Religion Poisons Everything

morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
Higher Education said:
Hey everyone! I've got an idea! Let's watch Richard Dawkins make an ass of himself by using phrases like "flying spaghetti monsters" and ASSuming a woman was brought up Christian just because she lives in America!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg&feature=fvw
Click to expand...
He states that he is making a presumption right at the opening. He can make this assumption because 70 percent of Americans call themselves Christian. He is speaking at Liberty University, the motto of which is "Training Champions for Christ". He can then assume, with a substantially better than 70 percent chance of being right, that she is Christian. And she is questioning statements he just made, which put the view into context. She has the opportunity to correct him if he is wrong.

I don't see what's asinine about referring to the probabilities of existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Celestial Teapot or any other religion in comparison to God or Jesus.
Unless you have the preconceived notion that any or all of them is real, there is nothing to prove the existence of any one is more probable than the other.

The full lecture is quite interesting.
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
OregonMeds said:
You know what he meant... Do unto others, don't rape your sister, those kind of values.
Click to expand...
The Jesus Camp evangelists specifically calls for the death of Harry Potter if he was a real boy and goes on about demons and witches. There was no redeeming value in anything those people forced on those children at all.
 
Higher Education

Higher Education

Well-Known Member
OregonMeds said:
You know what he meant... Do unto others, don't rape your sister, those kind of values.
Click to expand...
Thank you sir, you obviously knew what I meant.



morgentaler said:
He states that he is making a presumption right at the opening. He can make this assumption because 70 percent of Americans call themselves Christian. He is speaking at Liberty University, the motto of which is "Training Champions for Christ". He can then assume, with a substantially better than 70 percent chance of being right, that she is Christian. And she is questioning statements he just made, which put the view into context. She has the opportunity to correct him if he is wrong.
Click to expand...
You make a valid point about him being at Liberty University. I didn't realize they were Christian. I too go to a Christian university, but it's most likely more secular than Liberty. We have a significant number of people trying to start a gay rights club behind the university's back.

Actually the latest polls suggest somewhere around 83% of americans call themselves Christians(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html) . The poll also reported 50 denominations. There are so many twisted views being taught (in relation to the bible, not your views) and people using religion as a hierarchy that very few of these people are actually true christians. I've read several places that only 5-10% percent of self-proclaimed christians know the fundemental values and believes of christianity and fewer than that actually follow them. I am not saying this to negate your point, but to state my frustration with religion too.

morgentaler said:
I don't see what's asinine about referring to the probabilities of existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Celestial Teapot or any other religion in comparison to God or Jesus.
Unless you have the preconceived notion that any or all of them is real, there is nothing to prove the existence of any one is more probable than the other.

The full lecture is quite interesting.
Click to expand...
You are right, there would be no basis for one being more probable than the other if there were no preconceived notions. However, there are preconceptions about God and why he exists though. Some of the preconceptions about God that I subscribe to are derived from a large volume of scientific data that is suggestive of a creator. Whether you judge this data as suggestively valid, but not necessarily proof, or not, is up to you. There are several noteworthy scientists that do though. The percentage of believers among the scientific community has also stayed the same despite our increased knowledge in the theory of evolution and our increased general knowledge. 40% of scientists believed in God in 1916. 40% of scientists in 1997 also believed in God. These two surveys were controlled and conducted randomly, which is consistent with the laws of probability. The sample size in both surveys was 1,000. Assuming the sampling was random, which it was as I previously stated, the margin of error can be determined by this formula. Standard error=the square root of((p)(1-p)/n). Using this we can show the margin of error is around 3%. That would mean that even if there is a 3% percent error in the data, there still wouldn't be a huge fluctuation between believers and non-believers among the scientific community over this time frame.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n22_v91/ai_19332942/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

I also realize you might not know what "suggestive data" i'm referring to above, but ask me if you care enough to consider it with a neutral mindset, and i'll be glad to show it to you. That goes for anyone else who is reading this too.

morgentaler said:
The Jesus Camp evangelists specifically calls for the death of Harry Potter if he was a real boy and goes on about demons and witches. There was no redeeming value in anything those people forced on those children at all.
Click to expand...

I did say I only saw some of this.



This is interesting too, by the way, and i've only watched a little bit of it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
Higher Education said:
However, there are preconceptions about God and why he exists though. Some of the preconceptions about God that I subscribe to are derived from a large volume of scientific data that is suggestive of a creator. Whether you judge this data as suggestively valid, but not necessarily proof, or not, is up to you.
Click to expand...
I'd actually be quite interested in seeing scientific data that suggests such a thing.
The closest thing I've seen so far is Michael Behe's assertion that some features of biological organisms must be the product of divine creation because they are irreducibly complex and cannot function without the whole. He uses the bacterial flagellum as an example. But experiments have shown that if you remove parts of flagella some of the configurations still function. Not necessarily in the identical role, but in a way that is still beneficial to the organism. They were able to remove 80% of the parts from one and were left with a small fluid injector and transfer pump on the side of the bacteria.
Ken Miller covers it in this video: http://www.encyclopedia.com/video/K_HVrjKcvrU-irreducible-complexity-bacterial-flagellum-debunked.aspx

There are several noteworthy scientists that do though. The percentage of believers among the scientific community has also stayed the same despite our increased knowledge in the theory of evolution and our increased general knowledge. 40% of scientists believed in God in 1916. 40% of scientists in 1997 also believed in God.
Click to expand...
I'm familiar with Larson's study and the results he obtained. Here's an interesting letter about the study in Larson's own words:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

Belief among the 'greater' scientists.
Belief in personal God 1914 1933 1998
Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

Belief in human immortality 1914 1933 1998
Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9
Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3


I also realize you might not know what "suggestive data" i'm referring to above, but ask me if you care enough to consider it with a neutral mindset, and i'll be glad to show it to you. That goes for anyone else who is reading this too.
Click to expand...
Go for it, but I must warn you that I'm not neutral on faith disguised as science. So vet your sources carefully so I don't Hulk out :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y
Click to expand...
Cool, should be a good watch. Collins is an interesting character.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
Higher Education said:
Actually the latest polls suggest somewhere around 83% of americans call themselves Christians(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html) . The poll also reported 50 denominations. There are so many twisted views being taught (in relation to the bible, not your views) and people using religion as a hierarchy that very few of these people are actually true christians. I've read several places that only 5-10% percent of self-proclaimed christians know the fundemental values and believes of christianity and fewer than that actually follow them. I am not saying this to negate your point, but to state my frustration with religion too.



You are right, there would be no basis for one being more probable than the other if there were no preconceived notions. However, there are preconceptions about God and why he exists though. Some of the preconceptions about God that I subscribe to are derived from a large volume of scientific data that is suggestive of a creator. Whether you judge this data as suggestively valid, but not necessarily proof, or not, is up to you. There are several noteworthy scientists that do though. The percentage of believers among the scientific community has also stayed the same despite our increased knowledge in the theory of evolution and our increased general knowledge. 40% of scientists believed in God in 1916. 40% of scientists in 1997 also believed in God. These two surveys were controlled and conducted randomly, which is consistent with the laws of probability. The sample size in both surveys was 1,000. Assuming the sampling was random, which it was as I previously stated, the margin of error can be determined by this formula. Standard error=the square root of((p)(1-p)/n). Using this we can show the margin of error is around 3%. That would mean that even if there is a 3% percent error in the data, there still wouldn't be a huge fluctuation between believers and non-believers among the scientific community over this time frame.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n22_v91/ai_19332942/pg_2/?tag=content;col1
Click to expand...

First off, good, thorough post. Looks like you took some time and did some research, which I appreciate, I'm sure others do too.

I did want to point something out though. The source you used, I couldn't tell if that was an article written in 2009 about a study conducted in 1997 or if the study was conducted in 2009, regardless, I've seen had this exact same issue with other people as well. The article doesn't go into defining what "God" is. It's vague, I've always suspected purposefully, to make the figure seem higher than it actually would be if the question were instead "Do you believe in the Abrahamic God of the Bible?" - most scientists believe that there might be some intelligence of some kind behind the existence of the universe... that's a long shot from saying "the Biblical God is real".

That's all.
 
Brazko

Brazko

Well-Known Member
Higher Education said:
This is interesting too, by the way, and i've only watched a little bit of it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjJAWuzno9Y
Click to expand...
The video was pretty good.., I've just finished it.., I was feeling kinda "Oh, Oh" at first, but this guy did lay a broader insight into the moderate per se' realms of christanity, if there is such a thing. I didn't agree with some of his implied insights of God, and some other points made that I need further looking into, but I believe he said it best in that some people only need a little of nothing to move forward in their faith, while others may need more to move forward in their faith..,

All in All, a excellent video with some familiar, but good Q&A..., I believe he could've gave more insight as well to his perception of God, but I too, believe it would only deter the understanding of another.., I like the guy that asked for a few Bullet Points to understand, but it takes more than somebody given you bits of their summarized beliefs.., It's been a long Q&A towards progression to understanding, And the Q&A isn't always by another person, but to yourself.., the hardest questions and greatest answers will always come from you..


++rep, liked it
:peace:
 
OregonMeds

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Higher Education said:
clip-

Actually the latest polls suggest somewhere around 83% of americans call themselves Christians

clip-

The percentage of believers among the scientific community has also stayed the same despite our increased knowledge in the theory of evolution and our increased general knowledge. 40% of scientists believed in God in 1916. 40% of scientists in 1997 also believed in God.
Click to expand...
The percentage stayed the same and you focus on that, but what it says to me is that for the last 100 years educated scientists have been half as likely to believe in any form of god as non scientists. This despite probable indoctrination in their youth. They learned the god out of themselves is my take on it, because never can anyone convince another person he doesn't exist, that just doesn't happen.

Others held onto their beliefs despite pretty hefty evidence to the contrary both then and now.

Human nature doesn't change over time, not just 100 years, so the statistics you focus on thinking it's something in your favor actually should be the same and are meaningless.
 
Higher Education

Higher Education

Well-Known Member
Hey everyone! I am still going to post the information that I had mentioned before and respond to people's comments. I have just been super busy and feeling quite lazy during my free time. I also just finished the majority of my first harvest so I am pretty excited about that. I have 11 ounces curing and about 5 more still drying. Unfortuanately, I have to sell most of it to upgrade me next grow and pay bills. Hope everyone is doing well!
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
Higher Education said:
Hey everyone! I am still going to post the information that I had mentioned before and respond to people's comments. I have just been super busy and feeling quite lazy during my free time. I also just finished the majority of my first harvest so I am pretty excited about that. I have 11 ounces curing and about 5 more still drying. Unfortuanately, I have to sell most of it to upgrade me next grow and pay bills. Hope everyone is doing well!
Click to expand...
Nice! Congrats on your grow dude! :bigjoint:
 
S

seifer699

Active Member
ThaDutchieCouple said:
Hi everyone :lol:

If you all havnt relized already, im an athiest. And i dont come by it lighty. I think about it pretty much everyday, its hard not too, if God exists and I choose to be an atheist, then that means when i die I am deliberately choosing torture for eternety, when the other option is to live forever in paradise, hevean.

Ofcourse i wish there was an all-knowing powerfull caring and loving creator that loves me, knows my path in life ( and every other 6 billion of us). But you have to know when to tell fact from fiction and this myth clearly. I know alot of people believe in god because they are affraid of death(like most of us are)

I dont know how people can believe all of these lies. I mean, if all the evidence you has is a man-written bible, i dont understand why im destined for hell just for not having faith and turning my life over to be a follower of god. I mean, its just common knowledge not to believe, i think. But clearly many think other wise.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva] (Jeremiah 32:17) Ah Lord GOD! You have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm, nothing is too hard for you.

If god really has power on the world, why do we face poverty, murder, war, flesh eating diseases, cancer, global warming, child abuse, dictatorship, racism and sexism, slavery.. the list goes on and on.
Why havnt any of these critical issues changed? Why hasnt god saved any of them?
You say you can talk to the guy, so i'd be interested to hear you think.

I could be wrong, but its my take on it all.

I always love a good debate, dont worry i dont bite :twisted:
:weed::leaf::bigjoint:

 [/FONT]
Click to expand...
very true, but think of it in a bigger picture, humans are very intelligent and are put on earth how? by random ? i dont think so, there must be a deity that controls the universe. maybe possibly there are high beings controlling difernt universes and galaxies. no one really knows, but what i know is there is a God. religions are all similiar and have no real author, there is too much evidence on this. watch this if you want http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
 
Woodstock.Hippie

Woodstock.Hippie

New Member
I don't believe eligion poisons everything.

May I be so bold as to risk getting my feet roasted off by the Catholic Church for proposing the following:

religion = myth ?

Is it possible to believe in both at the same time?

Some seem to make more sense when the the two words are exchanged in their text.

Do all Priests everywhere really believe the Inquisition will be forever over?
 
ThaDutchieCouple

ThaDutchieCouple

Member
Woodstock.Hippie said:
I don't believe eligion poisons everything.

May I be so bold as to risk getting my feet roasted off by the Catholic Church for proposing the following:

religion = myth ?

Do all Priests everywhere really believe the inquisition is forever over?
Click to expand...
Religion does poision everything because it is infectious. One person believes, has children, they believe, and they pass it down to the next generation when they have children. Christians knowing that children will believe anything they hear, even if its complete nonsence, make sure to drill their beliefs onto them while they are still young and beliving in other nonsence such as the existance of Santa, the tooth fairy etc.
Its a never ending cycle, but it can be stopped if children are given other options, and the right to choose. Keeping children in religious schools away from these other options and science, is a forceful way to keep them on a leash and not know anything but what they have been told.
 
undertheice

undertheice

Well-Known Member
ThaDutchieCouple said:
Christians knowing that children will believe anything they hear, even if its complete nonsense, make sure to drill their beliefs onto them while they are still young.....
Its a never ending cycle, but it can be stopped if children are given other options.....
Click to expand...
just who is it that should decide what information the young should hear, if not their parents? perhaps you would prefer that society steps in and indoctrinates our children, forbidding parents from introducing their offspring to anything that is not approved by the state. what would you like to see replace those lessons in morality that are inherent in most of our childhood religious teachings?

people believe a lot of crazy shit and they will inevitably hand down those beliefs to their children. this is a part of the price all children pay in an attempt to erase the debt they owe their parents for their very existence. throughout our childhoods we absorb the wisdom of our elders. the little truths, the misconceptions, the well intentioned hints at the miseries to come, and all those other bits and pieces of our parents are taken in and stored for later use. on leaving home we choose which of these bits and pieces to take to heart and which to throw away. there must be some need in those that choose to retain their religious upbringing. a need that only those fables can fill. you can't fill that hole by merely denying children access to religion.
 
morgentaler

morgentaler

Well-Known Member
The simplest way to eliminate religion is not to mandate it out of peoples lives, but rather to just provide quality education in the public school system.

The more educated a person is the less likely they are to believe in gods, myths, and other nonsense.

Even with the poor budgeting allotted to schools, education through the internet, documentaries, and other science related programming has given kids an awareness of the world that just wasn't available even a generation ago.

Atheism isn't a blip or an aberration. It is the natural state of birth and with each passing day more people revert to it.
 
Woodstock.Hippie

Woodstock.Hippie

New Member
I believe no amount of information will ever remove Myth from the human psyche.

New information can invalidate certain religious dogma but,

you can never unlearn Hercules

or know for certain what lies beyond his Pillars.
 
ThaDutchieCouple

ThaDutchieCouple

Member
undertheice said:
what would you like to see replace those lessons in morality that are inherent in most of our childhood religious teachings?

you can't fill that hole by merely denying children access to religion.
Click to expand...

I would like to see children learning evolution, science, and the beauty of nature for starters. Children learn the earth was created in 7 days, and basically that the earth is a waiting room until they die, to go to the real party, afterlife. They are not taught the magnificent truths about our planet, and how it actually came to be. Also how it is now being destroyed by people who think the world could end any day now, and have no thoughts for further in the future. I watched Jesus Camp the other day, the religious mother and son were commenting on a serious crisis we face global warming, stating they dont think it is actually a problem saying the temperature has only increased slightly in the past few years.
People cant think like this anymore period.

As for denying children "access" to religion, i can agree. But unfortunatly children are not allowed access, they are brainwashed at young ages. If people wanted to really give a human being a choice, they would wait until the person is old enough to not believe everything they hear, and have the abiltity to think for themselves, or atleast show the other options. But that hasnt happened and i doubt it will, because they know the likely hood of being tought the bible without any religious background, and not as a child, they would simply not belive such bullshit!
 
ThaDutchieCouple

ThaDutchieCouple

Member
seifer699 said:
very true, but think of it in a bigger picture, humans are very intelligent and are put on earth how? by random ? i dont think so, there must be a deity that controls the universe. maybe possibly there are high beings controlling difernt universes and galaxies. no one really knows, but what i know is there is a God. religions are all similiar and have no real author, there is too much evidence on this. watch this if you want http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Click to expand...

I've thought of that question too. Nobody will know our purpose, but what if its to just EXIST? I mean our planet in my opinion is my God, its truely beautiful and we get to experience so much, in my opionion if you live a long life here, your more than lucky and i would have no desire to go to any fluffy heaven to do...what for eternity, chill with god and his other millions of followers? Id rather burn down under with the other smart thinking people. But i guess we wont know until its too late!
I've seen zeitgeist and thought it was a great film, highly reccommed it to everyone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top