Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
I hear ya, I think that was a centipede.
My main thing for not sterilizing was because I wanted the various BIMs that were in there..
I'm curious how many of the veteran organic growers are literally cooking their soil to kill 'the bad guys'? I'm going to guess few to none. When we build a strong organic soil we create an environment that is advantageous for the beneficials, and a real mofo for anything we don't want in there. I've grabbed various organic inputs from a variety of places outdoors. Other than a few fungus gnats, I've never had a problem.

Ok, coffee time lol!

P-
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I'm curious how many of the veteran organic growers are literally cooking their soil to kill 'the bad guys'? I'm going to guess few to none. When we build a strong organic soil we create an environment that is advantageous for the beneficials, and a real mofo for anything we don't want in there. I've grabbed various organic inputs from a variety of places outdoors. Other than a few fungus gnats, I've never had a problem.

Ok, coffee time lol!

P-
right you are sir, I figure if the mites from outside can get to my plants what, really, do I have to fear? Nothing worse than the three friggin different types of mites here... worse are those tiny ass red lookin ones.. those things are sorta slow compared to the two-spot, but damn they suck a plant dry faster..
We've talked about how the soil seems to keep the mites down, I had an unhappy tutankhamon that for whatever reason it was the only plant that didn't like my soil, so it looked pissed off for the last ten days, well, within 30 hrs it got webbed. Like badly, like goo-globs-of-mites-hangin-from-the-sunleaves-badly.
Just goes to show you exactly how much plant health has to do with suppressing mites. None of my other plants got mites, even the opposite plant growing in the same smartpot (I always do two diff varieties per container when i'm strain-huntin)
People forget that sometimes I think.
EDIT-- can you tell I already bet ya to the coffee, by that rambly ass response?, you were talking BIMs and I went off on spider mites....(:space cadet...
 
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Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
right you are sir, I figure if the mites from outside can get to my plants what, really, do I have to fear? Nothing worse than the three friggin different types of mites here... worse are those tiny ass red lookin ones.. those things are sorta slow compared to the two-spot, but damn they suck a plant dry faster..
We've talked about how the soil seems to keep the mites down, I had an unhappy tutankhamon that for whatever reason it was the only plant that didn't like my soil, so it looked pissed off for the last ten days, well, within 30 hrs it got webbed. Like badly, like goo-globs-of-mites-hangin-from-the-sunleaves-badly.
Just goes to show you exactly how much plant health has to do with suppressing mites. None of my other plants got mites, even the opposite plant growing in the same smartpot (I always do two diff varieties per container when i'm strain-huntin)
People forget that sometimes I think.
EDIT-- can you tell I already bet ya to the coffee, by that rambly ass response?, you were talking BIMs and I went off on spider mites....(:space cadet...
Gotta love that very amphetamine like response that coffee causes. If I remember right it's because it pings your adrenal gland like crazy. If I don't eat before my coffee I turn into a rage monster.
 
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greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
Someone was asking about liming on another site. Thought I'd post this up from Coot.

Okay – the first goals of wanting Calcium & Magnesium are good we’ll stipulate. Whether or not you need a mineral amendment to achieve that will be put aside.

Dolomite Lime is used in ‘the real world’ when a complete soil analysis has been done and now you have a complete overview of the element levels, CeC, etc. and it’s been established that lower levels exist for the long term on the Magnesium percentage. Even then, DL is applied maybe once every 4 or 5 years. The Magnesium in DL arrives as Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3) but it’s a bit more complicated than that.

The reason that it is ‘slow acting’ is the molecular structure and if you were to hit even WikiPedia and looked at the molecular formula you can easily understand why this material is as slow acting as it is.

If in fact you need a Magnesium jolt then you’d be far better off using a mined mineral compound like Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) or Sul-Po-Mag (Sulphur, Potassium & Magnesium). The Magnesium in Epsom Salts is in its elemental form like Sul-Po-Mag.

The main straight liming agents, Limestone, Calcite (aka Agricultural Lime), Oyster shell powder and Crab meal are sources for Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). All are pure Calcium Carbonate with the exception of Limestone which can have a Mg level between 2 – 3% depending on the specific mine, country of origin, etc.

When looking at the numbers on a Calcium Carbonate source you have to multiply the CaCO3 percentage by 0.375% and now you will have the elemental Calcium (Ca++) numbers.

Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) is the preferred ‘liming’ agent in the PNW due to the acidic soils we deal with (the west side). That has to do with the adulteration of the clay platelets which no longer carry a pure negative charge (-) on the edges which bind along its edge with the center of adjacent clay particles and now you have clay compaction. All the Rototilling isn’t going to change that – ever.

So back to Dolomite Lime and why it’s used in commercial potting soils – certainly not used by professional nurseries other than for specific growing schedules like 3 – 5 years in containers. Even then, DL is part of a ‘liming mix’ that will include Gypsum (Calcium & Sulphur), Limestone or one of the shells meals. Bottom line is the DL is the least expensive because Calcium Carbonate is widely used in animal & human supplements – next time you’re in a store selling vitamins and supplements look at the label on the Calcium products – Calcium Carbonate.

Same for livestock and poultry. Calcium is a necessary part of their feed and DL isn’t part of that. DL has several industrial, manufacturing, etc. uses – it’s not the big deal in agriculture or horticulture like it is in the cannabis hobby gardening paradigm.

All of this assumes of course that the potting soil that you make is deficient in Calcium or Magnesium. It would be highly unlikely that given the compost and EWC you produce that you need additional Magnesium or Calcium. EWC are covered with a slime which is Calcium Carbonate from the worm’s digestive tract.

Calcium is not this elusive element that Goober wants you to believe it is

CC
I remember reading this before, and it's really good information, I really hate dolomite lime.
I think that a lot of times people think they need magnesium, when it's actually something else. Magnesium is in a lot of the ingredients we use.
more often than not i'd say its an issue elsewhere, kinda how all the hydro guys think cal/mag is the answer to all the problems.
crab meal is like almost 1.5 % mag
neem is .5-1%
hell even kelp is like a quarter percent magnesium.
and that's not even talking about the easiest mag you can get, which is simply black strap molasses.
point is, magnesium is barely needed, it's not like it's a macro nutrient.
 
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Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
I remember reading this before, and it's really good information, I really hate dolomite lime.
I think that a lot of times people think they need magnesium, when it's actually something else. Magnesium is in a lot of the ingredients we use.
more often than not i'd say its an issue elsewhere, kinda how all the hydro guys think cal/mag is the answer to all the problems.
crab meal is like almost 1.5 % mag
neem is .5-1%
hell even kelp is like a quarter percent magnesium.
and that's not even talking about the easiest mag you can get, which is simply black strap molasses.
point is, magnesium is barely needed, it's not like it's a macro nutrient.
I love this Coot quote:

Let’s look at Chlorophyl in all forms……

Chlorophyll a – C55 H72 O5 N4 Mg – i.e. a single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll b – C55 H70 O6 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll c1 – C35 H30 O5 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll c2 – C35 H28 O5 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll d – C54 H70 O6 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyl f – C55 H70 O6 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion

Can anyone explain the claim about ‘Magnesium hungry’ strains?

“I’m listening” – Dr. Frasier CC
 

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
@Midwest Weedist Have you read how the venus flytrap senses it's prey, and why it doesn't close when water hits them? Fascinating imo.

P-
I actually just started reading up on them this morning and it's extremely fascinating! I plan on doing a few experiments to see what all I can do to trick it, eventually. I think I might start hand feeding it to see if I can get it too bulk up.
The one thing I'm a bit worried about it the supposed dormancy period that they require yearly. Apparently you can skip it, but they'll die off eventually. I'd like to get some more so I could pollinate and gets seeds.
 

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
I actually just started reading up on them this morning and it's extremely fascinating! I plan on doing a few experiments to see what all I can do to trick it, eventually. I think I might start hand feeding it to see if I can get it too bulk up.
The one thing I'm a bit worried about it the supposed dormancy period that they require yearly. Apparently you can skip it, but they'll die off eventually. I'd like to get some more so I could pollinate and gets seeds.
I think it's safe to say we are all a little bit of organic/plant nerds lol. I'd get some strange looks bringing this up in casual conversation on the street! This is from What a Plant Knows:


The amazing characteristics of the Venus flytrap led Charles Darwin,
who was among the first scientists to publish an in-depth study of the
plant and other carnivorous flora, to describe it as “one of the most
wonderful [plants] in the world.” Darwin’s interest in carnivorous plants
illustrates how naive curiosity can lead a trained scientist to
groundbreaking discoveries. Darwin begins his 1875 treatise
Insectivorous Plants in this way: “During the summer of 1860, I was
surprised by finding how large a number of insects were caught by the
leaves of the common sun-dew [plant] (Drosera rotundifolia) on a heath
in Sussex. I had heard that insects were thus caught, but knew nothing
further on the subject.” From knowing virtually nothing about the matter,
Darwin became the foremost expert on carnivorous plants, including the
Venus flytrap, in the nineteenth century, and indeed his work is still
referenced today.

We now know that the Venus flytrap feels its prey and senses if the
organism crawling around inside its trap is the right size to consume.
There are several large black hairs on the pink surface of the inside of
each lobe, and the hairs act as triggers that spring the trap closed. But one
hair being touched is not enough to spring the trap; studies have revealed
that at least two have to be touched within about twenty seconds of each
other. This ensures that the prey is the ideal size and won’t be able to
wiggle out of the trap once it closes. The hairs are extremely sensitive,
but they are also very selective. As Darwin noted in his book
Insectivorous Plants:

Drops of water, or a thin broken stream, falling from a
height on the filaments [hairs], did not cause the blades to
close … No doubt, the plant is indifferent to the heaviest
shower of rain … I blew many times through a fine
pointed tube with my utmost force against the filaments
without any effect; such blowing being received with as
much indifference as no doubt is a heavy gale of wind. We
thus see that the sensitiveness of the filaments is of a
specialized nature.

Even though Darwin described in great detail the series of events
leading to trap closure and the nutritional advantage of the animal protein
to the plants, he couldn’t come up with the mechanism of the signal that
differentiated between rain and fly and enabled the rapid imprisonment of
the latter. Convinced that the leaf was absorbing some meaty flavor from
the prey on the lobes, Darwin tested all types of proteins and substances
on the leaf. But these studies were for naught, as he could not induce trap
closure with any of his treatments.

His contemporary John Burdon-Sanderson made the crucial discovery
that explained the triggering mechanism once and for all. Burdon-
Sanderson, a professor of practical physiology at University College in
London and a physician by training, studied the electrical impulses found
in all animals, from frogs to mammals, but from his correspondence with
Darwin became particularly fascinated by the Venus flytrap. Burdon-
Sanderson carefully placed an electrode in the Venus flytrap leaf, and he
discovered that pushing on two hairs released an action potential very
similar to those he observed when animal muscles contract. He found that
it took several seconds for the electrical current to return to its resting
state after it had been initiated. He realized that when an insect brushes
up against the hairs inside the trap, it induces a depolarization that is
detected in both lobes.

Burdon-Sanderson’s discovery that pressure on two hairs leads to an
electrical signal that is followed by the trap closing was one of the most
important of his career and was the first demonstration that electrical
activity regulates plant development. But he could only hypothesize that
the electric signal was the direct cause of trap closure. More than one
hundred years later, Alexander Volkov and his colleagues at Oakwood
University in Alabama proved that the electric stimulation itself is the
causative signal for the trap’s closing. They applied a form of electric
shock therapy to the open lobes of the plant, and it caused the trap to
close without any direct touch to the trigger hairs. Volkov’s work and
earlier research in other labs also made it clear that the trap remembers if
only a single trigger hair has been touched, and then it waits until a
second hair is triggered before closing. Only very recently did this
research shed light on the mechanism that allows the Venus flytrap to
remember how many of its hairs have been triggered, which I’ll explore
in chapter six. Before we get to the ways in which plants remember, we
need to take some time with the connection between the electric signal
and the movement of the leaves.

Peace!

P-
 

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
I think it's safe to say we are all a little bit of organic/plant nerds lol. I'd get some strange looks bringing this up in casual conversation on the street! This is from What a Plant Knows:


The amazing characteristics of the Venus flytrap led Charles Darwin,
who was among the first scientists to publish an in-depth study of the
plant and other carnivorous flora, to describe it as “one of the most
wonderful [plants] in the world.” Darwin’s interest in carnivorous plants
illustrates how naive curiosity can lead a trained scientist to
groundbreaking discoveries. Darwin begins his 1875 treatise
Insectivorous Plants in this way: “During the summer of 1860, I was
surprised by finding how large a number of insects were caught by the
leaves of the common sun-dew [plant] (Drosera rotundifolia) on a heath
in Sussex. I had heard that insects were thus caught, but knew nothing
further on the subject.” From knowing virtually nothing about the matter,
Darwin became the foremost expert on carnivorous plants, including the
Venus flytrap, in the nineteenth century, and indeed his work is still
referenced today.

We now know that the Venus flytrap feels its prey and senses if the
organism crawling around inside its trap is the right size to consume.
There are several large black hairs on the pink surface of the inside of
each lobe, and the hairs act as triggers that spring the trap closed. But one
hair being touched is not enough to spring the trap; studies have revealed
that at least two have to be touched within about twenty seconds of each
other. This ensures that the prey is the ideal size and won’t be able to
wiggle out of the trap once it closes. The hairs are extremely sensitive,
but they are also very selective. As Darwin noted in his book
Insectivorous Plants:

Drops of water, or a thin broken stream, falling from a
height on the filaments [hairs], did not cause the blades to
close … No doubt, the plant is indifferent to the heaviest
shower of rain … I blew many times through a fine
pointed tube with my utmost force against the filaments
without any effect; such blowing being received with as
much indifference as no doubt is a heavy gale of wind. We
thus see that the sensitiveness of the filaments is of a
specialized nature.

Even though Darwin described in great detail the series of events
leading to trap closure and the nutritional advantage of the animal protein
to the plants, he couldn’t come up with the mechanism of the signal that
differentiated between rain and fly and enabled the rapid imprisonment of
the latter. Convinced that the leaf was absorbing some meaty flavor from
the prey on the lobes, Darwin tested all types of proteins and substances
on the leaf. But these studies were for naught, as he could not induce trap
closure with any of his treatments.

His contemporary John Burdon-Sanderson made the crucial discovery
that explained the triggering mechanism once and for all. Burdon-
Sanderson, a professor of practical physiology at University College in
London and a physician by training, studied the electrical impulses found
in all animals, from frogs to mammals, but from his correspondence with
Darwin became particularly fascinated by the Venus flytrap. Burdon-
Sanderson carefully placed an electrode in the Venus flytrap leaf, and he
discovered that pushing on two hairs released an action potential very
similar to those he observed when animal muscles contract. He found that
it took several seconds for the electrical current to return to its resting
state after it had been initiated. He realized that when an insect brushes
up against the hairs inside the trap, it induces a depolarization that is
detected in both lobes.

Burdon-Sanderson’s discovery that pressure on two hairs leads to an
electrical signal that is followed by the trap closing was one of the most
important of his career and was the first demonstration that electrical
activity regulates plant development. But he could only hypothesize that
the electric signal was the direct cause of trap closure. More than one
hundred years later, Alexander Volkov and his colleagues at Oakwood
University in Alabama proved that the electric stimulation itself is the
causative signal for the trap’s closing. They applied a form of electric
shock therapy to the open lobes of the plant, and it caused the trap to
close without any direct touch to the trigger hairs. Volkov’s work and
earlier research in other labs also made it clear that the trap remembers if
only a single trigger hair has been touched, and then it waits until a
second hair is triggered before closing. Only very recently did this
research shed light on the mechanism that allows the Venus flytrap to
remember how many of its hairs have been triggered, which I’ll explore
in chapter six. Before we get to the ways in which plants remember, we
need to take some time with the connection between the electric signal
and the movement of the leaves.

Peace!

P-
Lol yes we are. I need to get my hands on this book. Or any book one them
 

zonderkop

Well-Known Member
Has anyone encountered the idea of Ocean fertilization? Adding iron increases phytoplankton growth, which leads to the ocean absorbing more atmospheric carbon. increasing sperm whale populations does the same thing: their shit naturally adds iron.
 

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
so i finally found a 50lb bag of kelp meal here in texas!!! they want $130.I asked the lady if that included lube smh.its come out 10 bucks cheaper if i ship it from the right coast.
x713, that's just ridiculous, lube is right. The price from da hydro guys around here is $98 and I refuse to pay that. You have to have somewhere that sells livestock feed? Should be about $60 from a feed store. I think it's even a little less than that around here.

P-
 
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