STAY AWAY FROM LED's!!!!!

collective gardener

collective gardener

Well-Known Member
NewGrowth said:
What sativa's are you growing Bob? Recently grew some Serious bubblegum, kidna reminded me of C99. Nice up high and finished in about 9weeks give or take.
Collective: you're right on that one I spent $1500/mo for just 10k watts in a warehouse. We have an extra cheap rate here now though in our new place. The power company is a co-op and most of what we get is solar. I'm running over 20k watts for $700/mo!! Pretty stoked, prior to that I was filling a gas generator . . .
Ps- bulbs cost $20 because I buy bulk manufacture direct. I believe they retail for around $100/ea well after they're re-branded ;)
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You have some pics of your 20K grow? You can see mine in the link with my sig.
 
NewGrowth

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Shut down currently, we're getting ready for the greenhouse harvest! I'll be sure to remember to show you some pics when I can use a computer :lol: We're on the side of the mountain here, all I've got is my iPhone currently. I believe there are some older pics in my grow journal. When we are done harvesting I'll add some more pics of our vertical grows. We really enjoy this big plant indoor style! Much improved from my old days of SOG flood trays . . . I'll take 10-24oz/plant anyday!
 
B

bob harris

Well-Known Member
collective gardener said:
I really want LEDs to get to the point where we can use them. The cooling component of my power bill is probably $400+. You take that out and the bulb changes, before long I'd save enough money to repay just about any initial purchase price for the LEDs. I have a feeling induction lighting may actually soon surpass LEDs. If we look at what T-5's have done for flourescent lighting it's obvious that flourescent type lighting has a future.

Much of the new lighting potential will be dependant on canopy shape and plant size. About 15 years ago I grew a 4x8 test tray of Northern Lights. I planted 9 plants per sq ft in 4" rockwool blocks. The plants were only vegged to 6" tall. At completion they were under 12". BUT, that tray yielded just under 5lbs! My point is, it doesn't take much light penetration to grow a highly productive canopy like that one. Current LED and/or induction lighting might be able to pull that off. Unfortunately, my current op is legal and I have plant count to consider. 288 plants in one 4x8 tray would use almost my whole limit in 1/6th my bloom room space. With plant count limitations we're seeing bigger and bigger plants. This is going the other direction from what LED and induction would be good for. In fact, I think plants may be getting bigger faster than LEDs are getting brighter. LOL.
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Canopy shape and size is the problem with led's. Constant re adjusting of position to keep the lights close enough to work. I agree with the big plant thought too...I only get 12 total. With a permanent Mom, that's 5 in flower one batch, 6 the next.

In a large scale grow you simply can't manage constant re positioning of lights and plants.
 
Clonex

Clonex

Well-Known Member
Jack Harer said:
Thats what I'm waiting to see myself. I grow big assed lolli-pops. If they can do that, I'm in. At least to test the water anyway.
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sensible statements like this make sense - lets face it , who would not want to swap from hid to led ? the advantages are obvious to everyone from Less wiring/no ballasts/cheaper to run/safer/lighter/cooler/bulbs have longer life, the problem is alot of led companys are talking bullshit for sales , would be so much better if they worked together - i for one am glad ppl are using them and giving us information that is needed , but lets face it until they fix the coverage/penatration/intensity issues we are kinda like:wall:
 
cannawizard

cannawizard

Well-Known Member
Clonex said:
sensible statements like this make sense - lets face it , who would not want to swap from hid to led ? the advantages are obvious to everyone from Less wiring/no ballasts/cheaper to run/safer/lighter/cooler/bulbs have longer life, the problem is alot of led companys are talking bullshit for sales , would be so much better if they worked together - i for one am glad ppl are using them and giving us information that is needed , but lets face it until they fix the coverage/penatration/intensity issues we are kinda like:wall:
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*testing kessils - advLED panels - gravita/luxim/G2/solargenesis3 plasmas.. all being tested, will have write ups, :) someone out there isnt just talking out of their ass.. and is actually doing the footwork instead of QQ'n ;)

---cheers
 
Clonex

Clonex

Well-Known Member
cannawizard said:
*testing kessils - advLED panels - gravita/luxim/G2/solargenesis3 plasmas.. all being tested, will have write ups, :) someone out there isnt just talking out of their ass.. and is actually doing the footwork instead of QQ'n ;)

---cheers
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Could you throw me some links please - would love to check this stuff out , Thank you ...
 
cannawizard

cannawizard

Well-Known Member
*just keep a look out under the AMC section of RIU.. :) those links should be up by the end Oct early Nov..

---TGIF
 
Jack Harer

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
So there really are issues with penetration? I would have argued that point to death (And been WRONG. Dear God forbid). What really got me looking at them seriously was when I FINALLY bought a new QBeam for on the boat. My old one was over a million CP, and I could pick up a marker at night at about 2 miles. My NEW one was LED, and will pick up a marker at over 5 friggin' miles!!! I was assuming that it was more penetration (intensity/power) that explained that. Been wrong before, though. I'm all ears.
 
Clonex

Clonex

Well-Known Member
Jack Harer said:
So there really are issues with penetration? I would have argued that point to death (And been WRONG. Dear God forbid). What really got me looking at them seriously was when I FINALLY bought a new QBeam for on the boat. My old one was over a million CP, and I could pick up a marker at night at about 2 miles. My NEW one was LED, and will pick up a marker at over 5 friggin' miles!!! I was assuming that it was more penetration (intensity/power) that explained that. Been wrong before, though. I'm all ears.
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The light your eye can see is not the same as the light the plant uses ...
 
hoss12781

hoss12781

Well-Known Member
sounds like an argument for led Clonex. The leds I use have infa-red diodes that are not visible to the human eye. In terms of penetration, while I grow autos, my father doesn't. Yes my old man still grows weed. Got him to ditch his hps set up and he is very happy with the 3w diodes. I own some 1w diode leds - they pretty much suck and are only useful as side lights. 3w will fit the bill for just about anything. As cooling technology improves 5w chipsets will become standard and from working with 1, 2, and 3w diodes can say with very little doubt that even the tallest sativa plant would be just fine with penetration and coverage from those. That is, provided they are all in the correct nm spectrum, driven to the appropriate wattage percentage, and fired through the right angle viewing lens.
 
Clonex

Clonex

Well-Known Member
hoss12781 said:
sounds like an argument for led Clonex. The leds I use have infa-red diodes that are not visible to the human eye. In terms of penetration, while I grow autos, my father doesn't. Yes my old man still grows weed. Got him to ditch his hps set up and he is very happy with the 3w diodes. I own some 1w diode leds - they pretty much suck and are only useful as side lights. 3w will fit the bill for just about anything. As cooling technology improves 5w chipsets will become standard and from working with 1, 2, and 3w diodes can say with very little doubt that even the tallest sativa plant would be just fine with penetration and coverage from those. That is, provided they are all in the correct nm spectrum, driven to the appropriate wattage percentage, and fired through the right angle viewing lens.
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i do not get emotional about lights , i laugh when ppl get upset about their choice like its a girlfriend or something , and i am for what works , its true i am a HID user and MH for vegg , but with rising energy costs - i am also no fool , i think , small scale hobby growers should switch now , i would if i was growing stealth , there are many benefits , but for those of us with larger areas and a few more ladies, the time is not yet nigh....
 
ghb

ghb

Well-Known Member
how about i just jump on in without reading the second two pages of this thread and say; try led lights at your own peril, i very nearly bought a shitload of spectra 600w led lights this year in a bid to do a cge grow, so glad i never now. i have not seen one grow where they have outperformed hid lights, irishboy included!
 
DrFever

DrFever

New Member
Finally someone posting a thread on real truth i am sure that LEd do grow obviously they do sire they throw off spectrums but in reality LED is like 50 years away from MH or HPS i think wow you need so many led's to make a room like lets say 12 x 20 where as i could put 5 1000 watters in there and out grow a led for like what 1200.00 how much to make 5000 watts of led :))

i have yet to see any led grow capable of competing with MH or HPS
here what you think of this LED guys 3 " clones transplanted and on 12 th day there like 12 to 16" high lets see a LED do this
oh led makes a thicker plant here look at this
 

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Jack Harer

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
PAR, I know. I studied light and it's properties. I was a Fine Art/Photography major (MA). I was just assuming that with such intensity, that penetration HAD to be good. I can tell ya anything you wanna know about Color temp, different light sources etc. but I'm no longer in the photographic mode. My degree is in a dead technology. (Film) When I was in school, Sony was just starting to play around with the idea of digital imaging and the Mavica. We all looked at each other, scratching our heads, asking "Why?" Who knew?
 
Corso312

Corso312

Well-Known Member
NewGrowth said:
I love how I always have to back up my claims but no one else does. Then we got this dude who has not even used LEDs arguing. LED is junk, if you can't control heat you have improper ventilation. How's this? I have REAL WORLD experience with t5's, HID, and LED's. For the price of the led lights you could buy a small HID and all the fan's, ect you need.

So how does a so called 'pro' grower examine lighting?
Efficiency vs Cost

Led's are by far the wost, reduced yield and high cost.

T5's are the 'middle' ground reduced yeild, poor penetration, higher cost per watt than HID

Now the winner is HID. Why? A 400w HPS puts out more light with greater penetration than an 8 tube t5. If the bulb is exposed it puts off less heat as well. Want to know the kicker? It uses less wattage than the 8tube!

So what are t5's and LED's for?
Growing at home in a really small space (a closet can easily accommodate a 400w hps). They are also a marketing ploy, this stuff is VERY cheap to manufacture. You just pay the 'gimmick' tax.

You are more than welcome to spend thousands on LED's while skimping on other equally important factors in grow space design. Not me though ;)
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no chance my 8 tube t'5's 48" produce more heat than my 400 watt hps..none
 
puffenuff

puffenuff

Well-Known Member
DrFever said:
Finally someone posting a thread on real truth i am sure that LEd do grow obviously they do sire they throw off spectrums but in reality LED is like 50 years away from MH or HPS i think wow you need so many led's to make a room like lets say 12 x 20 where as i could put 5 1000 watters in there and out grow a led for like what 1200.00 how much to make 5000 watts of led :))

i have yet to see any led grow capable of competing with MH or HPS
here what you think of this LED guys 3 " clones transplanted and on 12 th day there like 12 to 16" high lets see a LED do this
oh led makes a thicker plant here look at this
Click to expand...
next time try using punctuation. I have no idea what the point you're trying to make is.
 
collective gardener

collective gardener

Well-Known Member
Well, gang, this thread has come closer than any to having an LED discussion without people ending up all butt-hurt and threatening others with bodily harm. The LED discussion reminds me of any talk of the West Bank. I wonder why folks get so emotional about these lights. They're just fucking lights. LOL.

I'm not a Hater, or a Lover. I'm a hoper. I hope one day these lights can actually replace HID's without a loss in yield or bud density. There are few pieces of garden equipment that look so good on paper, yet underperform in the grow room. I mean, according to the PAR numbers, a 600 watt LED should blow doors on a 1000 watt HPS. Most of us realize, that's really not the case. I wish it was.The LED Lovers are a passionate bunch...and I dig that about them. Nothing pushes progress as much as passion. Unfortunately, all the passion in the world can't seem to get these things to live up to their mathmatical potential. It really makes me question the whole PAR theory. In 20+ years of growing I've come to believe that brightness...whatever the spectrum...is needed to grow big dense buds. I mean, in theory, only about 10% of the HPS spectrum is being used, yet you can't argue with results. In theory a MH is far closer to the sun than an HPS. I've bloomed with pure MH and the results were not nearly as good as HPS. Yet, when I doubled the watts/sq ft on a MH bloom test (from 50 watts/sq ft to 100 watts/sq ft), the results were quite good. I have come to believe that the main benefit of HPS is pure brightness. I mean, that's what that light does better than anything else...makes lumens.

This is not to say that spectrum doesn't play a large role. Before the advent of blue enhanced HPS bulbs, we would run 2 HPS and 1 MH on a Sun Circle light mover for optimal results. Then the Agrosun (and later the Hortilux) bulb was introduced and we could get almost the same results with just HPS. Obviously, with more layout options. In a perfect world, I'd still add a little MH in with my blue enhanced Digilux HPS bulbs. The problem is that it's just not practical.

I agree with many of you that LED and/or induction lighting may be a better choice for closet grows. Especially if the grow is comprised of small plants in high density. I would very much like to see a 400 watt induction light over a 2' x 3' tray containing around 30 - 12" un-topped plants. I could see that tray yielding 12 ozs or so...very respectable. If you were to extrapulate that to a 4x4 tray it would be 2lbs. The problem (as I mentioned in a prior post) is plant count. If you used the same light and tray, but with just 4-5 plants, I'm certain the yield would be a fraction of what could be done with the higher density. With a 600 watt HPS and 4-5 plants in the 2x3 tray, your yield would certainly be far greater that the induction light and 4-5 plants.

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it! Be good, ya'all.
 
cannawizard

cannawizard

Well-Known Member
collective gardener said:
Well, gang, this thread has come closer than any to having an LED discussion without people ending up all butt-hurt and threatening others with bodily harm. The LED discussion reminds me of any talk of the West Bank. I wonder why folks get so emotional about these lights. They're just fucking lights. LOL.

I'm not a Hater, or a Lover. I'm a hoper. I hope one day these lights can actually replace HID's without a loss in yield or bud density. There are few pieces of garden equipment that look so good on paper, yet underperform in the grow room. I mean, according to the PAR numbers, a 600 watt LED should blow doors on a 1000 watt HPS. Most of us realize, that's really not the case. I wish it was.The LED Lovers are a passionate bunch...and I dig that about them. Nothing pushes progress as much as passion. Unfortunately, all the passion in the world can't seem to get these things to live up to their mathmatical potential. It really makes me question the whole PAR theory. In 20+ years of growing I've come to believe that brightness...whatever the spectrum...is needed to grow big dense buds. I mean, in theory, only about 10% of the HPS spectrum is being used, yet you can't argue with results. In theory a MH is far closer to the sun than an HPS. I've bloomed with pure MH and the results were not nearly as good as HPS. Yet, when I doubled the watts/sq ft on a MH bloom test (from 50 watts/sq ft to 100 watts/sq ft), the results were quite good. I have come to believe that the main benefit of HPS is pure brightness. I mean, that's what that light does better than anything else...makes lumens.

This is not to say that spectrum doesn't play a large role. Before the advent of blue enhanced HPS bulbs, we would run 2 HPS and 1 MH on a Sun Circle light mover for optimal results. Then the Agrosun (and later the Hortilux) bulb was introduced and we could get almost the same results with just HPS. Obviously, with more layout options. In a perfect world, I'd still add a little MH in with my blue enhanced Digilux HPS bulbs. The problem is that it's just not practical.

I agree with many of you that LED and/or induction lighting may be a better choice for closet grows. Especially if the grow is comprised of small plants in high density. I would very much like to see a 400 watt induction light over a 2' x 3' tray containing around 30 - 12" un-topped plants. I could see that tray yielding 12 ozs or so...very respectable. If you were to extrapulate that to a 4x4 tray it would be 2lbs. The problem (as I mentioned in a prior post) is plant count. If you used the same light and tray, but with just 4-5 plants, I'm certain the yield would be a fraction of what could be done with the higher density. With a 600 watt HPS and 4-5 plants in the 2x3 tray, your yield would certainly be far greater that the induction light and 4-5 plants.

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it! Be good, ya'all.
Click to expand...
*working together solves more problems.. imo

.2s
 
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