Way too many contradictions in this hobby.

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Somatek

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I don't think it's increasing the yield so much as keeping the plants healthy until they are ready to harvest. Putting them into a death spiral for a couple of weeks while the plant is finishing up its chemistry doesn't seem beneficial.
Plants enter senescence a couple weeks before harvest, not because of nutes being cut a couple weeks from harvest; that's false logic as if the plants were still using nutes they'd affect yield by increasing the brix. The data shows that cutting nutes doesn't affect yield, which doesn't fit your opinion that it keeps them healthier. Until there is a peer reviewed study looking at the subjective preferences with actual data all the link show is that using nutes doesn't affect yield.
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
Plants enter senescence a couple weeks before harvest, not because of nutes being cut a couple weeks from harvest; that's false logic as if the plants were still using nutes they'd affect yield by increasing the brix. The data shows that cutting nutes doesn't affect yield, which doesn't fit your opinion that it keeps them healthier. Until there is a peer reviewed study looking at the subjective preferences with actual data all the link show is that using nutes doesn't affect yield.
Look at a plant that has been flushed and one that has not. The one that has not can go many more weeks. When does the senescence begin exactly?
 

Coldnasty

Well-Known Member
Look at a plant that has been flushed and one that has not. The one that has not can go many more weeks. When does the senescence begin exactly?
Again post a study showing any benefit to “flushing”. How much can 1-2 weeks of water and nutes cost? It makes as much sense as an athlete preparing for a huge event fasting and only drinking water.
lmao
Yeah I agree everyone always says that plants need another 2 weeks. Always another 2 weeks. I ve always found that 9.5 to 10 weeks from flip is a good time for most plants. If you harvest a little bit early or late it's no big deal. Still get great weed imo. I never flush. All I use for nutrients is seaweed concentrate and a bit of calmag for veg then a bloom nutrient during flower alongside a little bit of seaweed. My plants aren't perfect and I do get the odd leaf turning yellow during flower but I find that it really doesn't matter. I got some budrot once which is a real killer so you have to keep an eye out for that
 

Coldnasty

Well-Known Member
Yeah? I haven't seen "fall colors" for about three years now. I also run my plants longer than most.
I also run my plants longer than most, most of the time. What I’ve found is it’s very cultivar dependent. Some plants literally cannibalize themselves at finish no matter what you do. Some plants seem to want to go forever regardless. Just laughing at the blanket statement part, sorry first cup of coffee … first bong hit of the day
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
I also run my plants longer than most, most of the time. What I’ve found is it’s very cultivar dependent. Some plants literally cannibalize themselves at finish no matter what you do. Some plants seem to want to go forever regardless. Just laughing at the blanket statement part, sorry first cup of coffee … first bong hit of the day
Weird. I haven't noticed that at all while pheno hunting for over a year. They do get harder to keep healthy towards the end, but burns and fades aren't the same thing.
 

Somatek

Well-Known Member
Look at a plant that has been flushed and one that has not. The one that has not can go many more weeks. When does the senescence begin exactly?
Then you're flushing too early as you're suppose to cut nutes for the last 2 weeks which is what these studies are referring to, not a hypothetical situation where you cut nutes while the plant is still growing.

Generally senescence is noticeable as plants use less water and the bracts begin to swell, which is when "flushing" typically begins two weeks before harvest.
 

Coldnasty

Well-Known Member
Actually I’m gonna just leave this debate. My last statement on this entire thread is gonna be this.


If you’re growing with bottle nutes as I do and feed the plants as I do, all other things being equal there is a huge difference in the end product. It’s not even debatable at this point imho. If you grow any other way I can’t speak to that, I don’t use organics inside like I do with my gardens outside but I think it’s pretty obvious you’re not flushing the earth or organic grows. Anyone pushing the bottles SHOULD try it for themselves. Just to see…. Other than that it’s not worth arguing over. Do it, or don’t
 

Dorian2

Well-Known Member
This is exaclty what pisses me off. Its not that your wrong, its just that half the people say what your saying and half say that flower starts at 12/12... Come on people we need to get on the same page !!!!! It's a f-ing opinion, not fact as to when flower starts. I say use the start from 12/12 as a timer as its easier than starting the countdown after flowers show ( 2.5 weeks or so) This would avoid much confusion and simplify the language for everyone to understand...

So the way it is now, when someone says they've been in flower for 8 weeks, this means it could be 8-11 weeks from 12/12... Thats really great... You cant tell what someone is saying...
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I will since I'm reading through this thread. I can't agree with your post here because it's assuming that all Cannabis grows are Photo period. I've only grown Auto's for 4 years now, so it's my opinion that the flowering period should start to be counted when the first pistils have shown up in the plant.

I totally agree with the thread title and contradictions though. It was frustrating starting to grow these "new to me" plants when I'd already accrued a couple of decades of growing normal vegetables like the Tomato and pepper plants mentioned. Seemed more than half of what I read about growing Weed contradicted everything I'd been doing with great results. Took me a couple of grows and some help from RIU members to re hone what I'd already been doing because of it.

As an aside, I fell into the same trap with people's "opinions" on guitar, music theory, and practice habits. Although I'd been playing and have been educated by previous teachers both privately and postsecondary in the subjects(s) for decades, the din of the Interwebz somehow pulled me from certain aspects I'd already learned and developed.

The Web is the ultimate gaslighting apparatus, IMO. Trust yourself.
 

DeadHeadX

Well-Known Member
This has been an interesting thread to follow, and it embodies so much of what is true about growing advice and this forum in general (though I’ve only been reading here for a month or so).

Really, what real world experience would make you think that we would all agree on something as varied in it’s possible approaches as growing? Or even the terminology? I’m also a guitar player, though i prefer humbuckers, lol, or really under saddle pups these days as I’m all acoustic. But as a player (I assume based on your handle) you’ll recognize the breadth of seemingly contradictory advice, from how to hold the instrument to the best type of pick material or string type or pup design. I think the metaphor also holds up in that most people aren’t going to know or think about the subtle differences when they‘re simply listening in. These things can matter a lot to the player, I know.

I’m a new grower too. I grew two outdoor plants last summer - one went pretty well and the other struggled with all host of problems, though both produced pretty ok buds in the end. I thought I was doing pretty well till I helped an experienced buddy with his trimming and saw that any one of his several plant’s individual branches had more weed then my entire plant, lol. Important to remember that it’s a hobby and you shouldn’t need to impress anyone but yourself.

The great takeaway for me from last summer‘s grow is that even my imperfectly grown bud was at least as good as the stuff coming from the store. I’m now on my second indoor grow. Just finished two plants in the tent, one was a champ (4 ounces dried or so, nice weed which im happy with, even though I know I can do better. Autos. The other struggled, but still harvested 2z or so.

Question: if you’ve struggled with the same variety for three grows, why not try a different strain? My limited experience and various readings so far suggest that some grow more easily than others. I hesitate to give advice at this stage, but perhaps do a little research for easy to grow strains. Maybe try autos. I was psyched to pull around six ounces (just weighed the dried and curing flowers the other day) in a little over three months (which will easily get me through the next harvest). High quality as far as I’m concerned, and I’m pretty much the only one using it, and it’s working great for me. I’ve got four plants going now and hope to atleast double that harvest total in April or so. Keeping it simple. I’d be happy to share the ones that have grown well for me, a learning gardener with no history of green thumbs. But I know I’m getting better and learning from past mistakes. These threads can get you freaked out over little things like the timing of harvest, but if the buds are fat, stinky and sticky, they’re going to be good, whether or not you miss someone’s definition of the optimum window or not.

I think some of the online/YouTube sources of info are super helpful. Just figure out which ones make sense to you. I have espially enjoyed Mr. Grow It’s podcast. He is well informed and has all variety of guests with a wide range of opinions/approaches, some pretty far out, but I’ve found it interesting and informative to listen in. There’s also a hemp professor from U of Utah. I was never as interested in a college science lecture as I have been watching him.

You mentioned it might be just as economical to simply buy the stuff from the store. I’m sure this equation varies based on consumption habits, but even having invested in a higher end tent kit, I’m close to breaking even after my first grow (cheapest store bought ounces are $150 at local stores, but most stuff is much more than that). No way I would save money in the long run buying the commercial stuff. And again, imo, it’s simply not very good most of the time. All good reasons to keep after getting it right.

Good luck, single coil. Those plants look pretty decent to me so far.
 
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PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Again post a study showing any benefit to “flushing”. How much can 1-2 weeks of water and nutes cost? It makes as much sense as an athlete preparing for a huge event fasting and only drinking water.
If you look at that study, it shows that the flushed plants yielded more, which does make some sense scientifically speaking. When plants are fed lower EC in late flower, they are forced to uptake more water in order to absorb the needed nutrients from the medium. This causes an increase in plant mass, which does also equate to an increase in dry mass, post-production.
 

singlecoiled

Well-Known Member
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I will since I'm reading through this thread. I can't agree with your post here because it's assuming that all Cannabis grows are Photo period. I've only grown Auto's for 4 years now, so it's my opinion that the flowering period should start to be counted when the first pistils have shown up in the plant.

I totally agree with the thread title and contradictions though. It was frustrating starting to grow these "new to me" plants when I'd already accrued a couple of decades of growing normal vegetables like the Tomato and pepper plants mentioned. Seemed more than half of what I read about growing Weed contradicted everything I'd been doing with great results. Took me a couple of grows and some help from RIU members to re hone what I'd already been doing because of it.

As an aside, I fell into the same trap with people's "opinions" on guitar, music theory, and practice habits. Although I'd been playing and have been educated by previous teachers both privately and postsecondary in the subjects(s) for decades, the din of the Interwebz somehow pulled me from certain aspects I'd already learned and developed.

The Web is the ultimate gaslighting apparatus, IMO. Trust yourself.
I DONT PLAY LIKE MR ALEX LIFESON------ (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian)

Cool, to talk to a fellow guitarist, we are everywhere except in todays music ! I hear what your saying though and am starting to think that following the school (following the Bro science croud) is very hit and miss. Not to say that some of that Bro science doesnt work (mollasses as an example) but I really like to dig in and understand why and how things work, not just apply them blindly following directions. I'll keep reading and learning, but I may go in a different direction because their is a lot of confusion out here and the mixed signals have me at a stand still.... examples, bloom or no bloom? Cal-Mag or no cal-mag, Cloudy trics or amber?.... You ask and get wildy varying answers. Hell maybe I'll take a gardening class.

Yep, I guess the flower time thing doesnt cover Auto's, I didnt think of that,, but I guess autoi growers are lucky and there are not multiple definitions of flower time. I'd grow an auto but that Ruderalis has to take the potency down a bit?
 
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singlecoiled

Well-Known Member
This has been an interesting thread to follow, and it embodies so much of what is true about growing advice and this forum in general (though I’ve only been reading here for a month or so).

Really, what real world experience would make you think that we would all agree on something as varied in it’s possible approaches as growing? Or even the terminology? I’m also a guitar player, though i prefer humbuckers, lol, or really under saddle pups these days as I’m all acoustic. But as a player (I assume based on your handle) you’ll recognize the breadth of seemingly contradictory advice, from how to hold the instrument to the best type of pick material or string type or pup design. I think the metaphor also holds up in that most people aren’t going to know or think about the subtle differences when they‘re simply listening in. These things can matter a lot to the player, I know.

I’m a new grower too. I grew two outdoor plants last summer - one went pretty well and the other struggled with all host of problems, though both produced pretty ok buds in the end. I thought I was doing pretty well till I helped an experienced buddy with his trimming and saw that any one of his several plant’s individual branches had more weed then my entire plant, lol. Important to remember that it’s a hobby and you shouldn’t need to impress anyone but yourself.

The great takeaway for me from last summer‘s grow is that even my imperfectly grown bud was at least as good as the stuff coming from the store. I’m now on my second indoor grow. Just finished two plants in the tent, one was a champ (4 ounces dried or so, nice weed which im happy with, even though I know I can do better. Autos. The other struggled, but still harvested 2z or so.

Question: if you’ve struggled with the same variety for three grows, why not try a different strain? My limited experience and various readings so far suggest that some grow more easily than others. I hesitate to give advice at this stage, but perhaps do a little research for easy to grow strains. Maybe try autos. I was psyched to pull around six ounces (just weighed the dried and curing flowers the other day) in a little over three months (which will easily get me through the next harvest). High quality as far as I’m concerned, and I’m pretty much the only one using it, and it’s working great for me. I’ve got four plants going now and hope to atleast double that harvest total in April or so. Keeping it simple. I’d be happy to share the ones that have grown well for me, a learning gardener with no history of green thumbs. But I know I’m getting better and learning from past mistakes. These threads can get you freaked out over little things like the timing of harvest, but if the buds are fat, stinky and sticky, they’re going to be good, whether or not you miss someone’s definition of the optimum window or not.

I think some of the online/YouTube sources of info are super helpful. Just figure out which ones make sense to you. I have espially enjoyed Mr. Grow It’s podcast. He is well informed and has all variety of guests with a wide range of opinions/approaches, some pretty far out, but I’ve found it interesting and informative to listen in. There’s also a hemp professor from U of Utah. I was never as interested in a college science lecture as I have been watching him.

You mentioned it might be just as economical to simply buy the stuff from the store. I’m sure this equation varies based on consumption habits, but even having invested in a higher end tent kit, I’m close to breaking even after my first grow (cheapest store bought ounces are $150 at local stores, but most stuff is much more than that). No way I would save money in the long run buying the commercial stuff. And again, imo, it’s simply not very good most of the time. All good reasons to keep after getting it right.

Good luck, single coil. Those plants look pretty decent to me so far.

I really enjoyed reading this, thanks for taking the time. You make some really good points.


Really, what real world experience would make you think that we would all agree on something as varied in it’s possible approaches as growing? Or even the terminology?

This is really well said, I'll have to let this digest a bit, but I cant argue as its a good point. If you ask a person on this forum, should I water to runnoff (example, lets not did into it---) you will get this type of a response from half the people. " Never Flush, its bad for the plant---you fool" And then you''ll get this answer," Flushing is great, it takes out excess salts--you dumb ass.". Then after youve asked the question you can sit back and watch everyone argue about it like rabid dogs. Its crazy ! So yes, there are different ways to grow, but when asking for advice as a newbie, it can be confusing...

Question: if you’ve struggled with the same variety for three grows, why not try a different strain?

I exagerate slightly and have grown one different strain, Durban Poison. I got two ounces of really good bud off that grow, but things did get rough for me after week 6 flower (my curse) with yellowing of the leaves that seems to be more than normal yellowing late flower. (Senescence). My problem is late flower.

I think some of the online/YouTube sources of info are super helpful

Yes, I use youtube good stuff, but what they say on those channels can be very different from what people say here.

You mentioned it might be just as economical to simply buy the stuff from the store.

I dont smoke a lot, very little less than .5 grams a day. I'm growing in a hidden cabinet (I have a thread in the stealth/cabinet section here--with my current grow) and nobody in my house knows I'm growing. unfortuanatly no big tent or lights for me yet ! But one plant is producing way more weed then I can smoke, its piling up and some of my herbs have been curing over a year !

Last grow, Im smoking now ! Lower pic is my Durban Poison grow. again, way too much yellowing. I think both of these grows can do much better if I get my act together,...

And yes, there is something I like about smoking my own buds. I also smoke dispensery bud and my stuff is ten times better. Hey, if you want something done right do it yourself right? I'll get there.
 

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Dorian2

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I DONT PLAY LIKE MR ALEX LIFESON------ (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian)

Cool, to talk to a fellow guitarist, we are everywhere except in todays music ! I hear what your saying though and am starting to think that following the school (following the Bro science croud) is very hit and miss. Not to say that some of that Bro science doesnt work (mollasses as an example) but I really like to dig in and understand why and how things work, not just apply them blindly following directions. I'll keep reading and learning, but I may go in a different direction because their is a lot of confusion out here and the mixed signals have me at a stand still.... examples, bloom or no bloom? Cal-Mag or no cal-mag, Cloudy trics or amber?.... You ask and get wildy varying answers. Hell maybe I'll take a gardening class.

Yep, I guess the flower time thing doesnt cover Auto's, I didnt think of that,, but I guess autoi growers are lucky and there are not multiple definitions of flower time. I'd grow an auto but that Ruderalis has to take the potency down a bit?
All the weed I've grown, harvested and cured from autos has been pretty decent. I can't compare it to Photo's as I have no experience with them. The 10% ruderalis will change the potency and duration of the effects I'd assume, but considering my own personal smoking habits, it really doesn't make a big difference. Also consider, as has been suggested elsewhere, that strain, genetics, and breeder make a big difference. That really lent credence to what many in the RIU community suggest about getting better genetics. This last summer when I ordered some pepper, oregano, basil and other seeds from a suggested breeder in Quebec, I was amazed at the difference in starting them myself from seed rather than buying the pre grown stuff or seed packs at the local store.

RE: Modes, don't worry about learning that stuff but if you understand the basic concept of how they work with harmony and from where they're derived, you'll quickly become that much better at certain aspects of music, like writing and improve. Especially if you're a lead player. ;)

BTW, your plants look fine to me.
 

singlecoiled

Well-Known Member
Classic ! You say Modes dont matter, I say they are everything. I think this strengthens your early point about "different approaches" that cross many hobbies, skills, interests. Good point.

Now, remember G Dorian is minor and in the key of F Major or D minor. This is key ! Its all a starting point on the major scale.. Too many guitarist dont understand this and if you ask me its a must know....
 

singlecoiled

Well-Known Member
Why is certain individuals have so much invested in what other people do?
I'll help anyone i can but I don't really care too much about your crop idk why you have so much interest in mine? View attachment 5246401View attachment 5246402View attachment 5246403View attachment 5246404
Just before harvest, after flushing.
Not following what you said, but your grow looks great. This is what I'm after, healthy flowers with green leaves. Nice !

When you say flush (I'm seeing that folks use two definitions for flush) are you talking about feeding plain water a week or two before harvest (Definition 1) or are you running twice as much water as soil (Definition 2) as a flush? This is exactly the type of thing many people are not noticing. People are using the same words for different things. Flower time? Could be one of two different things depending on the users viewpoint as to when flowering starts.. Etc..

I guess my point is that it would be helpful if we were all on the same page with our language.------This may not be a bnig deal for seasonsed growers, but it can cause problems for newbies like me.
 
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Dorian2

Well-Known Member
Classic ! You say Modes dont matter, I say they are everything. I think this strengthens your early point about "different approaches" that cross many hobbies, skills, interests. Good point.

Now, remember G Dorian is minor and in the key of F Major or D minor. This is key ! Its all a starting point on the major scale.. Too many guitarist dont understand this and if you ask me its a must know....
Actually, I think they're extremely important and I agree. I mentioned not worrying about them because some folks just want to learn tunes without fussing with specifics. I didn't know where you happen to sit on that subject, so I left it open for interpretation. Particularly with modes of the major, harmonic, and melodic minor scales. I started trying to figure the concept out when I was 17 because I was aiming to get into music school around that time. I'm still constantly refreshing my memory on the subject because it's easy to forget after doing the same thing for 35+ years.
 

singlecoiled

Well-Known Member
Actually, I think they're extremely important. I mentioned not worrying about them because some folks just want to learn tunes without fussing with specifics. I didn't know where you happen to sit on that subject, so I left it open for interpretation. Particularly with modes of the major, harmonic, and melodic minor scales. I started trying to figure the concept out when I was 17 because I was aiming to get into music school around that time. I'm still constantly refreshing my memory on the subject because it's easy to forget after doing the same thing for 35+ years.
Love it man, its really simple stuff but the way music is lined up its a bit "foreign" and odd to learn if that makes sense. The best way to understand modes is simply to play the Major Scale (Whole Step= WS Half Step=HS) ( WS WS HS WS WS WS HS) on a single string. Lets use F as an Example. If you start the F major scale on G and end on G, thats Dorian Minor. (WS HS WS WS WS HS WS WS)... Its that simple. (this is how I try to show it, way too many guitarists dont get this). Go up the F major scale and start on A and end on A, thats Phrygian. Thats all there is to it ! I know you know this stuff, but I'm having fun typing it... too many guitarist poo poo on the major scale but little do they know, its everything in music. (not everything but you get my point) Dont get me started on Pentatonic. Another great tool that too many guitartists poo poo on and act like its for beginners, Guess what, its not! Pentatonic is a great tool used by the best of the best musicians.

Anyway, good stuff man. These are really great examples.
 
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