True HP Aero For 2011

Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
aerojunkie said:
I was doing a little research on canna products and I cant find any nutrient analysis? Does anyone even know the NPK of this product?
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I had the same issue before, fortunately Atomizer gave me this a while back:
1ml/L EC is around 0.4, NO3: 56, NH4: 4, P: 9, K:63, Mg: 9, S: 8, Ca:41, Fe:0.21, B: 0.07, Zn:0.07, Mn:0.14, Mo: 0.02, Cu: 0.01

Edit: I see he has already done a step better with the label.. :D
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Ok guys, I did a mist test today. Unfortunately I don't quite know what went wrong. My tests seem to reinforce Mike's observations in that the mist was alot more coarse than expected. I can only wonder if they changed their manufacturing specs or have a whole batch of imperfect nozzles. There is a possibility that my testing method was flawed, so I will explain what I did.

Basically I tried to reproduce the method Cavadge used by making a T off the output of the pump- one side going to my mister and the other to an adjustable valve so I could bleed off just enough pressure to keep the pump's pressure switch from cycling it on and off.

The spray came out alot coarser than expected, and when striking the impingment needle basically made a flat line of spray on each side of the nozzle with some finer mist in between. I didn't have to bother with the valve because even with it all the way closed off and only a single misthead, the flowrate was such that the pressure never reached a level that caused the pressure switch to trigger. I don't know if the fact I didn't bother incorporating the accumulator had anything to do with it (I thought perhaps the pump was cycling so fast I couldn't hear the impulses) but opening the valve only made things worse and the mist even coarser. I remembered tree farmer mentioning there were some bad nozzles in every batch, but I tried 3 and got similar results. The dig nozzles in my garden did indeed make a finer mist even off my 90lb main pressure (pump is supposed to achieve 150 psi, which I doubt it ever did because the fact it never pressure cycled).

I am at a loss here. I don't have any other real life experience with 50 micron mistheads, but I am pretty sure something is wrong, especially because the pump could not keep up with the flowrate of a single misthead. I did not teflon tape the threads anywhere, so perhaps some leakage caused the pressure to never get high enough, but I didn't notice a single drop leaking from anywhere- although there was an unexplainable puddle of water on the counter. I will tighten things up a bit just incase, and try every single nozzle I have and see if I can get any better results. I didn't bother taking any video/pics because the results were so poor. If anyone has any other thoughts, please let me know. For now the only idea I have is that there was some leak somewhere inline that I was not aware of.

EDIT: Okay- so I teflon taped up all the threads and I believe that was the bulk of the issue. The pump began cycling due to the pressure switch being triggered. I felt much better about this now. I adjusted the valve just to the point where it was as closed as much as possible, yet the pump remained steadily on. I did not plumb in a pressure gauge yet, and considering the low tech way I was controlling the pressure, it's quite possible I was not operating at an optimum pressure (I was only using a plastic JG ball valve as opposed to the more precisely adjustable threaded brass valve Cav used). Unfortunately- it seems the nozzle was still not performing as good as I would have expected. It could very well be due to not achieving steady optimal pressure, but I also believe it has to do with the impingement pin- it seems like the mist is not deflecting from it equally in all directions and therefore more of a spray rather than fine mist on one side comes off of it. This could be due to a bad nozzle such a tree farmer mentions, but it is 1am and I already made enough noise for this time of night- lol. The pump was not very noisy once I isolated it by picking it up, but as it lay on the counter is sounded more like a small air compressor. Tomorrow I will plumb in a pressure gauge and test another couple misters. I will also take a pic or two, hopefully I can capture a visual of the mist with proper lighting.

As it was on this test, besides the spray part of the mist that was bad, the other portion of the mist was very fine, even finer than the DIG nozzle mist. The dig nozzle mist reminds me of a plasic spray bottle with a hand squeeze lever and it's spray tip screwed to it's tightest setting, the good portion of the mist from my biocontrol nozzle was nearly invisible, yet I could sense the humidity in the air and see where it has flown all about the kitchen and condensed on various surfaces. If I could get this mist to be the only thing coming out of the mist-head, I think it is exactly what I am looking for, and finer than a DIG nozzle on it's finest setting.
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
foresakenlion said:
There's a silk screen link further back for down to around 50 micro, and filter bags on US plastics down to 1 micron someone else linked to.

Checked freshwater, no longer available if it was, however I'm guessing you found them on Ebay, I don't know about using unknown third world steel. I'll keep looking.
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Here is one of the gauges I got (was h20 distributors)- $12 bucks and upon recieving it it looks nice and feels heavy and of good quality. I dunno if 3rd world steel matters or not. It's made for a human drinking water system, so I figure it cannot be too bad for plants. The price is definitely right I thought.
 
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foresakenlion

Active Member
Thank you Trichy, I'll check it out, if you guys are going to DIY nutes I suggest you read into angstrom nutrients, as an advanced topic, and check out hydrobuddy with that you can plug in Mel Franks or anyone else s formula, and tailor it to the EC of the strain at different stages depending on how anal you're. Other than that I read an article by an Agrihouse guy using one of those push fit strains on kelp and guano and getting fantastic results, all organic.

The angstrom nutrients hold the greatest potential though, they don't have all the minerals we need available I don't believe yet, but they have some ones that could have unknown benefits, like gold and silver, since angstrom sizes are more bioavailable this should boost growth rate, and I mean past aero, other than lighting there's very little to do other than perfect.
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
foresakenlion said:
Thank you Trichy, I'll check it out, if you guys are going to DIY nutes I suggest you read into angstrom nutrients, as an advanced topic, and check out hydrobuddy with that you can plug in Mel Franks or anyone else s formula, and tailor it to the EC of the strain at different stages depending on how anal you're. Other than that I read an article by an Agrihouse guy using one of those push fit strains on kelp and guano and getting fantastic results, all organic.

The angstrom nutrients hold the greatest potential though, they don't have all the minerals we need available I don't believe yet, but they have some ones that could have unknown benefits, like gold and silver, since angstrom sizes are more bioavailable this should boost growth rate, and I mean past aero, other than lighting there's very little to do other than perfect.
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Sure man... I don't know much about angstrom nutes, but thanks for giving me something else to research. True if you have your aero dialed in and lighting perfect and perfect nutes, you pretty much have as good as it gets (perhaps co2 might be the final addition). But I think there will be alot more to "dialing in the aero" than it initially seems. Even when you get the proper mist in the chamber, it will always need fine tuning due to temps and plant growth stage, not to mention ever getting it right in the first place by having all the variables working together to meet the task at hand.

EDIT: looked up angstrom, and I have ran across it before. It sounds like it could be another scheme to make their product sell. If I read it right it has to do with the particle size of the element, but I know of no competent sceintific study that mentions any benefits in humans or plants for that matter. It's only an initial thought, and perhaps there is more than that to the concept. I figure if the plant already can absorb it in the size found in nature, then could it possibly be improved on? On the other hand I suppose we are trying to manipulate the water droplet size, but I think that's sort of different. Feel free to put up any links to literature that was compelling to you and I'll check it out.

I'm going to KISS on the nutes and not bother with organics in hpa. I don't want to have to deal with nozzle clogs, which I expect will be fairly common unless a clean clear solution is used. Also the EC we will use is so exceedingly small, there might not be much room for additional additives. Once hpa is dialed in properly, it will benefit the plants so much I doubt there will be much more room to improve with addition of organics and what not, but I am only guessing. I suppose I'll start simple, and if I decide there is room for improvement, I can go from there.

Also, saw you previously mentioned beneficials and how they are necessary to convert the nutes for the plants. With organics this is true, but if you run chemical nutes, they are already broken down into the forms the plant can utilize, and the beneficials aren't necessary in this case, so you can run completely sterile- no good or bad guys. Some people claim organics taste better, but I am a food/wine conoisseur with an extremely sensitive palate at least for those things and haven't noticed a difference myself. I think if the plants are not over-nuted and cured properly, then even pure chemical nutes can yield excellent quality results. It's hard to compare side by side however, because other variables are always involved.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
The easiest route is to find a nute that works and then homebrew it. Its worthwhile if you run a large chamber dtw but for a smallish setup it would be easier to buy a bottle off the shelf.
I run low levels of chlorine in the nutes at all times, it keeps the system sterile, no clogging issues from bits breaking off furred up organic lines, no algae and its cheap :)
 
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foresakenlion

Active Member
You guys have so many X factors here, I'd suggest Lucas or a line, and just the line, nothing else, you need to eliminate your X factors or you won't get any valid research.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
The Lucas formula was devised for use with recirculating reservoirs to make nute management easier.
Here`s a few more X factors to consider :)
DTW needs a different nute profile to a recirculated system. Most dtw systems incorporate some kind of media with the idea being the EC is gradually raised in the rootzone until it reaches the required level. Hp aero doesn`t have the luxury of media so the roots get one shot at grabbing everything they need, in the right proportions so they can use it. To further complicate things, some elements are taken up easier than others so the nute profile has to take that into account.
Seems a lot of hassle when TreeFarmer has already proven GH nutes work well, its the same story for canna substra (aka canna hydro vega/flores) with the Atomix
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Atomizer said:
The Lucas formula was devised for use with recirculating reservoirs to make nute management easier.
Here`s a few more X factors to consider :)
DTW needs a different nute profile to a recirculated system. Most dtw systems incorporate some kind of media with the idea being the EC is gradually raised in the rootzone until it reaches the required level. Hp aero doesn`t have the luxury of media so the roots get one shot at grabbing everything they need, in the right proportions so they can use it. To further complicate things, some elements are taken up easier than others so the nute profile has to take that into account.
Seems a lot of hassle when TreeFarmer has already proven GH nutes work well, its the same story for canna substra (aka canna hydro vega/flores) with the Atomix
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That's exactly why I want to use the Canna, in my mind it takes out "x-factors" by being the exact formualation g-love and Atomizer use (seen picture proof of some of the results), and quite similar to tree farmers as well, who post beautiful pictures when he does. My only comment on Lucas is that it seems to be a decent generic formula, not the best, but for alot of people it simplifies things enough that they get better results than they had with other nutes, and that likely causes them to think it must be a great formulation. I don't think it deserves the notoriety it recieves as being the end all be all of nutes, but I have never personally used it.
 
mrflamboynt

mrflamboynt

Member
www.supremehydro.com claims to have it all dialed in.... using buckets, u can stack 2 or 3 on top of each other allowing up to 45" of depth (doubt bud roots would/could be that long) using lids they have designed for bucket stacking. buckets already plumbed for you.... they didnt specify which spray heads, size/type of tubing or fittings etc, that they are using. they said i would have to buy one if i want all that info. haha but OFCOURSE!... anyway they supply the pumps, hosing, timers, buckets, net pots, neoprene sleeves, nutes etc.... gonna have to try one and see for myself, they are claiming maximum plant/root growth currently known to man.... we will see, they are about 1 month out from harvest, when they will share the grow results using their 2011 system....

the only improvement i can think of is cutting a removable panel out of the side of the top bucket so i can inspect the roots and environment without even moving the plant.
 
boodadood

boodadood

Active Member
mrflamboynt said:
www.supremehydro.com claims to have it all dialed in.... using buckets, u can stack 2 or 3 on top of each other allowing up to 45" of depth (doubt bud roots would/could be that long) using lids they have designed for bucket stacking. buckets already plumbed for you.... they didnt specify which spray heads, size/type of tubing or fittings etc, that they are using. they said i would have to buy one if i want all that info. haha but OFCOURSE!... anyway they supply the pumps, hosing, timers, buckets, net pots, neoprene sleeves, nutes etc.... gonna have to try one and see for myself, they are claiming maximum plant/root growth currently known to man.... we will see, they are about 1 month out from harvest, when they will share the grow results using their 2011 system....

the only improvement i can think of is cutting a removable panel out of the side of the top bucket so i can inspect the roots and environment without even moving the plant.
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those arent HPA roots man..thats a glorified bucket system worth its weight in parts...HPA is a different animal
 
mrflamboynt

mrflamboynt

Member
boodadood said:
those arent HPA roots man..thats a glorified bucket system worth its weight in parts...HPA is a different animal
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hey i got no problem being wrong. but i gotta learn!!
can you elaborate on what HPA roots should look like, and point us in the direction of examples of properly executing true aero?
also i have not seen any other systems out there offering proper clearance for root zone suspension....

share the KNOWLEDGE!!
 
boodadood

boodadood

Active Member
mrflamboynt said:
is this stuff any good?

http://www.aeroponics.com/aero6.html

looks like they have "personal" and commercial grade.... the commercial grade looks authentic, but who knows about the "personal" stuff?
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thats the place where some folks get there mist nozzles from...they have a great reputation in the aero world

i do not have pics of real HPA roots as i too am just starting out and learning about stuff...do some searches here and on other forums and you will see the fuzzies
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
mrflamboynt said:
hey i got no problem being wrong. but i gotta learn!!
can you elaborate on what HPA roots should look like, and point us in the direction of examples of properly executing true aero?
also i have not seen any other systems out there offering proper clearance for root zone suspension....

share the KNOWLEDGE!!
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Hi mrflamboynt- the type of aero and roots we are trying to achieve here is a bit different than will be written/depicted in other places. Fortunately the knowledge you ask for is mentioned in this thread, which is basically a summation of knowledge from other threads out there that all are similar in concept. If you read this thread from the start there are links to all that you could possibly need to know for a foundation. A short summary is that by building a high pressure system, shooting 50ish microm mist bursts of less than a second every few minutes will prompt the roots to grow tiny fuzzy hairs all over them (if properly dialed in and all variables accounted for), and that is related to some benefits over traditional hydro/aero methods. It's alot more complicated and involved than this simple statement, and understanding the basic principles takes some time and reading. But if it sounds interesting enough to you, then the thread and links to the original threads are here for you to read. I've reposted some root pics from another grower using similar concepts back in post #336 of this thread-you can see the differences there.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Supreme hydro thinks hp aero is all about the mist. I can`t see anyone parting with $300 after seeing the week by week root growth comparison pics on their website.
If the roots look anything like theirs after the first couple of days.. your timer is probably stuck in the on position :)
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Atomizer said:
Supreme hydro thinks hp aero is all about the mist. I can`t see anyone parting with $300 after seeing the week by week root growth comparison pics on their website.
If the roots look anything like theirs after the first couple of days.. your timer is probably stuck in the on position :)
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hehe :D
Everybody tends to think it's only all about the mist (or droplet size). But there is a bigger picture apparently if you want to get better results. Control over the mist once you have it seems to be where the best results are achieved if I understand things correctly. I still think to date, the only commercial company who possibly understood this was Atomix. I wonder if things would have been different if they ever tried to sell a hydraulic model that may have been cheaper and slightly easier for their customers to dial in correctly. As I read through the journals, it seems only g-love was able to consistently get good results with it, and even his grows were riddled with issues. I'll say that when he had problems however, it was either dumb luck or a simple mistake which he always recognized afterwards. I learned just as much "what to do" as "what not to do" from reading his journals...

Aero seems to be one of the few hobbies where when you build your own, you can likely build it much better than any currently available commercial systems. All the pretty pre-fab plastic molded tubs in the world can't make up for the undlerlying design shortcomings.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Trichy Bastard said:
Even if 4x4 were large enough with a 1min mist cycle (which I doubt it is anyway) it would have to be also with only one single mister, which would never get the coverage necessary to all areas of the roots even of a single plant.

Petflora- if you haven't seen G-love's journals on UK420, he posts pics of the whole lifecycle up to harvest. He does use atomized hpa, but the environment is similar enough to what we try to do with an accumulator. Perhaps that is what you are looking for? I thought it was very inspiring stuff.
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I signed up at UK420 many moons ago, but they never responded. I tried again like an hour ago. Still no confirmation. I also googled uk420/G-love- nada
 
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foresakenlion

Active Member
Actually wrong, Lucas is merely Mel Franks targets for Cannabis under intense light, either outdoors in Summer or indoors under 1000W HPS within meter squared. Best practices even with Lucas due to biofilm/effluent is to DTW at least once a week, I've used Lucas personally on 2 week reservoir changes, I wouldn't recommend it, it will stunt your growth, res change every week.

I don't wish to argue on the subject so I suggest you search Lucas Formula, Lucas and his Guru pH that came up with actually have their original posts on the subject on CW, there's also a few websites that have sprung up like Cannastats and others that have the pure knowledge without all the idiocy people think the formula is that's spread across every forum you run into.
 
Trichy Bastard

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
foresakenlion said:
Actually wrong, Lucas is merely Mel Franks targets for Cannabis under intense light, either outdoors in Summer or indoors under 1000W HPS within meter squared. Best practices even with Lucas due to biofilm/effluent is to DTW at least once a week, I've used Lucas personally on 2 week reservoir changes, I wouldn't recommend it, it will stunt your growth, res change every week.

I don't wish to argue on the subject so I suggest you search Lucas Formula, Lucas and his Guru pH that came up with actually have their original posts on the subject on CW, there's also a few websites that have sprung up like Cannastats and others that have the pure knowledge without all the idiocy people think the formula is that's spread across every forum you run into.
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Not sure if you're answering Atomizer or myself, but I'll put in my 2 cents. Regardless of the other details, I think the main point is that Lucas does not have DTW in mind, which means it is not optimal for our application. Not sure what you mean by a weekly DTW, unless you mean reservoir change? DTW (drain to waste) means we spray the nutrients once, and let them go to a drain, never recirculating them and repsraying again. The small EC we run, along with the light misting, allows this method to remin economical in HPA. The benefits are many, including not having to check your ph or EC again after the initial reservoir fill, and not recirculating bad microorganisms that might get a better chance to proliferate otherwise.
 
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