Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[Pattahabi]

quote me correctly , i said "poor advice" meaning what i would say to a grower with a closed mind... poor guy ... lol i know your not like that...
your opinion is most respected by me . it makes me think on subjects harder my reasooning for citric acid is summed up here and is contrary to your opinion . i hope mine is based in FACT though....
Organic, carbon-based citric acid also acts as a potential food source for your beneficial microbes (they feed on carbon). This will help keep your “good” microbe population happy, while avoiding unhealthy, anaerobic conditions.

The best part of all is that citric acid really works. In fact, it does all of the “good” things that mineral acids do, but in a much gentler fashion. It also does some things that mineral acids aren’t able to.

Unlike mineral acids, Citric acid will not change your N-P-K ratio. How does this work? Well, nitric acid contains nitrogen. With Phosphoric acid, you’ve got phosphorus. And with sulfuric acid, you’re adding sulfur. By using citric acid, you’ll get its acidifying benefits, without adding additional nutrient sources, so there’s no need to rethink your N-P-Ks after applying it.

Citric acid also helps chelate essential minerals that are bound up in the soil. Applications of citric acid will take these insoluble, oxidized micronutrients and make them available for uptake and use by your turf. Citric acid is also part of the Krebs cycle, and transports micronutrients through the xylem.

My apologies, you said poor advice, not terrible advice. I don't want to sound like a jerk. I know I don’t word things well. I appreciate your comment about making you think harder about a subject. This is one of the few reasons I still post on da weed boards. When people challenge your beliefs it makes you question them and do a little research. In which, I pretty much always learn something. I really don’t care if people want to pH adjust their soil. I know I won’t be anytime soon. So I don’t want to spend too much time on pH adjusting, but the thought of citric acid being added to a organic soil is thought provoking. So, without too much time I found this on logiacalgardener from Carllost:

wondered if any of you guys adjust the ph of your teas? if so what with?

is there any particular ph level that the act bacteria prefer?
over time all my teas head to around 8.7 then hold there on there own

ive been observing adjustments made with citric acid and phosphoric acid over the course of a week or so

ive been dropping the ph of my act to around 6.5 from its start point of 8.7 (should mention this is tea ive removed from my perpetual brew system)

with the citric after about 10mins the ph starts to rise to above 7 . in an hour or so its back in the 8 s . ive continued to do this over the course of a week or so observing the microlife within the solution . the citric acid batch seemed to hold higher numbers of microbes than my control batch , although i could not keep the ph down.

the phosphoric acid visibly reduced numbers of microlife within minutes of adding , however the ph did hold at lower numbers for the duration of my observations (again around a week). by the end of the week the batch with the phosphoric had very little life in it ,while the control batch was perfectly healthy.

Tim’s response:

Carl; I have never altered pH of ACT. I may have mentioned I've observed finished ACT with the 3 microbial groups desired at approximate 'appropriate' levels in CT ranging fro 4.5 pH all the way to 9 pH. It is likely that various species of bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae influence the pH up or down, besides considering the water type/quality and DO2 level.

No offense but I caution you against becoming caught up in using language like 'perfectly healthy' in reference to the microbial make up of a liquid solution like CT. There are some who state things like 'I used XXX in my CT and it had lots of microbial life'. I think we can do a disservice to poeple just learning, that what we are seeking in ACT, etc. is just lots of stuff wriggling around, when lots of stuff wriggling around could actually be pathogenic. There are folks putting themselves out there as experts on compost tea who only address or illustrate the bacterial content. IMO it is always best to at least qualify as best we can what we are seeing for the sake of teaching others and attempting to turn the tide of misinformation steaming ahead. Even by stating the groups observed would be great.

So, sounds like Tim hasn’t tried altering the pH of ACT. I would like to hear Tim or Elaine’s opinion about why or why not you would alter the pH of ACT’s. I don't have the time to really dig into this atm. I'd love to hear what others come up with.

Peace,

P-

 

[Joedank]

My apologies, you said poor advice, not terrible advice. I don't want to sound like a jerk. I know I don’t word things well. I appreciate your comment about making you think harder about a subject. This is one of the few reasons I still post on da weed boards. When people challenge your beliefs it makes you question them and do a little research. In which, I pretty much always learn something. I really don’t care if people want to pH adjust their soil. I know I won’t be anytime soon. So I don’t want to spend too much time on pH adjusting, but the thought of citric acid being added to a organic soil is thought provoking. So, without too much time I found this on logiacalgardener from Carllost:

wondered if any of you guys adjust the ph of your teas? if so what with?

is there any particular ph level that the act bacteria prefer?
over time all my teas head to around 8.7 then hold there on there own

ive been observing adjustments made with citric acid and phosphoric acid over the course of a week or so

ive been dropping the ph of my act to around 6.5 from its start point of 8.7 (should mention this is tea ive removed from my perpetual brew system)

with the citric after about 10mins the ph starts to rise to above 7 . in an hour or so its back in the 8 s . ive continued to do this over the course of a week or so observing the microlife within the solution . the citric acid batch seemed to hold higher numbers of microbes than my control batch , although i could not keep the ph down.

the phosphoric acid visibly reduced numbers of microlife within minutes of adding , however the ph did hold at lower numbers for the duration of my observations (again around a week). by the end of the week the batch with the phosphoric had very little life in it ,while the control batch was perfectly healthy.

Tim’s response:

Carl; I have never altered pH of ACT. I may have mentioned I've observed finished ACT with the 3 microbial groups desired at approximate 'appropriate' levels in CT ranging fro 4.5 pH all the way to 9 pH. It is likely that various species of bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae influence the pH up or down, besides considering the water type/quality and DO2 level.

No offense but I caution you against becoming caught up in using language like 'perfectly healthy' in reference to the microbial make up of a liquid solution like CT. There are some who state things like 'I used XXX in my CT and it had lots of microbial life'. I think we can do a disservice to poeple just learning, that what we are seeking in ACT, etc. is just lots of stuff wriggling around, when lots of stuff wriggling around could actually be pathogenic. There are folks putting themselves out there as experts on compost tea who only address or illustrate the bacterial content. IMO it is always best to at least qualify as best we can what we are seeing for the sake of teaching others and attempting to turn the tide of misinformation steaming ahead. Even by stating the groups observed would be great.

So, sounds like Tim hasn’t tried altering the pH of ACT. I would like to hear Tim or Elaine’s opinion about why or why not you would alter the pH of ACT’s. I don't have the time to really dig into this atm. I'd love to hear what others come up with.

Peace,

P-

my only reason is my pots get "too dry " and i like the idea of them getting a mix that is not only useable but easy to digest for the changes i see in my plant . i think of it as "holding hands " walking down the road . it tells me more of this or that and i try to resopnd with a ph that chelates the minerals in a fasion i desire . it is a new school approch to a old problem of avoiding :lush growth that is bad for smokeable products .... imo long brews are good for my roses and asparagus as they thrive in those soils but not my annuals .... IMHE
@genuity i see you lurking you wann chime in here i know you got TONS of knowledge in this area . sorry if your busy or some shit . neem meal on the way

 

[Pattahabi]

my only reason is my pots get "too dry " and i like the idea of them getting a mix that is not only useable but easy to digest for the changes i see in my plant . i think of it as "holding hands " walking down the road . it tells me more of this or that and i try to resopnd with a ph that chelates the minerals in a fasion i desire . it is a new school approch to a old problem of avoiding :lush growth that is bad for smokeable products .... imo long brews are good for my roses and asparagus as they thrive in those soils but not my annuals .... IMHE
@genuity i see you lurking you wann chime in here i know you got TONS of knowledge in this area . sorry if your busy or some shit . neem meal on the way

I don't want to get in a long conversation and I don't want to sound like a jerk. I respect your path, it's just not one that agrees with my paradigm of a living organic soil. I don't believe in pH'ing your water. With that said, I'm going to politely step out of this conversation acknowledging there are 100 ways to skin a cat.

Peace,

P-

 

[hyroot]

Any thoughts on ph issues with sst. All my other plants are fine. But my basil got watered with same sst. The leaves are not droopy. But all the branches on the basil plant went limp. That plant is about 2 years old. It's been harvested every month. It was 3 feet tall when I watered it with the sst.

 

[Pattahabi]

Any thoughts on ph issues with sst. All my other plants are fine. But my basil got watered with same sst. The leaves are not droopy. But all the branches on the basil plant went limp. That plant is about 2 years old. It's been harvested every month. It was 3 feet tall when I watered it with the sst.

I don't know about pH, but I have found out the hard way more than once, watering small seedlings with an sst, especially a strong one, can be a bad thing lol. I would cut the sst solution with more water and see if it has a better outcome.



P-

 

[Pattahabi]

@greasemonkeymann I was looking through some saved old posts in relation to your love for leaf mold, etc. I found this old quote from Coot. The ways in which we can alter the compost and it's process are mind boggling. I simply don't have the space to experiment with this, but hope to in the future. A good humus source is paramount.

waktoo

Whew! After your first post when I read the second post a bell went off in my feeble brain. True black leaf mold is a multi-year process – 3 – 4 years is the normal time required. This would fall under the cold composting definition. True black leaf mold is impossible to find in my area – way too much demand because of how it performs for organic farmers.

When compost is ramped up it is to kill pathogens and degrade seeds. Composting is not a process of heat but rather microbes and when the pile hits 132F (or something close) what we’ve done is effectively wiped out the microbe colonies contained in the materials you’re going to use. These colonies are re-built through a number of processes and it’s the microbes that deconstruct (degrade) our compost.

When the temps drop down into the mesophyllic stage the development of fungi begins and it’s this group of microbes which can degrade lignin because bacteria has little if any effect.

High temps are important maybe even critical if we’re using mammalian manures in part because of the different medicines, vermicides, etc. that the animals are given. You know about that deal….

When using clean plant materials (like I do) the need for the high temps isn’t really there.
So how about this – do a search at scholar.google.com for this text string: cold vs. hot composting and see if it makes sense to you and your situation.

Back to your leaf mold – even 1 year would show high fungi levels which you want and need. If you have the time to invest then using ‘fresh’ dried leaves might be the better game plan and then adding the partially finished leaf mold when you drop into the mesophyllic stage which would then inoculate your compost pile with high levels of fungi colonies.

I was just trying to think this through so that you can maximize the benefits you’ve already created with the cold-composted leaves.

Looking at both methods will be informative and helpful…

CC

Peace!

P-

 

[Joedank]

Any thoughts on ph issues with sst. All my other plants are fine. But my basil got watered with same sst. The leaves are not droopy. But all the branches on the basil plant went limp. That plant is about 2 years old. It's been harvested every month. It was 3 feet tall when I watered it with the sst.

woah . i just mixed up some corn sst and i only do like 1 cup of corn slurry about 200grams final sprouted corn . and see great effect even alone with no bubbleing in ALL my plants ...
weird hope there is not some fungus we are brewing that fucks up the vascular sysem of plants ...

black leaf mold is awsome . good info as usual coot ....

 

[hyroot]

I did corn seed too. All my other plants didn't have any negative effects. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why only one plant has gotten fucked and the others are doing great. That dark side. Didn't bounce back today. It's severely droopy. Not dead but looks like it's on it's way there. If it dies I'm tossing the whole 10 gal pot of soil. It doesn't make sense.

The only thing I can think of is root rot. It doesn't appear to have root rot. It's able to stand on it's own and everything. . Not falling over just very droopy. I learned about root rot the hard way years ago. When I over watered an sog grow.

 

[Joedank]

I did corn seed too. All my other plants didn't have any negative effects. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why only one plant has gotten fucked and the others are doing great. That dark side. Didn't bounce back today. It's severely droopy. Not dead but looks like it's on it's way there. If it dies I'm tossing the whole 10 gal pot of soil. It doesn't make sense.

The only thing I can think of is root rot. It doesn't appear to have root rot. It's able to stand on it's own and everything. . Not falling over just very droopy. I learned about root rot the hard way years ago. When I over watered an sog grow.

bummer man hope it picks up ... i use quantum growth light someytimes for that very reason ...

 

[hyroot]

After some rereading. Some humus can be acidic. Ie humic acid I guess. Then the sst after. The sst didn't aerate for more than 30 min when that plant got watered though. It looks like shit still. Fuck man. I think I'm over all teas altogether. Just water only soil.

 

[ShLUbY]

hey hyroot how far down did you check for root rot? i've experienced before where new roots are growing in the top of the soil (because there is more air there i believe and the soil dries faster). maybe if you toss the pot of soil too you will find that the lower half of the root ball is in much worse shape than you thought, but i could be wrong.

After some rereading. Some humus can be acedic. Ie humic acid I guess. Then the sst after. The sst didn't aerate for more than 30 min when that plant got watered though. It looks like shit still. Fuck man. I think I'm over all teas altogether. Just water only soil.

did you mean acetic, or acidic?

 

[hyroot]

hey hyroot how far down did you check for root rot? i've experienced before where new roots are growing in the top of the soil (because there is more air there i believe and the soil dries faster). maybe if you toss the pot of soil too you will find that the lower half of the root ball is in much worse shape than you thought, but i could be wrong.



did you mean acetic, or acidic?

Acidic. My phone ...... spell check

 

[ShLUbY]

ahhh. well in that case... how would you not put together that humic ACID is acidic? lol i only know this because I have a ph pen and i've always enjoyed the use of the humic because i usually didn't have to add any ph adjuster (citric acid) to my water to get the ph down! I always assumed the slightly acid waterings from humic would be beneficial, as water with acidic measures can and will dissolve things more readily. thought the combo of that and the slight bit of organic matter was part of the science of why it worked so well (my hypothesis anyways). i'll have to do some more reading myself.

So you think it was the SST that did that to your basil and just one of the cannabis? what about soil moisture content in general? is there a possibility that maybe if there was already unknown existing damage to the roots and a thorough watering just caused more stress??? i'd be pulling that root ball up from the pot and checkin it out if it's possible without harming the plant too much more....

 

[Mohican]

Basil is a strange plant and being that it is an herb, does not like wet conditions. The more I ignore basil the happier it gets!

Hope your basil bounces back!

 

[ShLUbY]

ok I have some things on my shopping list that i have to order for my first no-till LOS ... if you guys know of some better prices/sources or if I am missing some "must have" would you please inform me?? thanks

Amazon:
Dr. Earth Soft Rock Phosphate $12.00 3lbs
Natures Harvest Crab Shell $16.00 4lbs
White Clover Seeds $12.00 1lb
Organic Alfalfa Sprouting Seeds $12.00 lb
Dr. Bronners Peppermint Soap typical price
Bobs Redmill White Popcorn $12.00 for 4pack of popcorn
Pumice 3/8" screened 16 quarts (4gal) $26.00 (looks like same deal on ebay)
EM-1, can't decided if i should get a quart or a gallon because of the price ($34qt or $65gal). just dont want the gallon to go bad or something but i'll be using it in my outdoor vegetable garden as well!

Gonna get some Neem Oil, Neem Meal, and Karanja Meal from NeemResource.com

I already have kelp meal, alfalfa meal, oyster shell powder, dolomite lime, Bone char (bio char with phosphorus infused 0-16-0 but i'm considering exchanging this for fish bone meal by Organically Done), humic and fulvic acids (can someone tell me why the Ful Power is a superior product to other humics??) Also have a bag of cowboy charcoal that I'm going to make some biochar with and try and get it charged properly.

 

[hyroot]

ahhh. well in that case... how would you not put together that humic ACID is acidic? lol i only know this because I have a ph pen and i've always enjoyed the use of the humic because i usually didn't have to add any ph adjuster (citric acid) to my water to get the ph down! I always assumed the slightly acid waterings from humic would be beneficial, as water with acidic measures can and will dissolve things more readily. thought the combo of that and the slight bit of organic matter was part of the science of why it worked so well (my hypothesis anyways). i'll have to do some more reading myself.

So you think it was the SST that did that to your basil and just one of the cannabis? what about soil moisture content in general? is there a possibility that maybe if there was already unknown existing damage to the roots and a thorough watering just caused more stress??? i'd be pulling that root ball up from the pot and checkin it out if it's possible without harming the plant too much more....

Well I've known humic acid is acidic but that's a concentrate. I've always though compost is more neutral since it's a buffer too.

 

[Mohican]

All looks like good stuff. What is the popcorn for?

I got neem powder at the local Indian market for $2.99



Are you in SoCal? I think you can get the pumice cheaper at the farm supply (among other stuff).

Cheers,
Mo

 

[ShLUbY]

All looks like good stuff. What is the popcorn for?

I got neem powder at the local Indian market for $2.99



Are you in SoCal? I think you can get the pumice cheaper at the farm supply (among other stuff).

Cheers,
Mo

Mo: how do you use the powder in your grow?

popcorn is for SST as well. i need to make sure that the bob's stuff will actually sprout before i buy it. Otherwise i'll be sourcing a different popcorn! I saw someone using it before on youtube vid. it's a cheap source for SST (@$1.62lb for the bobs) until i start using my own stuff from my garden outside. I wish i would have known about SST years ago... i could have saved so much brocolli, pak choy, cilantro, arugula, i mean all sorts of stuff for SST (even my own strawberry popcorn!! too bad i didnt plant any this year ). i would think all seeds would be beneficial, some more than others. what better than to recycle from the organic garden! Plus, as another member posted i'll just continue to sprout them and eat them! yum... can't wait. GENIUS! cilantro SST would be good a good soil IPM along with the enzymes and what not maybe?

Unfortunately i'll have to ship in some pumice as I'm in michigan so the only stuff i have local source to is glacial rock dust, which is good, but i'm not aware of any local material i could use in place of the pumice (pumice seems like the best way to go to me, anyone disagree?) i wanna get some basalt dust, and i have azomite already. just want a good blend. The pumice is screened to 3/8"... should i get something more course to mix in with that??? i'll also be using the bio char for aeration material (5-10%).

Just want to say how much i love this thread and thank you to all you folks who are sharing on here and. wish i could share some of these ice wax dabs with you all from my last batch as a token of appreciation!

 

[Mohican]

I was planning on mixing it with my soil. The store owner said his father would make a tea with it and use it as a foliar to prevent pests.

 

[ShLUbY]

Gypsum or Dolomite Lime? Heard Gypsum acts faster than dolomite... maybe do a little of both since i'd like to do a no-till? Also gonna use some oyster shell i think. thanks.