The riddle of the gun; looking at both sides of the gun debate

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
This article brings up some of the best points I heard for both sides of the debate.

Excellent points for stricter guns laws and for armed citizens.

The Riddle of the Gun

Here's some of my favorite excerpts;

"Most of my friends do not own guns and never will. When asked to consider the possibility of keeping firearms for protection, they worry that the mere presence of them in their homes would put themselves and their families in danger. Can’t a gun go off by accident? Wouldn’t it be more likely to be used against them in an altercation with a criminal? I am surrounded by otherwise intelligent people who imagine that the ability to dial 911 is all the protection against violence a sane person ever needs."

"Of course, owning a gun is not a responsibility that everyone should assume. Most guns kept in the home will never be used for self-defense. They are, in fact, more likely to be used by an unstable person to threaten family members or to commit suicide. However, it seems to me that there is nothing irrational about judging oneself to be psychologically stable and fully committed to the safe handling and ethical use of firearms—if, indeed, one is."

"
Of course, it is important to think about the problem of gun violence in the context of other risks. For instance, it is estimated that 100,000 Americans die each year because doctors and nurses fail to wash their hands properly. Measured in bodies, therefore, the problem of hand washing in hospitals is worse than the problem of guns, even if we include accidents and suicides. But not all deaths are equivalent. A narrow focus on mortality rates does not always do justice to the reality of human suffering. Mass shootings are a marginal concern, even relative to other forms of gun violence, but they cause an unusual degree of terror and grief—particularly when children are targeted. Given the psychological and social costs of certain low-frequency events, it does not seem irrational to allocate disproportionate resources to prevent them."

"
Even if the Second Amendment guaranteed everyone the right to possess whatever weapon he or she desired (it doesn’t), we have since invented weapons that no civilian should be allowed to own. In fact, it can be easily argued that original intent of the Second Amendment had nothing to do with the right of self-defense—which remains the ethical case to be made for owning a firearm. The amendment seems to have been written to allow the states to check the power of the federal government by maintaining their militias. Given the changes that have occurred in our military, and even in our politics, the idea that a few pistols and an AR 15 in every home constitutes a necessary bulwark against totalitarianism is fairly ridiculous. If you believe that the armed forces of the United States might one day come for you—and you think your cache of small arms will suffice to defend you if they do—I’ve got a black helicopter to sell you."
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
This article brings up some of the best points I heard for both sides of the debate.

Excellent points for stricter guns laws and for armed citizens.

The Riddle of the Gun

Here's some of my favorite excerpts;

"Most of my friends do not own guns and never will. When asked to consider the possibility of keeping firearms for protection, they worry that the mere presence of them in their homes would put themselves and their families in danger. Can’t a gun go off by accident? Wouldn’t it be more likely to be used against them in an altercation with a criminal? I am surrounded by otherwise intelligent people who imagine that the ability to dial 911 is all the protection against violence a sane person ever needs."

"Of course, owning a gun is not a responsibility that everyone should assume. Most guns kept in the home will never be used for self-defense. They are, in fact, more likely to be used by an unstable person to threaten family members or to commit suicide. However, it seems to me that there is nothing irrational about judging oneself to be psychologically stable and fully committed to the safe handling and ethical use of firearms—if, indeed, one is."

"
Of course, it is important to think about the problem of gun violence in the context of other risks. For instance, it is estimated that 100,000 Americans die each year because doctors and nurses fail to wash their hands properly. Measured in bodies, therefore, the problem of hand washing in hospitals is worse than the problem of guns, even if we include accidents and suicides. But not all deaths are equivalent. A narrow focus on mortality rates does not always do justice to the reality of human suffering. Mass shootings are a marginal concern, even relative to other forms of gun violence, but they cause an unusual degree of terror and grief—particularly when children are targeted. Given the psychological and social costs of certain low-frequency events, it does not seem irrational to allocate disproportionate resources to prevent them."

"
Even if the Second Amendment guaranteed everyone the right to possess whatever weapon he or she desired (it doesn’t), we have since invented weapons that no civilian should be allowed to own. In fact, it can be easily argued that original intent of the Second Amendment had nothing to do with the right of self-defense—which remains the ethical case to be made for owning a firearm. The amendment seems to have been written to allow the states to check the power of the federal government by maintaining their militias. Given the changes that have occurred in our military, and even in our politics, the idea that a few pistols and an AR 15 in every home constitutes a necessary bulwark against totalitarianism is fairly ridiculous. If you believe that the armed forces of the United States might one day come for you—and you think your cache of small arms will suffice to defend you if they do—I’ve got a black helicopter to sell you."
Pretty good article.

<edit> I don't agree with a fair portion of it, but it is better than the average hand-wringing liberal talking about plastic guns sort of typing.
 

Kervork

Well-Known Member
I think the US government would be pretty much powerless against an armed insurrection by 50 million people.

A governments power is not blowing people up, it is extorting taxes out of them. Syria will fall, not because the rebels are well armed but because the conflict has bankrupted the government.

A sea of weapons means the government forces are not safe anywhere, hence the costs of security go through the roof while tax revenues go through the floor.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
I think the US government would be pretty much powerless against an armed insurrection by 50 million people.

A governments power is not blowing people up, it is extorting taxes out of them. Syria will fall, not because the rebels are well armed but because the conflict has bankrupted the government.

A sea of weapons means the government forces are not safe anywhere, hence the costs of security go through the roof while tax revenues go through the floor.
The US Military could annihilate 50 million people in the blink of an eye.
 

racerboy71

bud bootlegger
The US Military could annihilate 50 million people in the blink of an eye.
that is if you could get the us military to turn it's own weapon's on their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters.. i like to think that they couldn't / wouldn't.. not our gvt per se, but the actual soldiers pulling the triggers rather..
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
that is if you could get the us military to turn it's own weapon's on their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters.. i like to think that they couldn't / wouldn't.. not our gvt per se, but the actual soldiers pulling the triggers rather..
When someone in an authoritative position tells you to do something, most people don't question it, they just do it.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
300 year old laws need updating.

Accepting archaic laws as reasonable in today's world makes as much sense as removing all guns from society and expecting violence to drop.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
300 year old laws need updating.

Accepting archaic laws as reasonable in today's world makes as much sense as removing all guns from society and expecting violence to drop.
Explain to me what is archaic about insisting on having an equalizer ... not in the Western sense but as a brake on unfettered government. If you read not just the Constitution but the contemporaneous writings of the drafters, you will see that this is what the Second, and at its root the gun control debate, are all about. Not guns but control. My opinion. cn
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
300 year old laws need updating.

Accepting archaic laws as reasonable in today's world makes as much sense as removing all guns from society and expecting violence to drop.
I can agree with you on this.

I am a 2A supporter, but I can accept that many citizens think it needs to be revoked. I am on board. Go ahead and amend the constitution to revoke 2A and I will grumpily abide, while invoking my 1A freedom to point out that it is foolish to do away with 2A.

At the constitutional convention that you convene, I would also like to rewrite the commerce clause to say that the federal government has the authority and power to regulate interstate commerce so as to prevent trade wars between individual states, but the federal government has absolutely no authority to oversee or regulate any commerce within an individual state regardless of how that intrastate commerce might affect interstate commerce. As a competing amendment to the 2A revocation amendment, I also want to put forth a revised second amendment that says: "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The ability of a free people to resist tyranny, even by force of arms, is guaranteed without exception. The people shall have free access to military grade weapons equal in power and capability to the arms used by civilian police forces, and state military forces." I am sure there are other constitutional enhancements I can think of.

What I will not tolerate is for the federal, state, or local governments to pretend that 2A does not exist, or to pretend that it does not mean what it says.
 

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
It's almost as if people in the US care about the constitution and living under the rule of law instead of living under the changing whims of manipulative politicians.
it's almost as if people feel the need to be "right" all the time. they feel their point is the only real point so they state it over and over again. i notice everyone is arguing about gun laws. if they really cared about the constitution, they would all be agreeing with each other. ;)
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
that is if you could get the us military to turn it's own weapon's on their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters.. i like to think that they couldn't / wouldn't.. not our gvt per se, but the actual soldiers pulling the triggers rather..

It is uncomfortable to think that it could ever happen, but it is not an impossibility and some would even say it is likely.

I guess you couldn't really apply that logic to the war on drugs and the near one million arrests per year. Many cops privately know that the war on drugs is bogus, but hey they "just do their jobs". So yeah....don't hold your breath on the military or cops doing the right thing...ever.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
it's almost as if people feel the need to be "right" all the time. they feel their point is the only real point so they state it over and over again. i notice everyone is arguing about gun laws. if they really cared about the constitution, they would all be agreeing with each other. ;)
Evidently, a fair number of people feel the need to be "wrong" all the time.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
300 year old laws need updating.

Accepting archaic laws as reasonable in today's world makes as much sense as removing all guns from society and expecting violence to drop.
The concept that people have the natural right to defend themselves is timeless. Passing laws for something or against it does not necessarily mean the laws will be abided by. Passing a law to remove all guns will be as effective as making pot illegal.
 
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