Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
I know ttystik is doing it right now, AFAIK, but he was using salts before as it was. A number of emails have come through the website thanking me for doing it. But, by and large, you're right. Most people aren't willing to try it.



I understand. And I get it. You've been trying to convince people for longer than I have. So I understand why you might be a bit cynical about it. But that's no reason to stop.
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I changed my substrate from RDWC to Tupur and kept using the dry salts I was using. I'm getting starkly better results already and I'm excited to see what comes in flower.

It's still important to me to continue my education about what nutrients are and how they work. The knowledge has already saved me hundreds of dollars just to replicate the grow nutes of the guy who helped me switch.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
The connection is that people have ADHD and come to a thread intended to teach DIY hydro nutes (i think) with the intention of learning the best way to apply humus and silicates. It really is a complete distraction. Humic acids should have nothing to do with a hydro grow. It's added to products purposefully to confuse people into thinking they're harder to reverse engineer than they really are. I can assure you that the humic acids in whatever nutrient product you're using will cause negligible difference, if any on growth.

Even though it might seem like there's strong evidence for the use of silica, there really isn't. I haven't seen a single study on silica that was properly controlled. Every single application of silica also included the addition of calcium or potassium, and did not make up for those added minerals in the control groups. For every 1 study on silica, there are 100 studies on phosphorous, and there's a really good reason for that. (no such thing as a silicon deficiency is a strong indication that it serves no purpose).

I know it really seems like my main intention is to troll this thread, but I honestly just don't get this. How are people supposed to learn the basics when they're so focused on... the shit.... Lesson 1... plants need N.
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Unnecessary does NOT mean useless. You're right, there isn't such a thing as a silicon deficiency. But it's not a useless fertilizer.

I do understand your reasoning now, but you weren't that clear with it before. Yes, everyone should start with understand that plants need nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. But remember, none of us are college professors. And making a post on the forums here is bound to get buried if there isn't continued discussion.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
Unnecessary does NOT mean useless. You're right, there isn't such a thing as a silicon deficiency. But it's not a useless fertilizer.

I do understand your reasoning now, but you weren't that clear with it before. Yes, everyone should start with understand that plants need nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. But remember, none of us are college professors. And making a post on the forums here is bound to get buried if there isn't continued discussion.
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I'd add that the single biggest difference between full hydroponics and nutes meant for soil is the use of calcium nitrate to ensure soluble calcium in a water based system.
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
Well this thread has been an education, Thanks MisterBlah and ttystikk and church.
What happened with the shop on the website? I don't see it @MisterBlah
You've done a great job of showing up all these Big brand labels as been just good at advertising and equally good at over complicating formulas to keep simpletons like me confused to the actual content. Personally I started with canna and stuck with it because I never had any issues. Now I have read the thread and thought about it I would of thought that canna boost is much the same a most of the other flowering boosters, but could canna rhizotonic contain kelp? Root stimulating properties, anti stress, hormones, enzymes ect.
 
outlier

outlier

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
Everyone has questions regarding this. And it's primarily because they haven't done it before. I am happy to repeat answers to questions that have been asked over and over again. I am happy to do it until the end of days. So, seriously, stop trolling this thread.
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If the world had more people like you, fuck, it would be such a better place. Hats off to ya mate :bigjoint:
 
guerrilla medic

guerrilla medic

Well-Known Member
@churchhaze i didn't come into the thread needing a lesson on npk. i was and still am curious about adding silica and fulvic acid to our current program. why that is any concern of yours whatsoever eludes me. if it does nothing so be it, but we're going to check it out for ourselves. i read through your posts in this thread and you may be a good grower who dialed in your own custom recipe...great. you also come off as attention hungry and bitter for your perceived lack of acknowledgement. throw up some pics of your massive frosty grows you're knocking down like clockwork. maybe you'll get more people on board than just pissing and moaning all the time.
 
pinner420

pinner420

Well-Known Member
guerrilla medic said:
@churchhaze i didn't come into the thread needing a lesson on npk. i was and still am curious about adding silica and fulvic acid to our current program. why that is any concern of yours whatsoever eludes me. if it does nothing so be it, but we're going to check it out for ourselves. i read through your posts in this thread and you may be a good grower who dialed in your own custom recipe...great. you also come off as attention hungry and bitter for your perceived lack of acknowledgement. throw up some pics of your massive frosty grows you're knocking down like clockwork. maybe you'll get more people on board than just pissing and moaning all the time.
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He's grizzled... I've been using the raw omina for my left turning aminos to mobilize the calcium throughout my plants with great success. As ttystikk eluded to you guessed it you need more calcium. I've not gotten my 50lb bag of calcium nitrate yet but I did pick up some plant amp by cutting edge.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
coreywebster said:
Well this thread has been an education, Thanks MisterBlah and ttystikk and church.
What happened with the shop on the website? I don't see it @MisterBlah
You've done a great job of showing up all these Big brand labels as been just good at advertising and equally good at over complicating formulas to keep simpletons like me confused to the actual content. Personally I started with canna and stuck with it because I never had any issues. Now I have read the thread and thought about it I would of thought that canna boost is much the same a most of the other flowering boosters, but could canna rhizotonic contain kelp? Root stimulating properties, anti stress, hormones, enzymes ect.
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So, the shop was there for a little while and then I took it down because I realized I didn't really want to do it that much. I still have open distributor accounts that I've made use of and that I will continue to use for me and some friends of mine, so if you want anything specific, just let me know and I can help you out there. Or, at the very least, give you an idea on what is easy to get.

In regards to Canna Rhizotonic, I'm almost 100% sure it's IBA + kelp. And neither of those are cheap products, so it makes sense to me as to why it's so expensive. But still, more expensive that it needs to be. As I had mentioned just before, I do have those open distributor accounts, so I can get water soluble kelp power, but only in 25lb bags, and I can get 20% IBA salts, but only 100g minimum. Kelp powder is about $10-12/lb and IBA salts are really fucking expensive. Like $2.00/gram. But, the levels you want to use the two of those are really low, so Rhizotonic can be made yourself that way for about $40-50/gallon instead of $200. I can elaborate on this as well as the various uses of a product like rhizotonic if you want.
 
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coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
Ah well as far as the online shop goes, I don't blame you for not wanting to spend all that time involved with running it, especially since a lot of folks will still pay way over the odds for a branded product from their local hydro supermarket. Makes no odds to me, I'm in a different part of the world to you so sourcing more locally would likely be more cost effective, I just wondered what the crack with it was.

As for the Rhizotonic, I'm glad I was half right.. lol. I only use it sparingly because its expensive.
As far as the IBA goes, would this be the right salts?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/IBA-K-Indole-3-Butyric-acid_60355763478.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.iSvzCS
I could get a 1-100gram free sample (well provided there's no catch, which given the price you say its worth there must be)
Not sure on the how trustworthy a source like that would be either.

Feel free to elaborate, I'm all ears.

I dare say I probably would not go to the trouble of mixing my own canna coco A+B but with Rhizo I would be up for that.
I only grow small amounts but plenty of my friends would be up for splitting costs.

Again cheers for creating this thread in the first place. Your a clever chap indeed. :clap:
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
guerrilla medic said:
throw up some pics of your massive frosty grows you're knocking down like clockwork. maybe you'll get more people on board than just pissing and moaning all the time.
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This doesn't even make sense. Not to be knocking MisterBlah or anything, but he hasn't showed you any pics either. I have no idea what makes you all want to trust him over everyone else who's showed up here posting recipes. Had I not spoken on this thread, you'd have all been copying ironless formulas and FAILING. (not that anyone seems to have been trying any of them)

Maybe if you were less concerned with superficial bullshit you might realize that I'm here to help. (just maybe not you). I know how to grow with DIY nutes and it's clear people need a lot of help. I even helped MisterBlah at first who was mixing stock solutions incorrectly. (while teaching people how to make stock solutions) He was telling people that ppm meant 1mg of X mixed with 1L of water, but it's really 1mg of X in a 1L solution. This would have caused all stock solutions to be inaccurate. (not that anyone seems to have been trying) But at least it was written with charm, right?

Sorry if you all don't like scrutiny, but there's no need to get angry when it's mostly on point.
 
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guerrilla medic

guerrilla medic

Well-Known Member
Brother I don't trust misterblah over everyone else. He made this reverse engineering thread and I was curious how the big companies are incorporating humic acid and silicon into their nutrients. I'm not sure why that bothers you. I'm not angry. If you don't believe that there are any discernible benefits to adding humic/fulvic or silicon I respect your opinion. I believe that you have plenty of experience mixing salts with success and seem to know your shit. I don't think anyone is discounting your knowledge, maybe just your delivery. I haven't used any of the reverse engineered recipes but I fail to understand your problem with misterblah posting them or people trying them. I may try out the canna coco recipe eventually. Everybody love everybody. ELE
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
What's it used for?
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Monosilicic acid? Primarily as a pure silica additive in the form that plants uptake quicker. It's H4SiO4.

If you look into the silica cycle in soil you'll find that silicates(SiO3) go through a chemical change to SiO4. It's a slow process and you usually add silicates like potassium silicate to your soil months before the growing season. Using a monosilicic acid, you don't have to wait, basically. Plants will uptake SiO4 ions at a faster rate than SiO3 ions. And all these reasons are why silicic acid is commonly used on turf, at golf courses, for example, where you need quick growth turn around.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
Monosilicic acid? Primarily as a pure silica additive in the form that plants uptake quicker. It's H4SiO4.

If you look into the silica cycle in soil you'll find that silicates(SiO3) go through a chemical change to SiO4. It's a slow process and you usually add silicates like potassium silicate to your soil months before the growing season. Using a monosilicic acid, you don't have to wait, basically. Plants will uptake SiO4 ions at a faster rate than SiO3 ions. And all these reasons are why silicic acid is commonly used on turf, at golf courses, for example, where you need quick growth turn around.
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Thank you! "Highly" educational!
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Thank you! "Highly" educational!
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One thing you should not think is that potassium silicates like Agsil 16H are now obsolete. They are still the best value for silicate additions.

However, if you're like me and you are very specific in your nutrient concentrations, adding potassium silicates can be tougher to work with for hydroponics. Sometimes you get every nutrient in order and then you want to add a silica product and you can't add as much as you want since your potassium concentration is already in place. So, I may use something like a silicic acid to meet my silica goals without modifying anything else.

Additionally, you don't want to use silica products like a silicic acid for your entire growth cycle. Doing it 2-3 times per week during vegetative growth is plenty and you only need it at 20-50ppm. You might use it more sparingly during the first few weeks of flower as well. So, a liquid product like the one I linked to can go a long way.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
pinner420 said:
Mills Vitalize 300 a ltr for silicic acid. Proud...
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There something else I want to add about product like Mills Vitalize, OSA28, Aptus Fasilitor or most other silicic acid products.

Many of them are fertilizer blends with additions of P, K, or maybe micronutrients. Doing so is pointless. If you need silica, add silica. You don't need to add P or K along with it in an additive. It's just nonsensical to include other nutrients in this type of an additive when you are already getting them from your primary fertilizer blends.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Thank you! "Highly" educational!
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One more thing!

Using stabilized silicic acid products allows you to use them in stock solutions. I'm not sure if you've tried making a stock solution of potassium silicates, but it's very basic and it is almost entirely useless in a stock solution as it precipitates out of solution below about pH 11. Stabilized silicic acids can work in acidic and mildly basic stock solutions. It is generally just more versatile. But again, it's expensive. Still the most expensive fertilizer I've ever used.
 
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