Top bin COB comparison

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wietefras

Well-Known Member
I do believe reflector losses will be lower than wall losses because the reflector has more opportunities to redirect scattered photons in the right direction, but I have not done any tests to explore that specifically. In addition to reflectors, I use reflective walls wherever possible, as long as it does not interfere with airflow .
OK, let me break it down how a lot less light hits the walls as opposed to reflectors.

The thing is that the light that is not hitting the reflectors would never have hit the wall either or it will hit the wall even when reflectors are added. So for this portion of light there is no difference between having reflectors or not.

Now the light that does hit the reflector might or might not hit the wall. Even if all of it would also hit the walls you would have the same amount of light hitting the wall as would have hit the reflectors. So the losses would also be the same.

In reality though, not all of the light that hits the reflectors would hit the wall if you remove the reflector. Light from cobs not near a wall or the sides of the cob not facing a wall would just go to the plants without any reflections. That's a big amount of light not hitting any wall but which would have hit the reflector (and thus incurring losses). The bigger the grow area the bigger this advantage is in favor of the walls.

So walls get a lot less light on them than reflectors do and therefore lose a lot less light overall (if the walls are reflective).

:edit: Added a drawing. Left is the wall (to the right there is no wall near). COB is on top in the middle

White is light that does not hit the reflector and therefore also not the wall
Green is light that would hit both the reflector and the wall
Yellow is the light that hits the reflector yet would not hit a wall (although it should be adjusted for intensity since at 180 degree beam angle there is hardly any light at all)

Walls_vs_Reflector.png
 
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nogod_

Well-Known Member
I was actually being completely serious! Great work don't change a thing!

No offense, but as a noob, that is the exact formula I used for building my first two light bars. Bare cobs and reflective walls in a grow box...and it works really well. The jury is not in yet on my first cob yield (as in dry bud on scales), but from many previous HPS grows the yield is going to be good from these cobs with a fairly uniform 700 umols across the canopy. Simple is good for a noob! :mrgreen:
 

ketchup45685224

Well-Known Member
Even the cheapos will increase efficiency significantly at lower power. You can get generic "100 Watt" COBs for $3-$4 ea. They claim 100lumens/W (30% efficient) in warm white, which I do not doubt they are capable of at moderate power. At low current, maybe 120lm/W (~35% efficient) could be possible.

That said, the Vero 10 is only $4.37 and driven at 20W they are 100lm/W ($0.71/PAR W) and probably much better quality control than generic COBs, which are often partially damaged.

The Vero29 driven at 142W is 111lm/W and cost $0.55/PAR W. From what I can tell the generic COBs cannot compete with the Vero series in terms off efficiency or cost.

Also there are the clearance CREE CXAs that pop up on Newark. For example the CXA2530 2700K T2, driven at 30W, 124lm/W and cost $0.60/PAR W.
I got my bench power supply and did some crude testing of the cheap ebay leds 3500K and a Vero 29 3000K. Not the same color but close. The cheap 100 watt LED driven at 27.9 V @ 700 mA puts out 445 Lux per watt and the Vero 29 driven at 39.8 V @ 2100 mA puts out 507 Lux per watt. Those are the currents to get the value I'm looking for. I'm thinking of 50 cheap LEDs or 10 Vero 29s would replace a 1000 Watt HPS. The cheap LEDs need more drivers but, only need to be mounted to a 6x6 inch piece of 1/8 inch thick aluminium plate to stay cool enough at 700mA (I tested that for hours with no air flow). The Vero 29s need fewer drivers but need real heatsinks when driven at 2100 mA. The value either way might be pretty close.
If the Vero 29 produces 123 Lm/W at 2.1 amp (datasheet), the Cheap LEDs produce 108 Lm/W at 700mA. Better than I thought before testing. These measurements are based off a Cheap Ebay light meter for what it's worth.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
That is good info although taking into consideration lux meters are based on lumens and designed for the human vision curve. Since we cannot see reds/deep reds very well, the lux meter will significantly penalize the 3000K and we have no idea the SPD of the generic LED which might have higher percentages of yellow/green. So the Vero output is potentially even higher than indicated vs the generic in this case.
Vero SPD V2a.jpg
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
@wietefras

What I am saying is that any lateral light scattered by the reflector in the wrong direction (back into the reflector) has a higher chance of being redirected correctly because of the angle of the reflector, as opposed to light that hits the walls and scatters in the wrong direction which has almost no chance of being redirected correctly and the wall probably has a much lower reflectivity as well. Although LED's emission pattern is a huge improvement over 360 degree light sources, quite a bit of light is still emitted laterally
DSC08100b.jpg

I do get what you are saying though, I do not use reflectors or COBs in the center of my canopy but I do have walkways in some tents and large passive air ports that I need to keep light off of. Also, it is a lot easier to keep reflectors clean than it is to keep walls clean so I am a big fan of COB reflectors, especially after playing with the PAR meter, in my tents it does make a significant difference and my best yield was after adding reflectors on the sides.

Recently I built a tent that makes better use of the reflective walls and in that tent I have not added reflectors yet, but if I were running them at 50W ea or higher distance to canopy, I would recommend reflectors to try and keep light off the walls as much as possible.
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
People need to understand what is actually going on and the definition of certain terms. Cobs don't emit in a 120 or 115 angle.
Cobs have no reflectors, and no focusing lenses.

Just like with 98% of optics and lights...half the center beams intensity defines the "spread angle". They don't sit down and pick to have a 115*...just works out that way basically...that is where the light is half the center beam.

Meaning the is not only a little...but a significant amount of light that needs to be wrangled down to your canopy.

That is how it all works.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
@wietefras
What I am saying is that any lateral light scattered by the reflector in the wrong direction (back into the reflector) has a higher chance of being redirected correctly because of the angle of the reflector, as opposed to light that hits the walls and scatters in the wrong direction which has almost no chance of being redirected correctly and the wall probably has a much lower reflectivity as well. Although LED's emission pattern is a huge improvement over 360 degree light sources, quite a bit of light is still emitted laterally
View attachment 3578856
Perhaps, but that's not where the bulk of the light hitting the reflector or wall is. The biggest chunk of light hitting the wall or reflector is between that 90 degree angle of the reflector and something like 150 degrees. Beyond that there is only 5% of the light left. Even if that was sent down slightly better, there is a lot more light in that 90 to 105 bit which doesn't need to hit any reflector.

Shiny surfaces give direct reflections, which is better already, but also much easier to clean.

Still, I guess we understand each other and agree to disagree to some extent :)

People need to understand what is actually going on and the definition of certain terms. Cobs don't emit in a 120 or 115 angle ...
Only 20% of emitted light is outside the 105 degree angle though. Also, as I have shown, most of the light hitting a reflector would never have hit a wall if the reflector wasn't there.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
so on a small gro close cobs to canopy ,
Distance to canopy is determined by light spread. Get them too close and the light will not be uniform. Hang them too high and you will increase wall losses unneeded.

no reflectors reflective walls
Even with reflectors, reflective walls can help get more light back to the plants. If you don't have reflective walls, adding reflectors would be a way to decrease losses. Also poorly reflective walls like white plastic or diamond foil will probably benefit from using reflectors to make sure less light hits the walls.

large gro reflectors if up on a higher canopy but more cobs as well
The larger the grow the bigger the benefit is of not adding reflectors, because COBs not near a wall don't need a reflector.
 

ketchup45685224

Well-Known Member
That is good info although taking into consideration lux meters are based on lumens and designed for the human vision curve. Since we cannot see reds/deep reds very well, the lux meter will significantly penalize the 3000K and we have no idea the SPD of the generic LED which might have higher percentages of yellow/green. So the Vero output is potentially even higher than indicated vs the generic in this case.
View attachment 3578854
There is no doubt the Vero 29s are better. The fact I need 5 times as many power supplies kinda kills the cheap LEDs. Unless, I found a much cheaper way to drive them. I agreed the color difference is going to make some difference. I only have 3000Ks on hand and I had to pull that out of a working prototype to test it.

You guys have me sold on the LEDs. I just have to find a way to build them at a price that works. I only pay about 15 cent per kilowatt. The pay back would take a year or more.
 

Fastslappy

Well-Known Member
There is no doubt the Vero 29s are better. The fact I need 5 times as many power supplies kinda kills the cheap LEDs. Unless, I found a much cheaper way to drive them. I agreed the color difference is going to make some difference. I only have 3000Ks on hand and I had to pull that out of a working prototype to test it.

You guys have me sold on the LEDs. I just have to find a way to build them at a price that works. I only pay about 15 cent per kilowatt. The pay back would take a year or more.
the more u put into the front end the faster it pays off & then yer saving even more (once paid off ) because you paid it forward & your use is less because u did .
 

ketchup45685224

Well-Known Member
Yes. The new once end with 22, 23,24
The new once V2 have been around for a while so not so new.
Old once were endd with numbers 02, 03,04

Google bridgelux vero 29 pdf to see new V2 datasheet.
Google farnell vero 29 array series pdf for old datasheet
I have 4 of those all ready. I was thinking the V2 was something new.
 

BuddyColas

Well-Known Member
Supra did you get a Vero 29 V2
I have been waiting for your vero 29 vs cxb data
:peace:
Oh me too! I've been sitting here at ringside waiting for the heavy weight fight between the CXB3590 "The Cree-tan COB Killer" vs the challenger Vero 29 v2. :clap:

We already know the Vero 29 will likely lose...but it will be a technical knock out at best...maybe even a split decision...maybe only lose by 3 to 4%. "Let's get ready to rumble!"
 
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Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
Only 20% of emitted light is outside the 105 degree angle though. Also, as I have shown, most of the light hitting a reflector would never have hit a wall if the reflector wasn't there.
Oh my bad...ONLY 20%...that potentially could be completely lost in some situation. You need to get out of thinking you are the only situation possible and only way of doing things.

You haven't shown anything. You have made hypothesis based on a few basic concepts. That's all fine and sound. But let's be clear, you illustrated it in paint. You have not shown, proven, or even tested anything. You conveniently leave out any imperfections by your walls...but point out any shortcomings of a designated reflector.
Reflectors are designed to give the desired pattern which will be delivered to the canopy...to your walls incident angle dependant performance. Reflectors can be on any light...walls don't really pop up anywhere.
Bare is good and with highly reflective walls and a very enclosed area, is a toss up. But I and many have no problems seeing, saying...hell even actually testing it. You are very one way though.

PPFD delivered is another form of light measurement and takes the system as a whole, optics included, into account. And is what you keep arguing against here and elsewhere. And is the measurement closest/more important to the end goal...light photons reaching plant surface.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
You haven't shown anything. You have made hypothesis based on a few basic concepts. That's all fine and sound. But let's be clear, you illustrated it in paint. You have not shown, proven, or even tested anything. You conveniently leave out any imperfections by your walls...but point out any shortcomings of a designated reflector.
I have argued that in MOST situations a lot more light hits the reflectors instead of the walls. Whether reflectors actually work better than reflective walls depends on the efficiency of the used reflectors and/or reflective walls. That's it. Nothing wrong with any of that. Nothing hypothesis about it either.

Only bit of hypothesis I offered was that highly and direct reflective materials work better than a piece of semi-translucent flat white plastic. That's based on test results though. Not tested by me, but still.

That drawing is more like a Venn diagram than anything else. Simply an effort to explain a point better than just with words alone. It's pretty clear that more light hits the reflectors in most grow rooms (apart from very small ones).

BTW I didn't even start this, alesh did. Clearly he also instinctively felt something was wrong with the currently ongoing reflector hype. I was just left with the ensuing angry horde.

So which is better or worse, first trying to figure out the fundamental physics that apply or just test something without keeping the physics of it all in mind and then draw false conclusions from those tests? Especially without even questioning the rather staggering test results themselves?

It's not that easy to get those tests done properly. Taking a few PPFD measurements doesn't really say enough. The average PPFD jumping up by 20% to 30% only from using a reflector should also start alarm bells go off that something is wrong with the test. Or at least prompt the question where that light was lost in the situation without a reflector.

For instance calculate up front what you think the PPFD should be and then compare to the test results to see if you were right. If not, then why not.

When the question comes up to estimate average PPFD we work with 5 to 10% wall reflection losses when using COBs and average PPFD tests tend to confirm that (when using reflective walls). Then it "turns out" that reflectors actually "create" 20 to 30% more light. How could that possible be if you lose only 5 to 10% to begin with? Wall reflection losses would need to be around 25 to 40% for that to actually be correct. So obviously something does not add up there. I'l offer another hypothesis, it shows how poorly diamond pattern walls perform. Although that was also a finding from the above mentioned reflectance test.

You also cannot simply add matrices of a handful sqft sector spot measurements to claim good light distribution when the light isn't distributed evenly over those sqft sectors.

I have done plenty of light distribution and reflection tests to know how easy it is to get it wrong. I have seen led sellers come up with average PPFD values 10% higher than the "PPF divided by the surface area" as well. Somehow people just don't seem to get the strict relationship between PPF and PPFD. Keeping that in mind should help to at least catch those testing errors.

You should read professional large scale test reports. They keep so much in mind and measure everything meticulously. For example when testing different spectral distributions they measure chemical composition of the plants and their nutrient uptake. Turns out that a different spectrum can mean plants also need different nutrients. There are also differences in stomatal conductance and therefore CO2 uptake and transpiration. Obviously since the chemical composition can differ, the taste of the produce can be different also. A test with added FR light resulted in noticeably sweeter tomatoes (ie people would pick them out as being tastiest in a blind taste test).

Of course it's fun to test things. I love testing things and try something new with just about every grow. Though we need to be aware of the limitations of our small scale tests. I never pretend my tests prove anything conclusively. Most of the times I will say it's more an indication that something might work and perhaps only in certain situations. For instance by adding a phrase like "when using highly reflective walls". Sometimes I even have to admit that I cannot say what caused the results when others are already going wild over the results and contribute it to a single factor.

I understand it can be annoying when someone explains that things went wrong with your test, but shooting the messenger won't improve the tests.
 

nogod_

Well-Known Member
Reflectors Undone
By: W. Fras

Chapter: 1

I have argued that in MOST situations a lot more light hits the reflectors instead of the walls.
Whether reflectors actually work better than reflective walls depends on the efficiency of the used reflectors and/or reflective walls. That's it. Nothing wrong with any of that. Nothing hypothesis about it either.

Only bit of hypothesis I offered was that highly and direct reflective materials work better than a piece of semi-translucent flat white plastic. That's based on test results though. Not tested by me, but still.

That drawing is more like a Venn diagram than anything else. Simply an effort to explain a point better than just with words alone. It's pretty clear that more light hits the reflectors in most grow rooms (apart from very small ones).

Chapter: 2

BTW I didn't even start this, alesh did. Clearly he also instinctively felt something was wrong with the currently ongoing reflector hype. I was just left with the ensuing angry horde.

So which is better or worse, first trying to figure out the fundamental physics that apply or just test something without keeping the physics of it all in mind and then draw false conclusions from those tests? Especially without even questioning the rather staggering test results themselves?

It's not that easy to get those tests done properly. Taking a few PPFD measurements doesn't really say enough. The average PPFD jumping up by 20% to 30% only from using a reflector should also start alarm bells go off that something is wrong with the test. Or at least prompt the question where that light was lost in the situation without a reflector.

For instance calculate up front what you think the PPFD should be and then compare to the test results to see if you were right. If not, then why not.


Chapter: 3


When the question comes up toestimate average PPFD we work with 5 to 10% wall reflection losses when using COBs and average PPFD tests tend to confirm that (when using reflective walls). Then it "turns out" that reflectors actually "create" 20 to 30% more light. How could that possible be if you lose only 5 to 10% to begin with? Wall reflection losses would need to be around 25 to 40% for that to actually be correct. So obviously something does not add up there. I'l offer another hypothesis, it shows how poorly diamond pattern walls perform. Although that was also a finding from the above mentioned reflectance test.

Chapter: 4

You also cannot simply add matrices of a handful sqft sector spot measurements to claim good light distribution when the light isn't distributed evenly over those sqft sectors.

I have done plenty of light distribution and reflection tests to know how easy it is to get it wrong. I have seen led sellers come up with average PPFD values 10% higher than the "PPF divided by the surface area" as well. Somehow people just don't seem to get the strict relationship between PPF and PPFD. Keeping that in mind should help to at least catch those testing errors.

You should read professional large scale test reports. They keep so much in mind and measure everything meticulously. For example when testing different spectral distributions they measure chemical composition of the plants and their nutrient uptake. Turns out that a different spectrum can mean plants also need different nutrients. There are also differences in stomatal conductance and therefore CO2 uptake and transpiration. Obviously since the chemical composition can differ, the taste of the produce can be different also. A test with added FR light resulted in noticeably sweeter tomatoes (ie people would pick them out as being tastiest in a blind taste test).

Chapter: 5

Of course it's fun to test things. I love testing things and try something new with just about every grow. Though we need to be aware of the limitations of our small scale tests. I never pretend my tests prove anything conclusively. Most of the times I will say it's more an indication that something might work and perhaps only in certain situations. For instance by adding a phrase like "when using highly reflective walls". Sometimes I even have to admit that I cannot say what caused the results when others are already going wild over the results and contribute it to a single factor.

I understand it can be annoying when someone explains that things went wrong with your test, but shooting the messenger won't improve the tests.

THE END.
 
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