Unions Finally Reaching Out

Harrekin said:

You can't raise the living standards of the poor by giving them wage increases, that's stupid.

It causes inflation and really only screws the people with less money.

Think about it, if you stole all the rich people's money and then gave everyone a million dollars, all of a sudden a burger costs $2000...and who has actually gained out of it?

Noone... savings would be wiped out, the banking system would collapse and the dollar would become worthless.

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I beg to differ. You propose wage increases cause inflation. Chicken or egg, cart or horse? I propose inflation causes wage increases. As in not worth a continental. QE 1,2,3,4. Take your pick. And long before our recent recall also. Fractional reserve banking printing fiat money. Printing money with no value, (most created $ is digital and not in circulation), is The definition of inflation. The money supply is inflated, (inflation) by definition. It is the unseen, hidden tax that gouges us all. Sleep on your cash and it loses value quickly. Won't buy what it used to. CPI, is used to bring wage in line with inflation. Although that doesn't work in most wage earners favor either. Infaltion happens, CPI follows.

Dr Kynes said:

see thats a judgement call. anyone who wants to go all hunter/gatherer can do so, nobody is stoppin em.

but trying to force everybody else to join you is criminal.

also, their bow suck. i cant imagine they could kill anything bigger than a groundhog with those things.

my uncle made a better bow for me when i was 9.

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I agree, the bows are pygmy style. Not like a nice Kota Kill-Um custom made Recurve.

abandonconflict said:

We are dancing with fire. Peak oil and global warming both have potential to cause not only population bottleneck, but global warming in particular has huge potential to be an extinction event.

So my question, to which you replied with out acknowledging this, is, what good are the advancements?

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I'm pretty sure I've expounded on this previously. For now, we are limited by our animal natures from real robust advancements in re our social instincts and responses. The moral veneer of civilization is thin and still bears the discomfort of newness, like shoes that almost fit.

I see the material advancements as being our one ticket to taking charge of our evolution into a more civilizable species. Not until we've achieved that (the Great Singularity, polar bear edition: the technical ability to remodel our animal nature in the direction we consciously choose) that do I think your hopes and visions of an anarchic but thriving technical society can be met. Jmo. cn

cannabineer said:

I'm pretty sure I've expounded on this previously. For now, we are limited by our animal natures from real robust advancements in re our social instincts and responses. The moral veneer of civilization is thin and still bears the discomfort of newness, like shoes that almost fit.

I see the material advancements as being our one ticket to taking charge of our evolution into a more civilizable species. Not until we've achieved that (the Great Singularity, polar bear edition: the technical ability to remodel our animal nature in the direction we consciously choose) that do I think your hopes and visions of an anarchic but thriving technical society can be met. Jmo. cn

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These paragraphs contradict eachother in one regard. The newness, the advancements in the prior are the same, and they are both products of a social construct that has taken us as far as it can. This social construct is the very same that is the source of the primal nature to amass power you mentioned in another thread. The reason this social construct can propel us no further is that it is used up, the endless growth and peak oil and world wars demand we change course. We will.

The second paragraph contains a glimmer of hope that I have been diligently trying to spread. be careful, it is contagious.

ArcticGranite said:

I beg to differ. You propose wage increases cause inflation. Chicken or egg, cart or horse? I propose inflation causes wage increases. As in not worth a continental. QE 1,2,3,4. Take your pick. And long before our recent recall also. Fractional reserve banking printing fiat money. Printing money with no value, (most created $ is digital and not in circulation), is The definition of inflation. The money supply is inflated, (inflation) by definition. It is the unseen, hidden tax that gouges us all. Sleep on your cash and it loses value quickly. Won't buy what it used to. CPI, is used to bring wage in line with inflation. Although that doesn't work in most wage earners favor either. Infaltion happens, CPI follows.

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If (according to you) inflation causes wage increases...then wtf are you crying about?

Also, the way you're speaking leads me to say; Ron Paul lost, get over it.

You guys in this thread remind me of a story I once heard.

A clumsy servant always dropped his toast and it would land butter side down, so he was unable to eat it. One day he dropped his toast as usual but to his aastonishment, the toast landed butter side up! The servant was so over joyed, he went yelling, "Mayster! Mayster!" The master came out and asked, "What is it my chile?" So the servant told his master what happened,"Mayster, as you know I constantly drop my toast, and it lands butter side down, so I can't eat it. But today it landed butter side up! Why, mayster?" To which his master replies, "You buttered the wrong side, you shmendrik!"

I am sure this company can afford to pay there workers a bit more with out making a hamburger 10 dollars. http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/how-much-does/how-much-does-mcdonalds-make/

Trader joes is a private company that provides 401k, medical, vacation pay to there employees. They may not pay the best its definitely not bad either. Yes their raise structure has changed since the economy got bad. Used to be 1.00 every 6 months. Now it is .75 every six months, and health ins went up from $60 a month to $70 a month, starting pay is around $12 DOE. But recognising that your employees are important makes a business a success. When a company is willing to cut into some profits to make their employees happy is not only smart, but is good ethics.

Peace
Salt

Harrekin said:

You can't raise the living standards of the poor by giving them wage increases, that's stupid.

It causes inflation and really only screws the people with less money.

Think about it, if you stole all the rich people's money and then gave everyone a million dollars, all of a sudden a burger costs $2000...and who has actually gained out of it?

Noone... savings would be wiped out, the banking system would collapse and the dollar would become worthless.

Click to expand...

I'm at a loss where to begin?
Poor people receiving wage increases is stupid, it doesn't increase their standard of living, uhh, ok! Elevating wage to a living standard doesn't increase their standard of living, it hurts those with less money than the poor. Thought we were talking about the poor.
It causes inflation! The money supply has been inflated how?
If rich peoples money was re-distributed so that everyone was millionaires, (socialize the monetary supply), no one gains? Not even those with less money than the poor! This is interesting.
Financial calamity ensues, the dollars worthless, (newsflash). Keep those poor folk poor dammit. It'll hurt the economy if we don't.

ArcticGranite said:

I'm at a loss where to begin?
Poor people receiving wage increases is stupid, it doesn't increase their standard of living, uhh, ok! Elevating wage to a living standard doesn't increase their standard of living, it hurts those with less money than the poor. Thought we were talking about the poor.
It causes inflation! The money supply has been inflated how?
If rich peoples money was re-distributed so that everyone was millionaires, (socialize the monetary supply), no one gains? Not even those with less money than the poor! This is interesting.
Financial calamity ensues, the dollars worthless, (newsflash). Keep those poor folk poor dammit. It'll hurt the economy if we don't.

Click to expand...

Sarcasm detector going off, or you don't know what your talking about.
Give everyone a million dollars and a million dollars won't buy you a loaf of bread. Dollars are just paper with ink on them, they have no value if no one has faith in them.

abandonconflict said:

These paragraphs contradict eachother in one regard. The newness, the advancements in the prior are the same, and they are both products of a social construct that has taken us as far as it can. This social construct is the very same that is the source of the primal nature to amass power you mentioned in another thread. The reason this social construct can propel us no further is that it is used up, the endless growth and peak oil and world wars demand we change course. We will.

The second paragraph contains a glimmer of hope that I have been diligently trying to spread. be careful, it is contagious.

Click to expand...

I do not think that our social construct is the source of our greed for power. I think that that trait is innate, part of our deepest nature. i see every and all social constructs as attempting to control, to moderate that raw urge among others.
Human societies have banged headfirst into resource limits, typically as famine or drought. The usual result is war of conquest, with one side or the other experiencing a considerable demographic readjustment. We've short-circuited that control mechanism worldwide for almost a century (it is worth noting that most of the casualties of WWII were not on the battlefield but in ovens and ditches in Germany, Russia and temporary Japan) and are heading for some seriously tough times. The failure of pax Americana might well lead to something like a Medieval-type interlude in overall world history, esp. if accompanied by a climate change that will turn the former breadbaskets into dust bowls. Say what you will ... if the global transport net fails, the necessary basis for a nation's welfare will be its ability to produce and distribute its own food and water. cn

NoDrama said:

Sarcasm detector going off, or you don't know what your talking about.
Give everyone a million dollars and a million dollars won't buy you a loaf of bread. Dollars are just paper with ink on them, they have no value if no one has faith in them.

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He's not being sarcastic, I think he's actually that deluded(/stupid)

cannabineer said:

I do not think that our social construct is the source of our greed for power. I think that that trait is innate, part of our deepest nature. i see every and all social constructs as attempting to control, to moderate that raw urge among others.
Human societies have banged headfirst into resource limits, typically as famine or drought. The usual result is war of conquest, with one side or the other experiencing a considerable demographic readjustment. We've short-circuited that control mechanism worldwide for almost a century (it is worth noting that most of the casualties of WWII were not on the battlefield but in ovens and ditches in Germany, Russia and temporary Japan) and are heading for some seriously tough times. The failure of pax Americana might well lead to something like a Medieval-type interlude in overall world history, esp. if accompanied by a climate change that will turn the former breadbaskets into dust bowls. Say what you will ... if the global transport net fails, the necessary basis for a nation's welfare will be its ability to produce and distribute its own food and water. cn

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which would result in...

Anarcho-__________ism and "Libertarian Socialism" (the freshman philosophy major version of "Aloha")

man, the coming anarcho-________ism Golden Age* is gonna be bad ass!

*an Anarcho-____ism Golden Age is indistinguishable from a Dark Age for other systems


Anarcho-____________ism Golden Age, Reality:





The Delusion in the minds of people who say "I'm an Anarchist" while protected by the walls and barricades of civilization:

ArcticGranite said:

I beg to differ. You propose wage increases cause inflation. Chicken or egg, cart or horse? I propose inflation causes wage increases. As in not worth a continental. QE 1,2,3,4. Take your pick. And long before our recent recall also. Fractional reserve banking printing fiat money. Printing money with no value, (most created $ is digital and not in circulation), is The definition of inflation. The money supply is inflated, (inflation) by definition. It is the unseen, hidden tax that gouges us all. Sleep on your cash and it loses value quickly. Won't buy what it used to. CPI, is used to bring wage in line with inflation. Although that doesn't work in most wage earners favor either. Infaltion happens, CPI follows.

Click to expand...

price inflation can be effected by a variety of means, but in the end it always comes down to the same thing:

scarcity of supply amid high demand

raising wages does not increase standards of living, since a man who can spend 30% of his wages on an apartment or house still pays the same 30% even if the number gets bigger.
when the minimum wage in california went up to $8.25 the shitty low rent apartments (even the government run ones) jumped up commensurately.
raising the minimum wage is actually just a dramatic pay cut for everybody who WAS making more than the minimum wage (like all those schlubs making $8 an hour who suddenly became minimum wage earners, effecting a pay cut of $2.75/hour for those poor fucks.)

the minimum wage and the poverty line are political tools used by populist demagogues to gain the support of the least educated, least intelligent and least driven.

if you actually believe labour costs do not affect the costs of operating any business then youre woefully ill-informed.

if paying you cost me an extra $1.75/ hour (putting you at the $10/hour wage level) the cost of everything i sell to my customers must increase to compensate for the increased labour coists, likewise, since $10 is now minimum wage, the people who were making more than that will now demand MORE to stay in their positions, or they will find somebody who will pay them better than minimum wage.

essentially raising wages across the board, as a social policy, without regard to the actual value of the employee, does nothing but move the numbers higher, while maintaining the status quo. (except foreign made goods will seem cheaper in the short term)

cannabineer said:

I do not think that our social construct is the source of our greed for power. I think that that trait is innate, part of our deepest nature.

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Then we do fundamentally disagree.

Just a question then, would you think it natural if you saw a child unwilling to share, if he was full, sated and unable to continue eating, but still had plenty food left to share and in the presence of an emaciated and starving child, begging for the remaining food.

Since the world spends in 8 days what it would cost to feed the world, on military costs, what is it, if not social construct that causes this?

abandonconflict said:

Then we do fundamentally disagree.

Just a question then, would you think it natural if you saw a child unwilling to share, if he was full, sated and unable to continue eating, but still had plenty food left to share and in the presence of an emaciated and starving child, begging for the remaining food.

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I have seen such behavior in kids, with food and especially with playthings. I think that it is natural but wild. It becomes an adult's chore (or in some cultures, an older child's) to teach the kid that that won't do. In the old days it was considered part of everyone's moral education. Nowadays the mushier term "socialization" is used but for the same thing: putting our wild drives into harnbess so that we might work out as creatures in a society/community. Consistent cooperative behavior in humans is learned imo.

Since the world spends in 8 days what it would cost to feed the world, on military costs, what is it, if not social construct that causes this?

Click to expand...

cannabineer said:

I have seen such behavior in kids, with food and especially with playthings. I think that it is natural but wild. It becomes an adult's chore (or in some cultures, an older child's) to teach the kid that that won't do. In the old days it was considered part of everyone's moral education. Nowadays the mushier term "socialization" is used but for the same thing: putting our wild drives into harnbess so that we might work out as creatures in a society/community. Consistent cooperative behavior in humans is learned imo.

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Yeah, we disagree.

abandonconflict said:

Yeah, we disagree.

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Doesn't mean we can't share a pie and a pitcher. cn

cannabineer said:

Doesn't mean we can't share. cn

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Naturally.

abandonconflict said:

Naturally.

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Deftly played! cn