True HP Aero For 2011

hammer21 said:

View attachment 1843474Here is the pump i`m using now it is a air operated dual diaphram pump 3/8" in and out @ 7GPM @ 120 PSI I do not need a pressure switch what pressure i put in i get out. I use a 3 way solenoid on the air side to discharge air pressure from pump. working great.

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Neat! So is the point of that to be able to run the entire system (other than lights) without any motive power except for air pressure? What about timers? You clearly have a lot of experience and I'd love to check out your system. Looked at your posts. . . Didn't see a journal. Anyway man I hope you chime in on the various questions I have, you clearly have been doing this a while!

Trichy Bastard said:

Awwright guys, I just ordered my canna substra soft water Vega a/b and flores a/b.. Also some 140 tpi silkscreen for the rootscreen and a sampling of 2 each of all the different angles cloudtops nozzles for testing. I think I may at least use slightly different nozzles on the left/right sides since they are special in that there is only 1 nozzle meant to cover the 2 nearest plants from the side. This concludes any items I need to get up and running- I see the finish line, and should be operational by next week. This was just the qualifying lap- the real race begins as I learn how to use this contraption I built.. It feels good to be so close to the next chapter...

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I've heard nothing but good things about canna. Where did you decide to get it?

I too ordered some of the 120o misters and some of the 80o. I only tested them once, but they seemed to have pretty similar patterns. That is not to say that the 80o doesn't "project" farther- maybe I ought to go try mine again.

Atomizer put his finger on it, it's about getting full coverage without over-saturating, easier said than done. What I found with the tefen red or any tefen nozzle is that regardless of it's angle, it made a small cloud of heavy mist in a saucer-sized cone right in front of it, while a finer mist spreads all around as long as the spray continues.

What this means is that you could fill a 30 gal container with just one mister, but one end near the mister would be soaking wet by the time the other end was "just right."

I battle this issue in my buckets. A month or so ago, r0m posted a pic of my roots and you said I wasn't quite there- I agree but I'm stuck as to how to get closer. The deal is that most folks who discuss aero agree that you should get a little runoff, if not much. My problem is that if I dial it back any further, the runoff ceases. I mean, the roots are airy and white and fluffy, but they only have hairs up high right next to the netpot.

I suspect that this is because the mat of roots in my bucket is too thick. When I started, the roots were aero-like but when they reached the bottom, they just proceeded to fill the bucket from the bottom up. Maybe I need to investigate Chen's root-pruning technique!

The reason I'm babbling about it is because I'm thinking of going back to my "gonk pods" for the next run.


So back to you- are you gonna drill a bunch of holes in the bottom, lay the screen on that, and let the "second" bottom catch all the runoff? Seems like if the bottom is double-wall that would be easy to do.

Anyway I'm as excited as you are to see your baby running. I've had all the same feelings! Good work so far.

TB, I believe what you're asking about is the difference between a lid and a puck? The white lid is in fact plastic. It is flexible to the point that it will not easily break when folded, however the diameter of the center remains constant. The black pucks are made of neoprene and the center penetration will mold to the base of your stalk. Because you are outdoors, it may be a good idea to use a combination of the two in order to keep as much debris out of the baskets as possible. Like hammer21 said it will also retain moisture. You shouldn't have much of a problem with the lid strangling your stalk. If you do you can always cut it a little wider. Hope this answers your question.

Trichy Bastard said:

I needed to know what they are made of in the first place-they look rigid and that doesn't sound great to me if the stalk ever gets to the size of the neck ring

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TB are you talking about neoprene inserts (pic)? The ones I have cause no problems and are easily pushed out of the way as the stalk thickens. The ones in the picture have a hole in the center but the ones I have are cut with a X in the center so they can hold a small cutting.

This is a pic of them in the cloner:

Trichy Bastard said:

Well, the reason to stay away from pvc is because the pipes expand too much under pressure, which is not an issue for a single threaded coupling that fits into the metal threads of the accumulator. So the reason is as important as the rule, and I believe sine the reason doesn't apply to this single piece, it makes it a non-issue. Make sense?

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Yes I get that, versus it having the entire system to expand further in, I was actually reading yesterday that PVC has an a perfect service record as pressure relief valve return line.

hammer21 said:

View attachment 1843474Here is the pump i`m using now it is a air operated dual diaphram pump 3/8" in and out @ 7GPM @ 120 PSI I do not need a pressure switch what pressure i put in i get out. I use a 3 way solenoid on the air side to discharge air pressure from pump. working great.

Click to expand...

Yeah, really unique, how does it work?

Mechanibus said:

Neat! So is the point of that to be able to run the entire system (other than lights) without any motive power except for air pressure? What about timers? You clearly have a lot of experience and I'd love to check out your system. Looked at your posts. . . Didn't see a journal. Anyway man I hope you chime in on the various questions I have, you clearly have been doing this a while!



I've heard nothing but good things about canna. Where did you decide to get it?

I too ordered some of the 120o misters and some of the 80o. I only tested them once, but they seemed to have pretty similar patterns. That is not to say that the 80o doesn't "project" farther- maybe I ought to go try mine again.

Atomizer put his finger on it, it's about getting full coverage without over-saturating, easier said than done. What I found with the tefen red or any tefen nozzle is that regardless of it's angle, it made a small cloud of heavy mist in a saucer-sized cone right in front of it, while a finer mist spreads all around as long as the spray continues.

What this means is that you could fill a 30 gal container with just one mister, but one end near the mister would be soaking wet by the time the other end was "just right."

I battle this issue in my buckets. A month or so ago, r0m posted a pic of my roots and you said I wasn't quite there- I agree but I'm stuck as to how to get closer. The deal is that most folks who discuss aero agree that you should get a little runoff, if not much. My problem is that if I dial it back any further, the runoff ceases. I mean, the roots are airy and white and fluffy, but they only have hairs up high right next to the netpot.

I suspect that this is because the mat of roots in my bucket is too thick. When I started, the roots were aero-like but when they reached the bottom, they just proceeded to fill the bucket from the bottom up. Maybe I need to investigate Chen's root-pruning technique!

The reason I'm babbling about it is because I'm thinking of going back to my "gonk pods" for the next run.
View attachment 1843866

So back to you- are you gonna drill a bunch of holes in the bottom, lay the screen on that, and let the "second" bottom catch all the runoff? Seems like if the bottom is double-wall that would be easy to do.

Anyway I'm as excited as you are to see your baby running. I've had all the same feelings! Good work so far.

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Mech, I believe your root chambers are too small. In a larger chamber, the mist can spead and even out more. You have a ton of sprayers for the volume of chamber, but I understand you need it to get the coverage. In a larger chamber you can use the same amount of sprayers, but theres more air for it to mix around and fan out evenly.

I got the canna from Amazon since I was only getting liter sized bottles to see if it works for me. The shipping to HI was the same as the product, but in the future I listed a link a while back that was about 60$ shipping for 4 5litre jugs, unfortunately they also wanted the same amount for 2 1litra jugs and it just didn't make sense...

Yes, I drilled holes in the first layer of the bottom, and plan to use a DIY window screening kit, but stretch the silkscreen across instead and caulk the screen frame in... BTW The silkscreen tree farmer recommended in Cav's thread (very hard to tell as the details were only mentioned once in the entire thread) was 140 Tpi mono filament silkscreen, and can be bought at Blick's here: http://www.dickblick.com/products/monofilament-polyester-screen-fabric/

ive been told trimming the roots is ok

Mechanibus, those make excellent chambers/reservoirs. Locally they don't even stock them at HD or Lowes, I'm guessing for the obvious reasons.

Neoprene can be bought in bulk sheets, The TurboKloner brand has a star pattern instead of the usual circular pattern in the middle, this is noted by some to reduce the crushing effect on a full size plants stem.

CTS is interchangeable w/ PEX, CPVC and a few other formats, keep that in mind below

So for others TB's connection is

Tank 3/4" NPTM -> Curved PVC 3/4" Female x 3/4" Female <- PVC Reducer Bushing 3/4" x 1/2" Schedule 40 or 80 <- SEATECH MALE STEM - 1/2" CTS X 1/2" NPT <- SEATECH REDUCING UNION - 1/2" CTS X 1/4" OD -> To rest of system as 1/4" PEX

It occurs to me that we're simply being stubborn here and overcomplicating this connection

There are quick connect tank adapters availabe in 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 NPT.

I am going to source an accumulator w/ 1/4 NPT then straight into a 1/4 tank adapter that way it will only take at most two tank adapters on either side.

So far I've sourced the in line filter, pump, pressure switch, solenoid, two way divider, and tee's in 1/4", once I find a suitable tank I should have all the pieces diagrammed fully, and I will post it, since it's finally done. Gonna go blaze, relax, finish the diagram

(btw when I say swivel branch tee, that's simply the name John Guest has on their site for the piece, for all I know DMfit or Seatech, etc use a different name, the important thing is it's a BRANCH TEE)

foresakenlion said:

Mechanibus, those make excellent chambers/reservoirs. Locally they don't even stock them at HD or Lowes, I'm guessing for the obvious reasons.

Neoprene can be bought in bulk sheets, The TurboKloner brand has a star pattern instead of the usual circular pattern in the middle, this is noted by some to reduce the crushing effect on a full size plants stem.

CTS is interchangeable w/ PEX, CPVC and a few other formats, keep that in mind below

So for others TB's connection is

Tank 3/4" NPTM -> Curved PVC 3/4" Female x 3/4" Female <- PVC Reducer Bushing 3/4" x 1/2" Schedule 40 or 80 <- SEATECH MALE STEM - 1/2" CTS X 1/2" NPT <- SEATECH REDUCING UNION - 1/2" CTS X 1/4" OD -> To rest of system as 1/4" PEX

It occurs to me that we're simply being stubborn here and overcomplicating this connection

There are quick connect tank adapters availabe in 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 NPT.

I am going to source an accumulator w/ 1/4 NPT then straight into a 1/4 tank adapter that way it will only take at most two tank adapters on either side.

So far I've sourced the in line filter, pump, pressure switch, solenoid, two way divider, and tee's in 1/4", once I find a suitable tank I should have all the pieces diagrammed fully, and I will post it, since it's finally done. Gonna go blaze, relax, finish the diagram

(btw when I say swivel branch tee, that's simply the name John Guest has on their site for the piece, for all I know DMfit or Seatech, etc use a different name, the important thing is it's a BRANCH TEE)

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All good- except I had no elbow, my accumulator tank came with it welded in. I'd like to see a link to these accumulator connectors. I doubt you'll find a tank with 1/4 connections, perhaps of it is for r.o. - but then likely will not have very high of a pressure rating...

Speaking of which, my tank is rated to 150 psi, and since my pressure switch is 30 psi minimum differnetial between cut-in and cut out, I will have to run he high side @140 psi. That means my switch will kick in at 110psi and I can tune the regulated side to 100psi. When I told the accumulator people I would run it at such high pressures they told me it's service life would be shortened. If you'e gonna do aero, I can't see using less than a 150psi tank- cuz for all the trouble of building a HPA gettup, it's better to be sure to create the finer mist with the higher pressures...

Ahhh I'm working the wee hours building this thing - wanna do a pic update, but it's too dark, have to wait till tomorrow, but she's almost done! Haven't seen Atomizer for a week or so, I hope he is ok... Out of everyone, I really wanted him so see my progress since I tried to model it as much after his advice as possible... tree farmer too, but he only posted here once, and I think I scared him away by saying I was one of his biggest fans...

I didn't know that was welded in, wonder if it's the same on the ST-12. I believe you're right though, I've been looking and RO tanks w/ 100 max psi and 1/4 seems to be the norm. Thermal expansion tanks seem to come w/ max 150 psi and 3/4, some may be different but those are the most common in my browsing.

Seatech has a tap adapter for 3/4 FPT to SF (SpeedFit, be it copper, pex, etc it doesn't matter, they're all called SpeedFit, so I propose we refer to them, at least I will from here on as SF to avoid confusion. When you say SF it has the benefit of ranging all the way from the 1/4 John Guests all the way up to the past the 1" Seatech.

ok, so when you say speedfits I know sort of what you're referring to, although I prefer the brand name designation because it is more detailed. But honestly, it's not worth either posts I or you just wrote-lol... What kind of work do you do, just curious where your interesting way of thinking comes from- perhaps your career will give a clue.

I got my timer hooked up and tossed a solenoid on it for fun... Neato!!! And they have little led lights that go off when the solenoid is open... The solenoid is a bit louder than I'd prefer, but perhaps when filled with fluid will quiet it up, or make it louder? I think I may have to get some 6x6 grey plastic boxes and mount each solenoid in one ouside the chamber behind each mister location. I can fill them with fiberglass and dampen the sound, I figure if one is loud, 8 will be obnoxious every 3 minutes- I wanted to insulate the jg line and solenoids from heat/sunlight anyway- was thinking I could use some of the foam pipe tube insulation between the grey boxes for the tubing/solenoid wires. I got a wiring block so I can hook all the solenoids to a central location on the chamber, and have simply one wire coming from the timer to be distributed to all the solenoids via the block. Also saw some green plastic chicken wire, and since it was cheap, decided to grab a roll and use it to line the interior walls of my chamber to give the roots something to grab onto so they'll not just pile up on the bottom of the chamber on top of the rootscreen. I think I have included almost every idea I have thought of/read about from other's ideas in my setup, so I am feeling like I've given myself the best chance for a good environment. I just hope my skills at using this contraption will quickly advance.

Trichy Bastard said:

I got my timer hooked up and tossed a solenoid on it for fun... Neato!!! And they have little led lights that go off when the solenoid is open... The solenoid is a bit louder than I'd prefer, but perhaps when filled with fluid will quiet it up, or make it louder? I think I may have to get some 6x6 grey plastic boxes and mount each solenoid in one ouside the chamber behind each mister location. I can fill them with fiberglass and dampen the sound, I figure if one is loud, 8 will be obnoxious every 3 minutes-

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Mine changed pitch when it was filled with water but it is still loud. I hope you come up with something simple that I can steal. Then my setup will be almost completely silent.

Trichy Bastard said:

Also saw some green plastic chicken wire, and since it was cheap, decided to grab a roll and use it to line the interior walls of my chamber to give the roots something to grab onto so they'll not just pile up on the bottom of the chamber on top of the rootscreen.

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I thought about some type of root trellis but worried that in my small chambers it would make the mist distribution even worse. Any concerns about encouraging the roots to grow near the misters that they might attack and clog them?

r0m30 said:

Mine changed pitch when it was filled with water but it is still loud. I hope you come up with something simple that I can steal. Then my setup will be almost completely silent.

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Sure, I hope so too

r0m30 said:

I thought about some type of root trellis but worried that in my small chambers it would make the mist distribution even worse. Any concerns about encouraging the roots to grow near the misters that they might attack and clog them?

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Yeah, I plan to cutout a 6-8" circle in the trellis around each mist nozzle and hope that will keep them away. I will prune the roots if need be for any coming too close to the nozzles... In your smaller box the trellis might not be practical... But we'll see how it works in mine, and by how it does, will hopefully let you figure out if it could benefit yours.

My apologies to r0m on one thing, I didn't notice you saying the in-line versions of the xtrol have stainless connections, duly noted.

As for career medical grower.

As to why I use the term, well I was looking at the 2-1/2" Seatech fittings, and they're called speedfit, as is the smaller John Guest branding, But I suppose you're right... there are a few companies like DMfit and Legris that don't use the term...

This wouldn't even be an issue other than trying to label it on the diagram, I want to avoid the maximum confusion as possible.

The more I'm looking, it's looking like you nailed the prettiest solution pretty nicely TB.

One question though, on the Aquatec pressure switches, what is the minimum differental allowed if anyone knows? Hate to ask but they don't really have PDFs out there for these specs and their website is a joke.

foresakenlion said:

My apologies to r0m on one thing, I didn't notice you saying the in-line versions of the xtrol have stainless connections, duly noted.

As for career medical grower.

As to why I use the term, well I was looking at the 2-1/2" Seatech fittings, and they're called speedfit, as is the smaller John Guest branding, But I suppose you're right... there are a few companies like DMfit and Legris that don't use the term...

This wouldn't even be an issue other than trying to label it on the diagram, I want to avoid the maximum confusion as possible.

The more I'm looking, it's looking like you nailed the prettiest solution pretty nicely TB.

One question though, on the Aquatec pressure switches, what is the minimum differental allowed if anyone knows? Hate to ask but they don't really have PDFs out there for these specs and their website is a joke.

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It's probably 40psi, as was my flojet. Plus it's probably not reliable and/or not going to last very long- from what I've read, buying an external one is the way to go in this application. The one I listed was only 30 bucks- so it didn't seem worth trying to use the stock one. Although I will soon report if the one I got is any good

Oh no I wasn't talking about in in-built pressure switch, I specifically mean the Aquatec PSW 380-00, which by default is set to 80, and is an external, Ok so... 80-120, so bare minimum 150 psi tank, so that's back in thermal expansion territory. Got it.

foresakenlion said:

Oh no I wasn't talking about in in-built pressure switch, I specifically mean the Aquatec PSW 380-00, which by default is set to 80, and is an external, Ok so... 80-120, so bare minimum 150 psi tank, so that's back in thermal expansion territory. Got it.

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ok gotcha- yeah, see how it always gets back to ideal tank pressure rating of at least @150psi? Perhaps someone will find a PS with a tighter differential, but another good thing about a higher unregulated pressure is it adds to the amount of nutes the accumulator will hold, so that's another benefit of a higher psi tank, more time between pump cycles

It seems to me the ideal regulated pressure to run is 100psi. Most nozzles say they can make 50 micron mean mist @80-100 psi. The higher the pressure, the faster the flow and smaller the particles out the nozzles. I figure 100 psi ensures smaller mist particles. and then care must be taken not to oversaturate, but that's why we should try to spec out everything with the ideal misting volume calculation Atomizer provided as our goal to achieve.

I don't know if people realize it, but all the components we use, including considering chamber size are to fullfill these requirements: (probably in this order of importance)
1)Complete root mist coverage
2) 50 micron mean mist droplets
3) providing the right amount of moisture (while keeping oxygen readily available to the roots) to achieve root hairs, not too much, and not to little.

Without all of these fulfilled, the likelyhood of roothairs is slim to none. But here is how we achieve the above requirements:
1)Adequate coverage is most important because the roots won't even survive without it. Nozzle spec, nozzle count and placement, and chamber size work to fullfill this.
2)Pressure, nozzles and instant on/off flow via accumulator and close proximity of solenoids to nozzles ensure the correct droplet size and tight control over the mist timing cycle.
3)A high resolution timer and correcly sized chamber work together to make sure the mist is even and doesn't oversaturate, or leave dry areas, while still providing what the plant requires to live.

As you can now see the breakdown, it's obvious the job/importance of each incorporated component and consideration we're talking about here.

Requirement 2 (mist size) is really a subcategory of rule 3 (providing right amount of moisture/while keeping oxygen readily available to the roots), but I broke them down seperately just to show how each of the components works to fulfill it's part of the equation.

Nozzle specs, count and placement help fulfill#1 #2 and #3 an must be considered to work in synchronicity to accomodate all other requirements and need to be in balance with the others.

There is alot of overlap and interconnectedness to the whole package. Once I realized all of this, was my "AHA!" moment, and then it all made sense. It took reading all these threads, and lots of listening to Atomizer till it finally clicked. (Hope I have it right, lol) It all seems so simple to me now, but as I see most newer people trying to grasp aero, they really don't have a clue and always think it's all about mist droplet size. The way I see it, droplet size isn't really a requirement as much as it is a solution to achieving one of the requirements.

Was looking for a nicer solution for that connection came across this

Hex Reducing Bushing, 3/4 x 3/8 In, 316 SS

Grainger Item # 1LUN8
Price (ea.) $5.59
Brand APPROVED VENDOR
Mfr. Model # 36FHB1506C

Hex Bushing, 3/8 x 1/4 In, Threaded, 316 SS

Grainger Item # 2TV82
Price (ea.) $3.36
Brand APPROVED VENDOR
Mfr. Model # 36CHB150600B

"Type 316&#8212;the second most common grade (after 304); for food and surgical stainless steel uses; alloy addition of molybdenum prevents specific forms of corrosion. It is also known as marine grade stainless steel due to its increased resistance to chloride corrosion compared to type 304."

John Guest Elbow Shut Off Valve 1/4 T OD x 1/4 NPTF

Part #PPSV500822W

Depending on where you get them, around $20 dollars, your solution seems less expensive though. anyway food for thought.