The Ideal spectrum.

nachooo

nachooo

Well-Known Member
ChiefRunningPhist said:
Lol what's up man, well first off I really don't know at all and definitely could be wrong, but imo (only opinion) It seems there's at least a slight predisposition towards slight chlorosis and symptoms that somewhat resemble Mo (or kinda like Mg) def. Blotchy leaves, stunted growth. Sometimes showing symptoms of slight Ca & K def. I fly through veg, but during bloom its a roll of the dice whether or not they exhibit symptoms. When I switched from HPS to LED I noticed a different type of growth, smaller buds, but more of them, shorter internodal distance, reduced stretching, ect, amoung other morphological differences. I think that SPD plays a big role in how a plant grows. The sun grows a plant differently than a T5, compared to a MH, compared to a HPS, ect.. They all provide photons, but the plant responds differently according to what type of photons it gets. I keep my RH at 50% but have grown the plant outdoors plenty, and in a drier natural climate than a constant 50% RH. I could just be a shit indoor grower lol, but I didn't really have these issues with HPS. I'm certain the SPDs differ in comparison, but aside from that I'm not really certain of anything. Also, it seems more LED guys jump on here with "Ca/Mg" issues, but maybe it's due to LEDs appealing to newbs more than HID does, idk? I've used GH 3part and Maxi series for RDWC and coco flood table recirc systems. Max 83F, pH held at 5.85, water temp 69, ppm max of 800.

This is what I use as a guide, but on my next round will start to swing the pH rather than keep it constant...
View attachment 4392635

EDIT:
What lights do you use? Nutes? Your plants always look really good and seem to have more reds and autumn colors than I get.
Click to expand...
The evil problem....

IMG_20190422_231545.jpg

Always in veg, IMHO not related to cal-mag defficiencies...I solved it always quickly raising temps and maintaining a correct VPD... This problem I think is caused by the lack of infrarred radiation in leds...so leaf temps are not adecuate..the problem stop when I raise temps...that also occurs always in my case in flower as the leds at full wattage heat more the canopy...
Have been seeing this a lot.... This is only my opinion...in other threat we talked about it with Randomblame and his thoughts were similar to mine
 
nachooo

nachooo

Well-Known Member
ChiefRunningPhist said:
Phototropin & Zeitlupes absorbance spectra.

Crytopchrome absorbance spectra.

The LED in the background is an LM301H CRI80 3500K for reference.
Click to expand...
After seeing all these nices curves...Seems most of us are lacking light in the Violet zone.... and also infrarred. I am assuming Far red, UVA and UVB are easily added using exotic leds or fluorescent tubes...
 
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ChiefRunningPhist

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Dammit!

Lol I had a row misaligned. If you add up the %'s they are not equal to 100%. I've fixed it but now that so much time has gone by I can't edit them. If you noticed this, you receive a gold star :bigjoint:
 
lukio

lukio

Well-Known Member
ChiefRunningPhist said:
a slight predisposition towards slight chlorosis and symptoms that somewhat resemble Mo (or kinda like Mg) def. Blotchy leaves, stunted growth. Sometimes showing symptoms of slight Ca & K def. I fly through veg, but during bloom its a roll of the dice whether or not they exhibit symptoms.
Click to expand...
yo! hmmm, mannnn, i dunno what to say! you seem to have everything where i'd have it...lol! in flower im about 7-800 umol and i let my PH drift a bit (i'm lazy)

ChiefRunningPhist said:
What lights do you use? Nutes? Your plants always look really good.
Click to expand...
A posh camera helps! I run Canna Coco, RO water and MegaCrop. My food profile is currently

N 112
P 33
K 170
Mg 95
Ca 100
S 23

at around 0.8 - 0.9 ec. never any higher really

whats yours?

ive also had success with the Canna Coco food range. im thinking about running some again this round cause i found loads under the stairs...

ChiefRunningPhist said:
Also, it seems more LED guys jump on here with "Ca/Mg
Click to expand...
personally i think thats cause a lot of nutrient companies sell Ca/Mg separately or its a coco issue.

Ive never run just HPS so its difficult to compare for me.

ChiefRunningPhist said:
The sun grows a plant differently than a T5, compared to a MH, compared to a HPS, ect.. They all provide photons, but the plant responds differently according to what type of photons it gets
Click to expand...
yeah my mate grows all of my cuts under hps and they look different. I prefer my led grown to his and he ends up with mine as personal stash quite a lot, lol! I'll ask him what EC he's at as he's also in coco on MegaCrop.
 
lukio

lukio

Well-Known Member
nachooo said:
The evil problem....

View attachment 4392676

Always in veg, IMHO not related to cal-mag defficiencies...I solved it always quickly raising temps and maintaining a correct VPD... This problem I think is caused by the lack of infrarred radiation in leds...so leaf temps are not adecuate..the problem stop when I raise temps...that also occurs always in my case in flower as the leds at full wattage heat more the canopy...
Have been seeing this a lot.... This is only my opinion...in other threat we talked about it with Randomblame and his thoughts were similar to mine
Click to expand...
that does looks odd! what are you feeding, dude? im also a believer in warmer temps because of the lack of IR
 
nachooo

nachooo

Well-Known Member
lukio said:
that does looks odd! what are you feeding, dude? im also a believer in warmer temps because of the lack of IR
Click to expand...
It doesnt matter the nutes ...In this case i was using megacrop..but it happens me before with dynagro...is not the nutes...is some kind of lock out due to transpiration issues...that is related to leaf temps... I solved this not changing the nutes even a ppm...only raising temps and rh accordingly.
 
nachooo

nachooo

Well-Known Member
For me..the problem always happens mainly in upper leaves...And usually not in low light conditions.. it start in veg mode at some point...is like if I up light intensity and the vpd is not correct..it appears... I think that...is nutrient related in some way...but not directly.. I mean...Not in a sense that you are not providing correct nutes...is some kind of lock out... Maybe the coco coir and its ph requirements agravates the problem.... I become mad fighting this until found that heat and rh solve that... at least in my case.
 
ChiefRunningPhist

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
lukio said:
yo! hmmm, mannnn, i dunno what to say! you seem to have everything where i'd have it...lol! in flower im about 7-800 umol and i let my PH drift a bit (i'm lazy)



A posh camera helps! I run Canna Coco, RO water and MegaCrop. My food profile is currently

N 112
P 33
K 170
Mg 95
Ca 100
S 23

at around 0.8 - 0.9 ec. never any higher really

whats yours?

ive also had success with the Canna Coco food range. im thinking about running some again this round cause i found loads under the stairs...


personally i think thats cause a lot of nutrient companies sell Ca/Mg separately or its a coco issue.

Ive never run just HPS so its difficult to compare for me.


yeah my mate grows all of my cuts under hps and they look different. I prefer my led grown to his and he ends up with mine as personal stash quite a lot, lol! I'll ask him what EC he's at as he's also in coco on MegaCrop.
Click to expand...
I use ppms, maxi and... ...tap, lol. I'm really trying to avoid RO, but may be to that point. I've not calculated the ion ratios, but Maxi is labeled as a 5-15-14. I begin my most consistent procedure with tap water around 230ppm, then I add pH down first before anything else (most ppl use last) trying to neutralize some carbonates that may precipitate some of the other nutes out. The ppms drop after initial acid addition to about 200ish. I mix in 5gal buckets. After acid I add Si, stir, then possibly Ca-Mg if I'm Ca def (rare with high ppm tap) and possibly add Epsom if I'm needing Mg (maxi has it and so does my tap, but still need sometimes more than others), then I add the maxi powder, up to 550-750ppm then Ill top off with a bit of floralicious+, bumps it up another ~25-50ppm or so. Then I let the salts dissolve for a min (mainly MgSO4 portion of Maxi) while I go watch a show or something, then come back stir, do a final ppm and pH probe, then finally pump into the system.

Im thinking that C likes more of the K than P, and that the high P value in Maxi and most MKP containing PK boosters is messing with my plants. I've been playing around with using Maxi as my base but then amending with K2SO4 along with ZnSO4 & MnSO4 (much less). I've heard S being a much needed ingredient for C and not trying to mess with other nute ratios when supplementing, so I really try to use sulphates over phosphates or nitrates when supplementing.

I like your breakdown, seeing a much lower P is more what I'm after. I just didn't know how much more K than P. After seeing your plants and looking at your recipe I think I'm going to be adding a lot more K2SO4 to the maxi. I added K2SO4 at the tail end of last round and it seemed to help, but it was hard to really pinpoint that as the sole reason.

@nachooo I think VPD is important too. What RH and temp do you grow at? I'm ~50RH and 78-83F (26C-28C). When I added the K2SO4 the plants started to respond, but they were also getting a boost in RH too (jumped to 50% from around 37%-40% initially), so not sure which one helped or if they both helped.
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
nachooo said:
The evil problem....

View attachment 4392676

Always in veg, IMHO not related to cal-mag defficiencies...I solved it always quickly raising temps and maintaining a correct VPD... This problem I think is caused by the lack of infrarred radiation in leds...so leaf temps are not adecuate..the problem stop when I raise temps...that also occurs always in my case in flower as the leds at full wattage heat more the canopy...
Have been seeing this a lot.... This is only my opinion...in other threat we talked about it with Randomblame and his thoughts were similar to mine
Click to expand...
Had similar issues myself , not new to flowering with LED but only fairly recently started vegging with them and in a limited height tent.
VPD helped a lot, but reducing DLI made a huge improvement too. Now im vegging 16/8 instead of 18/6 or 20/4
I can only dim so much and cant raise lights more than they are already.
 
nachooo

nachooo

Well-Known Member
ChiefRunningPhist said:
I use ppms, maxi and... ...tap, lol. I'm really trying to avoid RO, but may be to that point. I've not calculated the ion ratios, but Maxi is labeled as a 5-15-14. I begin my most consistent procedure with tap water around 230ppm, then I add pH down first before anything else (most ppl use last) trying to neutralize some carbonates that may precipitate some of the other nutes out. The ppms drop after initial acid addition to about 200ish. I mix in 5gal buckets. After acid I add Si, stir, then possibly Ca-Mg if I'm Ca def (rare with high ppm tap) and possibly add Epsom if I'm needing Mg (maxi has it and so does my tap, but still need sometimes more than others), then I add the maxi powder, up to 550-750ppm then Ill top off with a bit of floralicious+, bumps it up another ~25-50ppm or so. Then I let the salts dissolve for a min (mainly MgSO4 portion of Maxi) while I go watch a show or something, then come back stir, do a final ppm and pH probe, then finally pump into the system.

Im thinking that C likes more of the K than P, and that the high P value in Maxi and most MKP containing PK boosters is messing with my plants. I've been playing around with using Maxi as my base but then amending with K2SO4 along with ZnSO4 & MnSO4 (much less). I've heard S being a much needed ingredient for C and not trying to mess with other nute ratios when supplementing, so I really try to use sulphates over phosphates or nitrates when supplementing.

I like your breakdown, seeing a much lower P is more what I'm after. I just didn't know how much more K than P. After seeing your plants and looking at your recipe I think I'm going to be adding a lot more K2SO4 to the maxi. I added K2SO4 at the tail end of last round and it seemed to help, but it was hard to really pinpoint that as the sole reason.

@nachooo I think VPD is important too. What RH and temp do you grow at? I'm ~50RH and 78-83F (26C-28C). When I added the K2SO4 the plants started to respond, but they were also getting a boost in RH too (jumped to 50% from around 37%-40% initially), so not sure which one helped or if they both helped.
Click to expand...
I live in a place where climate is something crazy.... but usually humidity is quite low about 40% or similar if is not rainy.. I have to add water with ultrasonic piezielectric device at least until a decent canopy cover the tent... In veg I like to be in the 65-70% range ...in flower from 65 to 55% at the end... Seems that this kind of clorosis?? affects more my pure sativa and dominant sativa plants...with of course like humidity more than my indicas...
 
nachooo

nachooo

Well-Known Member
coreywebster said:
Had similar issues myself , not new to flowering with LED but only fairly recently started vegging with them and in a limited height tent.
VPD helped a lot, but reducing DLI made a huge improvement too. Now im vegging 16/8 instead of 18/6 or 20/4
I can only dim so much and cant raise lights more than they are already.
Click to expand...
Yes!!! as I said before...it start at a moment that light get some intensity or (DLI)...is like plant is getting suddenly much light than expected...and these ...affects transpiration...nute absortion...and can be solved with correct vpd...that maybe acelerate metabolism and this way , plant use that excess of light...? and also raising lights or lowering dli..... to reduce the problem or maybe with infrarreds that raise stomatal activitiy and also metabolism...Probably adding Co2 helps also
 
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captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
The plant seems to slow way down and the plants colors have more of a flat appearance and fade, loses it's shine. For me it starts at the top and works down but if you dial back the light the plant recovers pretty quick, reminds me of the look a plant can get when root bound. It may be more than just intensity and come down to spectral balance.
 
nachooo

nachooo

Well-Known Member
captainmorgan said:
The plant seems to slow way down and the plants colors have more of a flat appearance and fade, loses it's shine. For me it starts at the top and works down but if you dial back the light the plant recovers pretty quick, reminds me of the look a plant can get when root bound. It may be more than just intensity and come down to spectral balance.
Click to expand...
Yes..it starts in the top...In my mothers tent...there are some old leds at low intensity..but if some shoots grow tall ..the ones that are reaching the light and getting more intensity are the first affected.. little plants and clones at the bottom are not affected
 
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captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
I lean towards something out of balance in the spectrum, outdoor vegging plants take in much more intensity but may get less hours but I think the overall DLI is more outside and I don't recall seeing the look in any plants outside.
 
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