STAY AWAY FROM LED's!!!!!

Corbat420 said:

i've been thinking the same thing. if i have any hope at all it will be with this light right here: http://bcledlights.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=224 800 Watt, 160x 5W LED panel.

i still have a feeling that it wont be quite as good as HPS for flowering, but it might just do the trick...... i know for a FACT that these new LED's are going to blow everything else away when it comes to Vegetative growth. if it has the penetration power of a 1000 Watt light then nothing will touch this thing...... but i dont have $2000 to spend on one light

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Corbat,
Thanks for adding something positive to this thread. I thought this thing had gone the way of so many others. Good show, all you guys for pulling this fucker out of the muck.

This light you linked looks promising. Of course, there have been others that I have gotten exited about, only to end up dissappointed. The real test for this thing will be whether it can do the job of a 1000HPS or a 600 HPS. If it could replace a 1000 with no loss of bud size, density, and quality, I would have no problem shelling out $24,000 to replace my 12 - 1000 watt HPS's in my bloom room. I'd estimate around a $500 reduction in my electricity bill for lights alone. Then another $200-$300 in A/C electricity. Add in $100/month in bulb savings and we get at least an $800/month savings. 2.5 years and they've paid for themselves. Even if I put them on my grow op's line of credit, with interest and everything they would have us even in under 3 years. The immediate savings on the power bill covers my interest payment plus a hefty chunk towards the principal. Some of you had mentioned that the only reason all growers don't use LED's is because of the high cost. The truth is, IF they can make one that out performs 1000 watt HPS's, cost is not an issue. I hope my figures layed out above show that clearly.

Now we just nead to sit back and wait for some ops to try these things out. Given the history of broken promises from LED makers, I don't want to be the first commercial sized op to test these things. So many of these lights have looked so good on paper...yet their actual grow op performance has been dissappointing to say the least. For me to get an accurate guage on how well they work, I would have to purchase 4 of them. My bloom room is settup with 3 - 8x8 trays lit by 4 - 1000 watt lights. Because of lighting spillover, and the fact that I measure yield based on what 1 tray produces, 4 lights would be needed for an accurate assessment of their performance.

So, for now I'll just keep my eye out for grows using these guys. When and if I see some HID size/dense buds coming from these lights, I'll happily purchase 4 of them for a test of my own.

I believe that there is a high possibility that they will work well, but only well enough to replace a 600 watt HPS light. Unfortunately, this negates any direct lighting electrical savings, the bulk of the economic benefits of changing lighting. If this proves to be the case, I could not jusify the initial expense of the lights. It would just take WAY too long te realize the savings based soley on A/C energy savings and bulb replacement savings.

So, as they start showing up in grows, let me know. I'm really hoping they can do the job.

Im in the Uk and electric suppliers have just put there prices up on average by 19%!! its a real killer , the 4x600w hps i run cost me £320/month with all the ventalation gear and fans running , luckily my ac unit is powering my work area + flower room, otherwise i could also add that on , i have solar panels on Order , they are fitted and supplied free here in the uk , as long your roof is pointing sw-se, so i am hoping to bring this down 1/4 on my monthly bill , if i could swap my 600hps for 4 x led panels, i would hardly notice the extra at all but 8000 us dollars is out of my budget for now,(the company are offering no discount at all under 10 units!), do not get me wrong i would find the money for them if the hard facts were there , mainly , no loss in bud density, which was my problem on previous trials, it's not even as though i could just try 1 panel as mixed with the other hps it would show no kind of accurate results, i to am locked into seeing and waiting what comes with future LED development or some hard evidence on the current ones available...

i may be wrong but i look at the top of the line leds like flat screen tv's...i just got my first flat screen 6 years ago..it was 1500$ at the time..that same tv was 5000$ 3 years before i bought it..it is now 500$...in due time the price will come down and i will buy some

Thank you, this thread is a great source of knowledge. I agree about the cost of the LED's not being a real issue IF they can replace 1000w HPS. I have done the math and the energy/bulb replacement savings more than makes up for the additional cost, not to mention the labor savings. Honestly I have stopped growing indoors and risk mother nature to grow solely outdoors, only cloning/veging indoors, due to the hassle. I miss growing indoors, especially when weather, bugs or animals cause real damage to my plants. It is nice to have a few locked up safe and sound!

Happy growing!

.i just got my first flat screen 6 years ago..it was 1500$

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my family bought a 58" Flat screen TV in 1986..... you know, those GIANT things in teh black wooden case..... $4800.... IN 1986!!!!!!

i figure next year or a year from now the price of LED lights will be 1/2 the price of what it is now....

i found this write up on led's a good read , see watcha think , click on link and goto uk issue 4. http://www.softsecrets.nl/?id=47&title=Issues

I'll let you guys know how my LED grow goes.

1 100watt Blackstar LED
1 180 Watt Blackstar LED

4 "The Purps"

Clonex said:

Im in the Uk and electric suppliers have just put there prices up on average by 19%!! its a real killer , the 4x600w hps i run cost me £320/month with all the ventalation gear and fans running , luckily my ac unit is powering my work area + flower room, otherwise i could also add that on , i have solar panels on Order , they are fitted and supplied free here in the uk , as long your roof is pointing sw-se, so i am hoping to bring this down 1/4 on my monthly bill , if i could swap my 600hps for 4 x led panels, i would hardly notice the extra at all but 8000 us dollars is out of my budget for now,(the company are offering no discount at all under 10 units!), do not get me wrong i would find the money for them if the hard facts were there , mainly , no loss in bud density, which was my problem on previous trials, it's not even as though i could just try 1 panel as mixed with the other hps it would show no kind of accurate results, i to am locked into seeing and waiting what comes with future LED development or some hard evidence on the current ones available...

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Clonex,

I feel your pain in knowing the only accurate way to test new LED's is to have enough of them. Mixing new LED's with HID's may be great, but how would we know what the LED's are bringing to the party. I have to say, the lights Corbat linked have got me thinking the technology might be there. I think the LED makers finally realized that to be effective, they're going to have to draw some power. Originally, they tried to make us think that they could give us real performance for 20-30% of the energy draw. I guess on paper it may have worked that way. They sold alot of units to people who bought into that theory. I've noticed that the LED wattages have been steadily climbing, and their claims of what a watt can do has been steadily dropping. This turn towards a more honest approach to the potential of the technology makes me feel more confident that a commercial LED grow could soon be a real possibility. When they used to claim that a 90 watt LED could match a 400HPS, they were the laughing stock of every commercial grower coast to coast. I hope the LED industry continues this shift towards a more realistic assesment of what their lights can be expected to do.

First off, I have never grown. I signed up here on RIU, literally the day after I smoked my first bowl. I've been reading and learning, waiting until I can start my own grow.

collective gardener said:

Clonex,

I hope the LED industry continues this shift towards a more realistic assesment of what their lights can be expected to do.

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Let's hope we see some results soon. What I really want, is a side by side test. Two rooms right next to each other, all plants would be clones taken from the same mother at the same time, preferably hydro and both room share the same res, same temps, etc. As identical as can be, except for the lights. One side HPS, the other LED (why not test CFLs at the same time!). They should record daily growth, nutrient depletion in the res, overall plant health, root health, wet weight, dry weight, etc. Perhaps run the test 3 times to get an average. It would be expensive, but it would be very informative to see all the data.

Slightly off topic:
I don't know if anybody here has seen the ProSource LED video on YouTube, but it pisses me off. Somebody here on RIU linked to it, like it was a good demo of LED grow tech. In reality, it's a 9 minute infomercial produced by the company. They try to make it sort of seem like it's just a guy who had good results and wants to share, but I highly doubt that. After watching the video, I left a comment about my idea for a test. It needed to be approved by the user... lo and behold, it's not approved. The vid has been up for 4 months, with 6,800 views but only has 11 comments? Considering how many people are interested in the tech, it should have a couple more comments I would think. Also, like and dislikes are disabled. That shit pisses me off to no end. It's a company preying on the gullible and inexperienced, and not even willing to take any sort of criticism. Fuck that shit.

NewGrowth said:

LED's are bad for your eyes and Plants :: I'm more interested in new HID technology. Ceramic metal halide, plasma discharge ect.

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Awesome scientific data backing up your hypothesis. When people make comments like this......nobody wins.

MrVanker said:

First off, I have never grown. I signed up here on RIU, literally the day after I smoked my first bowl. I've been reading and learning, waiting until I can start my own grow.




Let's hope we see some results soon. What I really want, is a side by side test. Two rooms right next to each other, all plants would be clones taken from the same mother at the same time, preferably hydro and both room share the same res, same temps, etc. As identical as can be, except for the lights. One side HPS, the other LED (why not test CFLs at the same time!). They should record daily growth, nutrient depletion in the res, overall plant health, root health, wet weight, dry weight, etc. Perhaps run the test 3 times to get an average. It would be expensive, but it would be very informative to see all the data.

Slightly off topic:
I don't know if anybody here has seen the ProSource LED video on YouTube, but it pisses me off. Somebody here on RIU linked to it, like it was a good demo of LED grow tech. In reality, it's a 9 minute infomercial produced by the company. They try to make it sort of seem like it's just a guy who had good results and wants to share, but I highly doubt that. After watching the video, I left a comment about my idea for a test. It needed to be approved by the user... lo and behold, it's not approved. The vid has been up for 4 months, with 6,800 views but only has 11 comments? Considering how many people are interested in the tech, it should have a couple more comments I would think. Also, like and dislikes are disabled. That shit pisses me off to no end. It's a company preying on the gullible and inexperienced, and not even willing to take any sort of criticism. Fuck that shit.

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There HAVE been those kind of grow journals. If you researched....you would find them. I promise.

I'll give it a go and see what I find. I would hope that if there were any such journals with reliable info, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I did see one journal a while back, with the inductive fluros, but it also seemed to be run by the company. Every other post was telling people about how great the company was, how they have done the research, have great customer service, x day warranties, etc. It seemed to fake. I could be wrong though, it's happened before!

MrVanker said:

I'll give it a go and see what I find. I would hope that if there were any such journals with reliable info, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I did see one journal a while back, with the inductive fluros, but it also seemed to be run by the company. Every other post was telling people about how great the company was, how they have done the research, have great customer service, x day warranties, etc. It seemed to fake. I could be wrong though, it's happened before!

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The speculation behind LED's derives from people like the person who started this thread. The guy who thought his 2 hours of research and his "bargain hunter" attitude could equal a cost-free, electricity-free, magic grow light. The science behind LED's prove that they can work. And as collectivegardener said, their claims are finally getting to be more and more realistic. Once people started to understand that you actually DO get what you pay for, and they started to invest in the quality lights, you started seeing journals pop up, with people getting some truly great results using LED's.

Simply put, LED's aren't going to blow any HID light out of the water. But for a fraction of the HID electricity, a fraction of the heat, and a more healthy spectrum delivered to the plant, LED's definitely have a place in indoor gardening. To say EVERYONE needs to go buy an LED RIGHT NOW is preposterous, but they WILL produce results when the right light is bought; assuming the grower knows how to grow cannabis.

EDIT - There are a few journals that I came across that seemed to be that company's employee/owner trying to plug his product, but there are some good, un-bias growers right here on RIU that have used LED's for a while now.

Just want to add. If you bought a 20 dollar LED panel off eBay and it didn't work.......don't respond with "I USED LEDS AND THEY SUCK". You need to research a LOT more, go buy a proper light, develop some kind of input valuable to the conversation, THEN make your comment. This thread should be like 2 pages long right now -.-

I completely agree with you Virulent. I don't doubt that there are LEDs that work, and are based on real science. But as with any product, people are always trying to make a buck so they make a very poor imitation. My opinion on lights is this: If it is the best solution for you, go for it.

I don't doubt that HIDs outperform CFLs or LEDs when used on the same scale. But I plan on running a PC grow, so it simply is not possible to use any type of HID. If I tried, odds are I would burn up my plants. Which tells me that CFLs outperform HIDs for my individual needs. Likewise, I have no issue with anybody using LEDs (unless they are like the OP). I have even been thinking about doing some in depth research and building my own panel. I don't mind spending $60 for a project like that, even if it doesn't work alone, I would use it to augment CFLs. So as I have said from the get-go, I am not against LEDs.

Also, I've been searching for a side by side grow, and haven't found any here on RIU. Perhaps I'm not using the right search terms. I do want to read what is out there, but I don't think I'll find what I described. I love grow journals, they are the reason I am here at RIU. But for the experiment I described, I want numbers, observations and photos. When we have that kind of empirical data, then we will see what LEDs can do, and how they can be improved. That applies to all aspects of growing.

MrVanker said:

I completely agree with you Virulent. I don't doubt that there are LEDs that work, and are based on real science. But as with any product, people are always trying to make a buck so they make a very poor imitation. My opinion on lights is this: If it is the best solution for you, go for it.

I don't doubt that HIDs outperform CFLs or LEDs when used on the same scale. But I plan on running a PC grow, so it simply is not possible to use any type of HID. If I tried, odds are I would burn up my plants. Which tells me that CFLs outperform HIDs for my individual needs. Likewise, I have no issue with anybody using LEDs (unless they are like the OP). I have even been thinking about doing some in depth research and building my own panel. I don't mind spending $60 for a project like that, even if it doesn't work alone, I would use it to augment CFLs. So as I have said from the get-go, I am not against LEDs.

Also, I've been searching for a side by side grow, and haven't found any here on RIU. Perhaps I'm not using the right search terms. I do want to read what is out there, but I don't think I'll find what I described. I love grow journals, they are the reason I am here at RIU. But for the experiment I described, I want numbers, observations and photos. When we have that kind of empirical data, then we will see what LEDs can do, and how they can be improved. That applies to all aspects of growing.

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https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/464828-diy-l-e-d-grow.html <--That's an interesting read I thought. Not too sure how well it's going to work out but intriguing nonetheless.

I think that with enough research, it is doable. The biggest problem is supplying power to each LED. I am not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to resistors and such, but Wikipedia is a great place to start! Then comes the light spectrums... with a bit of googling, I found a page that shows the spectrums and temps of different LEDs. If I don't find enough reliable info, then I just won't do it, but I'll try. Of course if I am successful, I will share the parts and schematics.

When you give it a shot please let me know how it went! I studied electronics briefly while I was in the Air Force, enough to know it's definitely do-able if you have the right information, and are good at soldering. With some testing, and trial and error, I think you could get something put together that could really help your grow out, and possibly, someday even power a grow on its' own.

virulient said:

Awesome scientific data backing up your hypothesis. You're an idiot.

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Was the "idiot" comment really necessary? I dissagree with the post, as well. But it's comments like these that take the thread down a negative road. Rise above that shit, brother.

Damn you ritalin! lol Now that I'm thinking about it, I can't stop! I really need to go to bed, I have to be up in about 3.5 hours to take my niece and nephew to school!

Anyhoo, I've found some seemingly good info at this GrassCity thread *see Sardoth and 2lsc's posts*. Well, I don't know that it's good, but they certainly sound confident! I think it's a good start anyway.

Just to get an idea on cost, I started looking up LEDs in the nm ranges they mention. I am starting to see why some of the LED setups are so expensive. The only website that I really trust for good LEDs is Mouser, and they are all $2-$6 a piece! Luckily, when build the light, it will most likely be for a micro grow, so I'm thinking 10-15Lx4-6w.

EDIT: I almost forgot, regarding the idiot comment... I don't know that it was necessary, but what we may not have thought about (I didn't), is that the Blue LEDs supply not only the higher nm spectrums, but also the UV. While it isn't a huge concern with CFLs, or other fuller spectrum lights, with LEDs I think it is. Because the LED is putting out smaller more specific ranges of light, the UV is more of a danger. I'm not sure that it is enough to damage your eyes in the short term, I imagine you could get a bit of tan being under them.