True HP Aero For 2011

just a quick update ive order my therm-x-trol st12 expansion tank will land in oz iin about 3-4 weeks,,have my 240v 100psi rv water pump and 240v adjustable pressure switch that i picked up from a local shop here...

and i will probably have to get made a couple of 240v shut off valves as i havent seen many around for a good price.

a electrical shop can get hold of a digital timer that has 0.2 increments for on times as well as being able to set the overall pause time between cycles but this is going to cost me a bit $359 but i think it will be worth it

i will get my fitting when my tank arrives


getting all excited:mrgreen:
 

r0m30

Active Member
r0m- in regards to led lights, check out post #607 here: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/418071-irish-boys-2011-spectra-led-2.html
<....snip...>
Hehe- I just had to laugh that your cab is in your office- wonder how many people will walk by unknowing of the treasures inside...
Arrrg....One more to consider. One of the things I like about HSS is that they are passively cooled. Most of the LED designs pack the LEDs close together and then install lots of fans to pull the heat out, overheating and poorly regulated power are two of the worst things you can do to an electronic device, this is also less efficient and nosier. I've looked at a lot of LED journals and it seems like you can get some good bud with them.

O'SH!T went to the HSS site to compare the specs against the Spectra Irishboy was using an they have a new version of the 800 too, guess my procrastination may have worked in my favor this time.

The cab will be in my home office, not near as much traffic there....

P: If you have a large enough pod one second is fine, but in a small pod a one second mist over saturates the roots. Taking it further: 5G buckets probably need like 0.25-0.3 seconds max. Getting a timer that can do that costs money for most of us.
Yes, I am aware of the issues with smaller pods and am thinking of ways to increase the root chamber size within the limits of my cabinet. I'm not arguing that the 5 Gal buckets are ideal but they fit nicely in the cabinet and bud will grow in them.

This is am important bit of info Atomizer posted here a while back, I thought it good to bring it back up again since we've been talking about mist chamber sizing and saturation... Armed with this knowledge, you can decide how many mist nozzles your chamber might need based on the nozzle's spray pattern, and then you can take the nozzle's listed theoretical flowrate and multiply by the amount of nozzles decided on. Once having the total flowrate per second of all the nozzles combined, you can figure out how much theoretical timing it would take to meet the preferred <1ml per 100l of chamber volume. I don't know if Atomizer got this info from somewhere else, or discovered it by his own trial and error, but it sure is nice having a guideline to start by. Thanks again Atomizer!
Yes, it's great to have this type of info from someone who has shown their abilities and knowledge using HPA. Thanks Atomizer.

If my math is right, highly improbable this early in the morning, that works out to .01585 GPM using a one second cycle for a 105.6 Quart (26.4 Gal) chamber for those of us who live in that country that refuses to adopt a logical measurement system (1 ml = .00264 Gal x 60 = .01585 and 100L = 105.6688 Quarts).

That's about the flow rating of a single Tefen red mister. Yikes that puts the 5gal bucket with 2 misters at about 50x the target on a one second cycle. Even if you could get the .1 second burst that's still 5x. And then there's the issue of coverage :wall:

Edit: I told you my math was suspect this early in the morning, it's about 10x (I hope)
 

r0m30

Active Member
and i will probably have to get made a couple of 240v shut off valves as i havent seen many around for a good price.
.......
getting all excited:mrgreen:
Wouldn't it be cheaper and safer to plug a wall wart into your timer and run 12VDC solenoids (I'm assuming that's what you mean by shut off valves)? High voltage and water aren't the best of combinations, and the solenoids need to be close the sprayers for the best performance.

It's great when all the parts arrive and you make your first mist.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Thanks for reposting that TB, that little piece of vital information should help me find a starting point for tuning my table. If I have done my math right the chamber is about 930liters, so I should be aiming for about 8-9ml in a single misting. I can run 6 nozzels at @ 1 second to achieve this, and just thinking about the size this seems to "feel" right to me but I will have to play with it and see.
Which nozzles are you considering- the biocontrols ones I got? Yeah, I figure I can't entirely commit to final nozzle placement until I do a "mist test" unfortunately the jg fittings that connect the nozzles to the tubing are one of the couple things I'm waiting on, so I'm kinda stuck... Just like me, even if the mist output sounds about right, you'll also have to make sure the coverage is good, cuz if there's any dryspots the roots won't do very well... I assume that the roots themselves can eventually block the mist from moving around properly in certain situations, so I will try to have my nozzle placement with this in mind. Most likely instead of aiming straight down from the top, I'll probably have the nozzles in the upper few inches of the walls pointing horizontally- it already got Atomizer's blessing.. -Oh- and don't thank me- thank him for providing the good info ;)
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
just a quick update ive order my therm-x-trol st12 expansion tank will land in oz iin about 3-4 weeks,,have my 240v 100psi rv water pump and 240v adjustable pressure switch that i picked up from a local shop here...

and i will probably have to get made a couple of 240v shut off valves as i havent seen many around for a good price.

a electrical shop can get hold of a digital timer that has 0.2 increments for on times as well as being able to set the overall pause time between cycles but this is going to cost me a bit $359 but i think it will be worth it

i will get my fitting when my tank arrives


getting all excited:mrgreen:
Great to hear it man! 240v mixed with water sounds a little spooky, be careful... :o The pressure switch actually doesn't run off any electricity, but only is a mechanical switch operated from the water pressure and I think a diaphram inside. I'm pretty sure the voltage listed was only a rating for the relay contacts it controls.

You could just as easy buy 12v solenoids like me, and use a wall wart (transformer) to power them.

Why not consider the atc-422 timer I got... Everyone who has used them says they're great, and only 91usd. Even with shipping to oz it will save you a lot of cash. It's available in 240v a/c too...

BTW- which pump did you end up settling on?
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Arrrg....One more to consider. One of the things I like about HSS is that they are passively cooled. Most of the LED designs pack the LEDs close together and then install lots of fans to pull the heat out, overheating and poorly regulated power are two of the worst things you can do to an electronic device, this is also less efficient and nosier. I've looked at a lot of LED journals and it seems like you can get some good bud with them. Yes- the journals seem to recently reflect the newest led technology is getting better and better...

O'SH!T went to the HSS site to compare the specs against the Spectra Irishboy was using an they have a new version of the 800 too, guess my procrastination may have worked in my favor this time. Nice!

The cab will be in my home office, not near as much traffic there.... Ok- thought u were a little crazy for doing this at your employer's place- hehe



Yes, I am aware of the issues with smaller pods and am thinking of ways to increase the root chamber size within the limits of my cabinet. I'm not arguing that the 5 Gal buckets are ideal but they fit nicely in the cabinet and bud will grow in them. Understand man, no one is looking down on your idea, but only trying to make sure you understand the situation fully, what you do with it is up to you... The one thing worth noting is that if you over saturate, you'll probably get no different results that you would with nft/flood and drain/lp aero. In that case you might consider bypassing the extra complexity and expense of an hpa setup, unless you want to do the work now, and plan to change out the chamber later to get the different results when you can...



Yes, it's great to have this type of info from someone who has shown their abilities and knowledge using HPA. Thanks Atomizer.

If my math is right, highly improbable this early in the morning, that works out to .01585 GPM using a one second cycle for a 105.6 Quart (26.4 Gal) chamber for those of us who live in that country that refuses to adopt a logical measurement system (1 ml = .00264 Gal x 60 = .01585 and 100L = 105.6688 Quarts). Too tired to check your math right now too, especially without knowing for sure the nozzles you'll use or their specs, but agree our measurement system is stupid and archaic. We're not known for learning foreign languages either, just expecting all the rest of the world to have to do all the extra work for the privelage of dealing with us (cool, huh?).

That's about the flow rating of a single Tefen red mister. Yikes that puts the 5gal bucket with 2 misters at about 50x the target on a one second cycle. Even if you could get the .1 second burst that's still 5x. And then there's the issue of coverage :wall:
Again, without checking the math, I think you're starting to understand the point. Did you ever mention the nozzles you were going with? The Biocontrols or the tefen? There may be some lower flow nozzles options, which would really help, but I don't know if any are as low as you'd need. Perhaps you could cut a hole in the wall behind the cabinet and allow for a bigger chamber- hehe. Ok sorry, I know this is serious stuff for you and you want to make it work. If you are happy with the results Cavadge got, you can definitely get that- it is nothing to be unhappy about. Even with his overmisting, he claimed much better results than in his aeroflow. I know I'm being contradictory with my previous statement about the oversaturated hpa being the same as nft- (none of which is based on any personal experiences I've had myself). But the buckets did allow much more room for roots than the aeroflows, so you could probably consider it a "top-notch LP aero producer" that's "HPA ready". ;) The big drawback will be having to recirculate- but your drainage issue also dissapears in this case - the silver lining in the snafu.
 

Destroy The Autobots

Active Member
r0m30 have you considered stacking the 5 Gal buckets to create a deeper chamber? That's what I plan on having for root chambers when I am finally able to build my Cab and HPA.
 

r0m30

Active Member
Pod Size v Timer: When I was having problems with seeing root hairs Atomizer helped a great deal. I had been using an 18 Gallon pod with 2 mist heads and a one second burst. The pod was too small for that much moisture. I switched to a 30G pod and within a few days the root hairs appeared.

Extrapolating: If you have a large enough pod one second is fine, but in a small pod a one second mist over saturates the roots. Taking it further: 5G buckets probably need like 0.25-0.3 seconds max. Getting a timer that can do that costs money for most of us.
Interesting that the larger chamber I'm looking at is 18G, the math says that the target mist interval should be ~.33 seconds with two of the Tefen red CV misters. What misters were you using, how were they placed and what kind of coverage were you getting?

In a 5G bucket the math says ~.09 seconds with two Tefen red CV Misters. So it MIGHT be doable with a single mister if you're willing to risk losing a girl for a clogged nozzel.


Again, without checking the math, I think you're starting to understand the point. Did you ever mention the nozzles you were going with? The Biocontrols or the tefen? There may be some lower flow nozzles options, which would really help, but I don't know if any are as low as you'd need. Perhaps you could cut a hole in the wall behind the cabinet and allow for a bigger chamber- hehe. Ok sorry, I know this is serious stuff for you and you want to make it work. If you are happy with the results Cavadge got, you can definitely get that- it is nothing to be unhappy about. Even with his overmisting, he claimed much better results than in his aeroflow. I know I'm being contradictory with my previous statement about the oversaturated hpa being the same as nft- (none of which is based on any personal experiences I've had myself). But the buckets did allow much more room for roots than the aeroflows, so you could probably consider it a "top-notch LP aero producer" that's "HPA ready". ;) The big drawback will be having to recirculate- but your drainage issue also dissapears in this case - the silver lining in the snafu.
I haven't said which misters I'm using, they are the Tefen red CV, 80 degree conical pattern with rated flows of .040, .048 and .062 liters/min. at 3,4 & 6 Bar. I haven't wanted to overrun your thread with a detailed description of my system as that should be in a separate thread, and will be as soon as I get the electrical routed.

I was never trying to say that the buckets were the perfect solution just that they fit very well into a cabinet. I knew I would be over-misting, just not by how much. It is 10x not 50x BTW. Why would I have to recirculate? Even with a 1 second spray I should be under half a Gal per day, that's easily handled by the waste capture system in the cabinet.

I wouldn't say LPA since the acronym actually refers to the system pressure, I would say less that optimal HPA but we are really splitting hairs at that point. ;-)

To me it's not just a quest for perfect HPA roots, I think I pointed out earlier that there are several reasons I was drawn to HPA, among the most important being reduced nutrient cost, reduced water usage, increased energy efficiency and lower noise. I still get all of that even if I don't get the perfect root hairs.

r0m30 have you considered stacking the 5 Gal buckets to create a deeper chamber? That's what I plan on having for root chambers when I am finally able to build my Cab and HPA.
One of many things I considered, even some really crazy stuff while medicated, The issue I had with stacking buckets was that I'd lose another 14 inches of height, at some point you actually want room for the buds to grow. How tall is the cabinet you are planning?
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Interesting that the larger chamber I'm looking at is 18G, the math says that the target mist interval should be ~.33 seconds with two of the Tefen red CV misters. What misters were you using, how were they placed and what kind of coverage were you getting?

In a 5G bucket the math says ~.09 seconds with two Tefen red CV Misters. So it MIGHT be doable with a single mister if you're willing to risk losing a girl for a clogged nozzel.
I am not totally positive, but I think nozzle clogs can pretty much be eliminated by using good non-organic nutes and a small micron filter. If you're really paranoid, you could always switch the nozzles out and soak them every week or so- since you only have a couple at most. The other issue though is adequate coverage- not sure if a single nozzle will accomplish this or not in the bucket.



I haven't said which misters I'm using, they are the Tefen red CV, 80 degree conical pattern with rated flows of .040, .048 and .062 liters/min. at 3,4 & 6 Bar. I haven't wanted to overrun your thread with a detailed description of my system as that should be in a separate thread, and will be as soon as I get the electrical routed. This was handy http://convert-to.com/485/flow-units-converter.html for converting my nozzles that are rated >.04 oz/sec @80-100psi to your litre per minute rating. At the higher pressures they are probably pretty close. Do you know what pressure you plan to run at, and will you be using a regulator to keep the pressure constant? It's ok man, if were going to talk about your setup, we need the details I suppose, plus it's totally on topic other than it's not my build- but I don't care man ;)

I was never trying to say that the buckets were the perfect solution just that they fit very well into a cabinet. I knew I would be over-misting, just not by how much. It is 10x not 50x BTW. Why would I have to recirculate? Even with a 1 second spray I should be under half a Gal per day, that's easily handled by the waste capture system in the cabinet. I'm not sure you'll know the exact amount of runoff yet due to so many unknowns in your timings and stuff, but you're right, it's a small system and not much to worry about.

I wouldn't say LPA since the acronym actually refers to the system pressure, I would say less that optimal HPA but we are really splitting hairs at that point. ;-) Agreed! :)

To me it's not just a quest for perfect HPA roots, I think I pointed out earlier that there are several reasons I was drawn to HPA, among the most important being reduced nutrient cost, reduced water usage, increased energy efficiency and lower noise. I still get all of that even if I don't get the perfect root hairs. The way I understand it, without the fuzzy roots, you will have to run higher ec as the roots are not as efficient without the fuzz, now were really getting out of my knowledge here too, as I've yet to ever have fuzzy roots myself YET... :) But everything else is valid points. Perhaps Atomizer will point out if I am wrong somewhere, or give any of his insight (not that I'm trying to sign him up for work)...



One of many things I considered, even some really crazy stuff while medicated, The issue I had with stacking buckets was that I'd lose another 14 inches of height, at some point you actually want room for the buds to grow. How tall is the cabinet you are planning?
I get some crazy ideas sometimes too man... I think it's a good thing most of the time...
 

r0m30

Active Member
I am not totally positive, but I think nozzle clogs can pretty much be eliminated by using good non-organic nutes and a small micron filter. If you're really paranoid, you could always switch the nozzles out and soak them every week or so- since you only have a couple at most. The other issue though is adequate coverage- not sure if a single nozzle will accomplish this or not in the bucket.
I'm planning on using Jack's hydro, the nutrient mix looks good and it has all of the micros, so I think I got the fert covered, the pre-filter is 200 micron and Cavadge didn't have any clogging issues with his setup but it is a risk. The coverage issue is a bitch, if i look at the 18Gal root chamber I have issues as well 2 misters would be more likely to give me the correct nutrient volume but then I worry about coverage with 4 misters it's only a tiny bit getter than the 5gal buckets.
This was handy http://convert-to.com/485/flow-units-converter.html for converting my nozzles that are rated >.04 oz/sec @80-100psi to your litre per minute rating. At the higher pressures they are probably pretty close. Do you know what pressure you plan to run at, and will you be using a regulator to keep the pressure constant? It's ok man, if were going to talk about your setup, we need the details I suppose, plus it's totally on topic other than it's not my build- but I don't care man
Right now I have it set for 80PSI, but I may bump that to 90 when I run super-short misting cycles. Yes, I'm using a pressure reducing valve to keep it at the regulated pressure. Details he says......
Code:
Mist   Delivery System (Flower)        
Nutrient Reservoir      1   8.99   8.99   Stor it all black 17 quart tote       
Waste Reservoir          1   10.99   10.99   Stor it all black 27 quart tote       
Waste Water Pump      1   29.30   29.30   Little Giant VCMA-15ULS   Condensate Removal 1/50 HP Pump with Safety Switch       
Pre-Filter                     1   9.00   9.00   DMFit DMF0404       
Pump                           1   94.00   94.00   Aquatec 6800 PN 6841-2j03-B223       
Pump power supply    1   15.88   15.88   Aquatec PN TAS114-19EP       
Pressure Limit Switch   1   14.35   14.35   Aquatec PN PSW280 wanted the   PSW2100 but couldn't find it        
Pressure Relief Valve   1   13.50   13.50   STAINLESS STEEL 3/4" WATER   WELL PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE       
Accumulator                1   44.45   44.45   Amtrol ST-5 THERM-X-TROL   Expansion Tank, 2 Gallon (140N43)  -   150 PSI       
John Guest fittings      1   86.40   86.40   See JGFit tab (spray adapters   sccounted for individually)       
Watering Solenoid      1   26.95   26.95   1/4" SS 24V AC Solenoid   Valve STAINLESS / VITON S20V       
Pressure Reducing valve   1   29.37   29.37   Watts P60-M5-2C (0-125 PSI)       
Pressure Gauges         2   1.99   3.98   Surplus Center        
Grow Buckets (unit cost)   
5 gal Bucket               1   2.97   2.97   Lowes buckets seem to be the   most opaque       
5 gal Bucket Lid         1   1.28   1.28   
Spray nozzle               2   2.49   4.98   You have to call to get the ones   with check valves, they only have red with CV       
5/8 rubber grommet    2   1.04 2.08   
1/4 rubber grommet    1   0.36   0.36   
1/4 JG Tee                   2   1.65   3.30   
1/4 - 1/8 F NPT JG     2   2.75   5.50
It's damn near impossible to do a table or if there is a way I cant find it :(
I'm not sure you'll know the exact amount of runoff yet due to so many unknowns in your timings and stuff, but you're right, it's a small system and not much to worry about.
Totally agree, just using an educated (or maybe UNeducated, we shall see) guess.

The way I understand it, without the fuzzy roots, you will have to run higher ec as the roots are not as efficient without the fuzz, now were really getting out of my knowledge here too, as I've yet to ever have fuzzy roots myself YET...
But everything else is valid points. Perhaps Atomizer will point out if I am wrong somewhere, or give any of his insight (not that I'm trying to sign him up for work)...
I believe that you can get to much lower EC with the best roots but just the mist seems to allow you to go into the 4-500 PPM range without issues and since HPA is DTW with no need for a large reservoir to buffer the uptake and PH swings so there is a savings there as well without the weekly reservoir changes.

Well it's time to quit talking about it and actually do some putting together of pieces and parts.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
That''s right r0m :D... Anyway, your right as well about the mist- Atomizer once explained to me a big part of it was that the surface area of the drops caused alot of evaporation, which in turn really concentrated the nutes as they were floating about...

So your going with 24v a/c solenoids? It's harder to find an a/c version of a typical wall transformer here, but perhaps things are different where you're at...

Again, only an educated guess, but I am pretty sure 2 nozzles will get fine covereage in an 18 gallon chamber. Mike is setting up chambers nearly 10 gallons larger if I remember correctly and using 2 mist nozzles- I suppose he's yet to do a run in that chamber, but it seems like it would be much more ideal with 2 misters- and still get coverage. You'd think the larger area should allow time for the mist to expand before it bumps into the walls.

I haven't looked into the nutes you mention, but I will pass on Atomizers advice to start with Canna Substra. It is designed for DTW, G-love used it with good results in his Atomix grow, and we know it will work well, so it's one less variable when trying to get things off the ground. It's worth mentioning he also told me he didn't see any reason that a certain regimen that works well in hydro would't work well in hpa- except for the need to lower the ec. But he did seem to feel pretty strongly about starting off with a "known to work" regimen. It would be a benchmanrk for future testing if nothing else.
 

hammer21

Well-Known Member
just a quick update ive order my therm-x-trol st12 expansion tank will land in oz iin about 3-4 weeks,,have my 240v 100psi rv water pump and 240v adjustable pressure switch that i picked up from a local shop here...

and i will probably have to get made a couple of 240v shut off valves as i havent seen many around for a good price.

a electrical shop can get hold of a digital timer that has 0.2 increments for on times as well as being able to set the overall pause time between cycles but this is going to cost me a bit $359 but i think it will be worth it

i will get my fitting when my tank arrives


getting all excited:mrgreen:
Hello getting a timer with 1/10 increments maybe a waste because the reaction times of relays and solenoids, etc all have a time delay (normal relays 5-30 msec) (solenoids 450-6000 msec) (the time fluid reaches nozzle ?) the time fluid is sprayed with optimal results......... Voltage drops, spikes, Pressure flucuations, you see where i`m going with this and all the times of said parts are not the same and never will be. they will all change in time with every cycle you will Never, Ever get exact time every cycle.. Something to think about..............................You will not get rolex results just a fact.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Again, only an educated guess, but I am pretty sure 2 nozzles will get fine covereage in an 18 gallon chamber. Mike is setting up chambers nearly 10 gallons larger if I remember correctly and using 2 mist nozzles- I suppose he's yet to do a run in that chamber, but it seems like it would be much more ideal with 2 misters- and still get coverage. You'd think the larger area should allow time for the mist to expand before it bumps into the walls.

I was unable to get root hairs using 18G with a single mister. within days of switching to 30G they started to appear. hth
 

vapedup

Well-Known Member
can u guys give me ur opinion on what these roots look like? its a Jack Herer. this is just one plant, no topping, no cutting. does it look good? thanksIMG_20110722_185139.jpgroots.jpg
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
can u guys give me ur opinion on what these roots look like? its a Jack Herer. this is just one plant, no topping, no cutting. does it look good? thanksView attachment 1703008View attachment 1703009
Ok- I am not the most experienced person, but I'm guessing they're around week 2 of flower? Look healthy topside, roots look healthy too for being in a waterpark ;) (getting in touch with my new hp snob side- lol) -check out some of tree farmers old pics here (a tad over exposed- but you get the idea) http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f29/trees-aero-15936/ . Here's another thing to think about. If you ever get everything dialed in really good- with hp, lp or soil-whatever, you can get possibly lusher results even without the co2? I've read over and over again that co2 is only going to help after everything else is dialed in- getting the lighting/ph/ec right is much more important, and only once those things are right, will the co2 be advantageous. I have seen some of the more experienced growers have much lusher and denser plants than most and they don't even bother with the co2. Also read in a smaller room just spending a few minutes down there every day raises the co2 levels significantly from your own breathing (Cavadge bought a co2 sensor and noted this). I give you props though, those plants look pretty happy to me, congrats man! :)
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Again, only an educated guess, but I am pretty sure 2 nozzles will get fine covereage in an 18 gallon chamber. Mike is setting up chambers nearly 10 gallons larger if I remember correctly and using 2 mist nozzles- I suppose he's yet to do a run in that chamber, but it seems like it would be much more ideal with 2 misters- and still get coverage. You'd think the larger area should allow time for the mist to expand before it bumps into the walls.

I was unable to get root hairs using 18G with a single mister. within days of switching to 30G they started to appear. hth
Yes, if you try to go without an accumulator or sub 1 second timer, then other paramaters have to be adjusted to try to get closer to optimum conditions. I think this is what Atomizer is trying to tell you why going the extra mile makes sense. Have you been able to get any roots looking like those ones I just posted of tree farmers? Man they are really stunning and unique to me, and that was back a couple years- I bet he has only gotten better since... Did you feel you were getting adequate coverage on the 30 gallon with only a single mister?
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Hello getting a timer with 1/10 increments maybe a waste because the reaction times of relays and solenoids, etc all have a time delay (normal relays 5-30 msec) (solenoids 450-6000 msec) (the time fluid reaches nozzle ?) the time fluid is sprayed with optimal results......... Voltage drops, spikes, Pressure flucuations, you see where i`m going with this and all the times of said parts are not the same and never will be. they will all change in time with every cycle you will Never, Ever get exact time every cycle.. Something to think about..............................You will not get rolex results just a fact.
Hey hammer, haven't heard from you in a while, good to see ya man. It's good to question everything, and take stuff with a grain of salt. But if you think for a moment that I'm not just pulling these ideas out of thin air. I am taking the lead from some pretty experienced Hp guys, who also seem pretty smart in general- and I am sure they wouldn't go to all the extra trouble if it wasn't making a difference. Nothing is ever exact of course- but what kind of magnifying glass are you looking with. I like to read about quantum mechanics and chaos theory and all that stuff- and sure, you're completely right on some microscopic level. But here's my train of thought: Yes there will be parameters that aren't precisely perfect, but trying to minimize them through the best control possible is our best bet. A regulated accumulator setup, with fast acting solenoids as near to the nozzles as possible is going to yield real world precision as far as a plant is concerned. All those little variables you mention only get exponentially worse if you don't take the approach to minimize them as much as reasonably possible to begin with. ;)
 

r0m30

Active Member
So your going with 24v a/c solenoids? It's harder to find an a/c version of a typical wall transformer here, but perhaps things are different where you're at...
It's a side effect of the DIG timer. I bet 24VAC transformers are pretty widely available in HI, you just haven't been looking for them. On your next trip to Casa DePot, your home away from home during the build, take a detour to the lawn sprinkler section a look for a replacement transformer for lawn sprinkler timers.

Again, only an educated guess, but I am pretty sure 2 nozzles will get fine coverage in an 18 gallon chamber. Mike is setting up chambers nearly 10 gallons larger if I remember correctly and using 2 mist nozzles- I suppose he's yet to do a run in that chamber, but it seems like it would be much more ideal with 2 misters- and still get coverage. You'd think the larger area should allow time for the mist to expand before it bumps into the walls.
It's certainly possible that 2 misters would cover the 18G chamber but the damn thing looks huge compared the 5G buckets.

I haven't looked into the nutes you mention, but I will pass on Atomizers advice to start with Canna Substra. It is designed for DTW, G-love used it with good results in his Atomix grow, and we know it will work well, so it's one less variable when trying to get things off the ground. It's worth mentioning he also told me he didn't see any reason that a certain regimen that works well in hydro would't work well in hpa- except for the need to lower the ec. But he did seem to feel pretty strongly about starting off with a "known to work" regimen. It would be a benchmanrk for future testing if nothing else.
J.R. Peters, Inc. - Jacks Hydro It's a two part dry fertilizer and it is only $5 a pound for each part. If you are interested I can post the GA but using the cannastats calculator it will take 3g of the Hydro and 1.8g of the Calcium Nitrate to get a good ganja friendly mixture, there several people using it successfully spread throughout the forms.
Jacks Hydro.jpg

Hello getting a timer with 1/10 increments maybe a waste because the reaction times of relays and solenoids, etc all have a time delay (normal relays 5-30 msec) (solenoids 450-6000 msec) (the time fluid reaches nozzle ?) the time fluid is sprayed with optimal results......... Voltage drops, spikes, Pressure flucuations, you see where i`m going with this and all the times of said parts are not the same and never will be. they will all change in time with every cycle you will Never, Ever get exact time every cycle.. Something to think about..............................You will not get rolex results just a fact.
Agree, we discussed this a few pages back, Atomizer said that in his setup a .1 second misting time produces a .3 second burst of mist. So that is what I'm using as sort of a minimum achievable mist timing. He is after all on of the few on this thread with a running accumulator based setup. I think this is one of the reasons Treefarmer is such an advocate of the fewest misters possible per solenoid, it reduces the effects of the tubing which is really the only thing you have control of after you select your parts.
 

hammer21

Well-Known Member
Hey hammer, haven't heard from you in a while, good to see ya man. It's good to question everything, and take stuff with a grain of salt. But if you think for a moment that I'm not just pulling these ideas out of thin air. I am taking the lead from some pretty experienced Hp guys, who also seem pretty smart in general- and I am sure they wouldn't go to all the extra trouble if it wasn't making a difference. Nothing is ever exact of course- but what kind of magnifying glass are you looking with. I like to read about quantum mechanics and chaos theory and all that stuff- and sure, you're completely right on some microscopic level. But here's my train of thought: Yes there will be parameters that aren't precisely perfect, but trying to minimize them through the best control possible is our best bet. A regulated accumulator setup, with fast acting solenoids as near to the nozzles as possible is going to yield real world precision as far as a plant is concerned. All those little variables you mention only get exponentially worse if you don't take the approach to minimize them as much as reasonably possible to begin with. ;)
That`s exactly what i was trying to say if you are not going the extra mile with your system you will not need to spend the extra cash on 1/10 second timer. Alot of people read this information and spend big buxs on the wrong thing. Fast acting solenoids (yes) $$$ solenoids placed as close to nozzles as possible (yes)$$$$$ check valves in nozzles (yes) $$$$ and with this said you would be able to fine tune your system to a better degree not perfect but close...............Just hate to see people spend big buxs on something that they cannot benifit from thats all. over $300 buxs for a timer no way............
 
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