically still allow themselves superstitious behavior. My suspicion was that you do not. Pretense is also illogical, and I confess I cut my own hair too. I actually find it hard to find examples of pretense in my behavior, but none of us can be completely without it. When you meet someone at work and ask how their day is going, is your interest always genuine, or do you pretend for the sake of being polite? I think sentiment effects even the most logical thinking person. When you loose a person whom you cared deeply about, it takes a cold heart to not keep at least one thing that belonged to or reminds you of them.

I am of course not trying to attack you or find fault, I just find these topics interesting and worthy of discussion. I think it's intriguing how failing to apply logic in some areas can lead to very wrong and harmful beliefs, but failing to apply logic in other areas can help keep you sane. I guess the trick lies in where to draw the line, which I believe is between subjectivity and objectivity. Some aspects of belief are subject to emotions, past experiences, and appeals to comfort. I believe my grandmas necklace is nothing more than a bit of metal, but I suppress that belief in favor of the belief that it has value; a value that comes only from the comfort it brings me. Of course, I wouldn't expect it to have value to anyone else, because the belief is subjective. Claims of reality are objective in that emotion does not change them. Ultimately, the truth is not a democracy and can't be voted on. But if we are asking the question, is it ever okay to ignore truth for the sake of comfort, I think the answer has to be yes, that is if we are interested in good mental health. But it is irresponsible to hold a belief for the sake of comfort, if those beliefs amount to a dogma which entails oppression. So when someone says religion is valid simply for the fact that it makes people feel better, those people are not being responsible in their thinking.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
I have learned from you as well.

But, to play devils advocate, are there any inconsistencies in your thinking? For example, do you have any superstitious beliefs? Do you exhibit certain behavior hoping to influence luck? Do you engage in any pretentious behavior to improve your appearance, like getting your hair styled as opposed to simply cut. What about keepsakes? Do you keep any objects around you simply for the sentimental value?

None of these things make any logical sense. I keep a necklace that I don't like in a drawer because my deceased grandmother gave it to me. I wear flying spaghetti monster t-shirts not simply to cover my skin and keep me warm, but as a form of expression. I am without any superstitions, but my point is, logic can not carry the same weight in all aspects of life, but should be given the most weight in judging claims of reality.
Hey, Heisenberg! I enjoy reading your posts, and really dig your epistemology. I am lucky enough to have a circle of friends that are skeptics, atheists, and critical thinkers (not to mention hilarious and great musicians). We bounce our thoughts, ideas and epistemologies off each other each week, and they are merciless in pointing out each others&#8217; errors and erroneous ideas and beliefs. This has allowed me to grow much more rapidly than if I had to rely solely on my own insight and methodology to find the errors in my thinking. I find inconsistencies in my thinking from time to time, and it&#8217;s no big deal to give them up immediately. But the cherished (comforting) beliefs that I have held for a long time, THOSE are painful, sometimes earth-shaking, things to give up in light of the new, indisputable facts that come to light. I don&#8217;t hold any superstitions, either, and wholeheartedly agree that logic should carry the most weight when judging claims of reality.
You mention that your position is that it is illogical to pretentiously attempt to approve your appearance, to keep objects for sentimental value, and to do things merely for expression (the flying spaghetti t-shirt example). When I thought about this for a while, it seems to me that these things are logical in the following contexts:
a. It is often asked, &#8216;what is my meaning/purpose in this life?&#8217; Of course, the answer is whatever meaning we choose to give it, but in a harsher, Darwinian sense we are vehicles for passing on our genes (Dawkins, the Selfish Gene and others). In order to do this most effectively, we need to be sexually attractive, as it is the most sexually attractive people who have the most sex, thus the greatest chances of procreating. So in this context, it seems logical to give in to the sex drive and make ourselves as attractive as possible. I personally don&#8217;t put much effort into my appearance, not to say I&#8217;m a slob but the only reason that I&#8217;ve ever put any stock into fashion (not wearing a brown belt with black shoes, getting this haircut over that one, etc. ) is because women that I was fucking , or wanted to fuck, wanted it that way. Some go as far to say that the main (usually unconscious) reason males achieve almost anything is to gain a mate and have sex, and you can see this when you look at the trend that most major accomplishments of a lot prolific artists/scientists/industrialists happen before they get married, and sometimes precious little afterward (they&#8217;ve already won a mate, the drive diminishes). But I digress&#8230;
b. We are apes, social primates. It seems that in nature higher mammals are hardwired to some degree of sentimentality. We see elephants carry the corpses of their fallen brethren long distances In order to bury them in an agreed upon cemetery of sorts, then seem to grieve for some time afterward. Similarly, we see bonobo and chimp mothers carry around the corpse of their dead children for weeks. It seems again we also share this sentimentality, and it seems that this is not learned behavior, but instinctual. Most of us don&#8217;t keep the corpses, instead we hold onto keepsakes of the corpses of our near and dear. Also, I find pleasure in keeping the crappy artwork and stories from my son and pulling them out for pleasurable nostalgic sessions every few years. It seems logical to satisfy this innate drive for sentiment.
c. Higher mammals also seem hardwired (I&#8217;m not liking this word, just using it for lack of a more accurate one) for expression. This may be more of a learned behavior, but it seems we have a real aptitude for expression. It seems to be an inner drive for most people (even young children), so again it seems logical to satisfy this drive, as well.

The only alternative seems to be to repress these drives, but I think that would be to our mental/emotional/spiritual detriment, thus not logical. Let me know your take&#8230;
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
i have no fear of anything, why would i fear a question? I feel that you will never agree with me because of my beliefs and your hatred towards it. I believe you and anyone else who says they "dont hate" my beliefs are liars. what else would motivate you or anyone else so much to belittle others beliefs? My beliefs are concrete no matter what, im not a coward to back out of them. I feel comfortable in my life and have no need to change anything... how does the old saying go, if aint broke dont fix it!


and tell me, how does MY mindset affect you personally? Please let me know




and the red text says it all... you say that your beliefs do not affect no one, yet you promote them like it is the next big thing! why would that not make some weak minded person go out and shoot themselves or go out and kill a lot of people cause you told them their life was an entire lie and that they need to re think everything


this thread is extremely bias, i cannot stress that enough...




-your beliefs aren't a problem to me. I don't know you personally, how would anything you believe personally affect me? The mindset does, but that's because it does affect me.

-What bothers me the most is your unwillingness to delve deeper into yourself to search for the answers to the questions that have been asked. I feel like you don't want to do it because there's an element of fear, we've both admitted it's there, but I promise you, the questions that you might be afraid to ask right now will lead you to answers that quell the fear and substitute it for a feeling of pure awe, amazement and wonder that existence is explainable... you just have to use the right set of tools.

Give it a chance man. Don't give up.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
i believe any type of communication with a person you have a problem or issue with and especially if it is religion, there will always be arguments cause it is you agains me, no matter what or how you or anyone else says it on here, it is like that... You guys think you are better then us cause we believe in something you dont, so makes us inferior cause our "mental" capabilities are obsolete.


i hate how you guys make it seem that I made this into a "you against me thing." that is the tactic i have seen all along, deflection





Pay attention, son.
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
i agree with things you say, but i dont suck up to up cause that aint me... just cause i dont acknowledge what you say does not mean i do not agree with it.



This is a great idea, Padawanbater2. I love your approach here, and here's hoping that your rules (very cool, btw) keep us all on track in regards to the thread's true purpose. Starting to read...NOW!
 
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