conor c
Well-Known Member
Yeah cannabis is barely domesticated vs corn etc and yes proper plant breeders think the canna world is a bit funny calling stuff f1 that aint a true f1 etc just for explanation sake rather than being correct
What are the most premium seeds?
- Thread starter gubblebum
- Start date
Dboybudz
Well-Known Member
Green crack or boo
I think the definition of an elite male depends on what you're looking for. For example, if a male is doing all weird sorts of shit, would you breed that to an elite female or would you cull it? I think the answer is obvious that this one gets tossed.
Some other things that I think would be a good breeding male:
- tight internodal spacing
- thick branching
- pest resistant
- disease resistant
- able to produce trichomes
- vigorous growth
- able to handle abuse
- stability (i.e., it does not automatically flower in veg but only once lights switch to 12/12)
- favorable terpenes (obviously subjective)
Then pollinate the elite female(s) with that male and see what seeds she throws from that male and what the germination rates are and growing characteristics of those seeds.
Flower the females and see if the buds are worth a shit. If it's not better in some way than the elite female(s) that were pollinated by that male, then it's probably best to not continue the line.
So yes, of course you smoke the buds that came from the seeds that the elite female had been pollinated from the elite male.
Observe & Report
Well-Known Member
The thing is, nobody picks males by testing progeny that way because it takes way too much time and space. By the time you pick a male the market has moved on and its genetics aren''t nearly as valuable as they were when you started. That's why reg breeders rely on irrelevant traits that can be directly observed in males, like the ones in your list. Then once they find a male that seems to be good they stick with it. Look at Bodhi chucking the same three males for ten years and remember Subcool?
Some breeders reverse males which can give you a better idea of what kind of terp traits the male is carrying. It's not that popular with reg breeders though, just ones that do both.
All of the objections to fems seem to originate from ignorant stoners, not a bit of science to back it up.
I came to the same conclusion as DanKiller a while back, fems are better in every way.
There's a lot of people mashing together clones they got at the store or Strainly, you want to avoid that stuff.
Expensive genetics are only worth it if they are real and you own a shop where custies keep coming in asking for them.
I didn't object to preferring fems, but to say everything in my list is irrelevant is akin to suggesting that a man with terrible genetics is irrelevant to his offspring so long as the woman has stellar genetics.
I buy the majority of seeds from a breeder who has two males that he spent a long time searching for. Both his fems and regs work for me, but I prefer his fems so I don't have to sex test but if that cross only comes in regs, I'll grow those out.
Observe & Report
Well-Known Member
Growers are interested in female flower yield (includes flower time and vigor,) female flower potency, female flower terps, female flower colors and "bag appeal." Some of the male traits you listed are relevant to female progeny but are so far down the list as to be irrelevant to growers looking to acquire genetics. That's party of why the vast majority of gear is sold with no more information than the names of the parents and the flowering time (frequently just estimated too!) Stem rubs and frosty balls have no demonstrated connection to female progeny quality, they're an example of the streetlight effect.
DanKiller
Well-Known Member
No, it just means that in terms of smoke, which is what we are looking for at the end, if you have a stellar fem, it's best to self it or reverse it to another killer fem in order to have a better chance of getting quality smoke.
All those definitions you have for a "killer" male, still don't offer us any clue if the smoke will be good or better.
I'm not saying it's not important for other stuff, but when people ask about premium seeds they often refer to the final smokable product.
In that case and no other, fems (from elite clones) have a better chance as they come from, you guessed it, elite genetics and traits.
When we say elite genetics, again I'm referring to the smoke, not growing traits.
DanKiller
Well-Known Member
Also I don't have anything against regs, most of my seeds are regs because most genetics are not available as s1 or fem cross (guess why ?)
And I've ran hundreds of regs and hundreds of fems, in the old days fems were wayyy ahead of regs in terms of hitting a good product simply cuz they came from legit killer clones
Today no one has the clones he claims he have, so hunting hundreds of seeds is required.
If you do run up on a breeder that you smoked the same clone he use to make seeds from and it was killer, buy his fems, you have a better chance of hitting then the same regs with that clone and unknown male.
And I've ran hundreds of regs and hundreds of fems, in the old days fems were wayyy ahead of regs in terms of hitting a good product simply cuz they came from legit killer clones
Today no one has the clones he claims he have, so hunting hundreds of seeds is required.
If you do run up on a breeder that you smoked the same clone he use to make seeds from and it was killer, buy his fems, you have a better chance of hitting then the same regs with that clone and unknown male.
skuba
Well-Known Member
It’s my understanding that the only way to know if a male is good or not is by growing the progeny. Everyone gets excited over stem rubs, stem rubs really don’t mean anything in relation to the finished product. The only modern breeder I know of that grows and samples the progeny from different males before releasing seeds is Archive. I’m sure there are plenty more, if anyone else can chime in
DanKiller
Well-Known Member
Yes, growing the generations and smoking them.
But even then, to us forum dwellers and outside of the USA growers, how can we even know if the breeders actually test or stand behind what they say ?
The proof as always is in the seed itself.
I ran People under the stairs, clearwater, csi humboldt, big buddha, in house, some strainly cheap home breed stuff (to be honest was better then all the brand names so far), 99% trash seeds that are no close to even keepers.
I'm on day F40 of Terple by in house, looks amazing but I wouldn't smoke it
And it came from a fem pack, just goes to show you that even if you have a better chance in reality that don't mean shit lol, also I don't believe in house has the original elite clones of the parents of Terple but that's a story for a different time.
I'm going to pop like 4 Sin City packs soon, something like 60 regs, also bought Truecanna beans, all regs (yeah yeah I'm a sucker for certain genetics) so I'm not dismissing regs at all, you could have a gem in there too, just a lot more to sift through.
But even then, to us forum dwellers and outside of the USA growers, how can we even know if the breeders actually test or stand behind what they say ?
The proof as always is in the seed itself.
I ran People under the stairs, clearwater, csi humboldt, big buddha, in house, some strainly cheap home breed stuff (to be honest was better then all the brand names so far), 99% trash seeds that are no close to even keepers.
I'm on day F40 of Terple by in house, looks amazing but I wouldn't smoke it
And it came from a fem pack, just goes to show you that even if you have a better chance in reality that don't mean shit lol, also I don't believe in house has the original elite clones of the parents of Terple but that's a story for a different time.
I'm going to pop like 4 Sin City packs soon, something like 60 regs, also bought Truecanna beans, all regs (yeah yeah I'm a sucker for certain genetics) so I'm not dismissing regs at all, you could have a gem in there too, just a lot more to sift through.
GWilliamsCannabis
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you said; however the hatred of Fem seeds was because when they first came out; they weren't always stable....lots of males still occurred in the beginning stages....but also from ppl who want to breed themselves and want males of certain genes for breeding purposes.
I don't want males to go sell seeds.
I want males to breed strains for myself and my friends to smoke; unique shit that nobody else has smoked.
And because I can't keep clones at the moment; so I'd like to just make F2s F3s and so forth so I can continue growing strains I like.
Back in the day; we didn't know you could reverse a plant or S1 a plant. So if there were no males released; we viewed it as breeders trying to monopolize against the homegrower.
Luckily; growing techniques and knowledge has advanced and Fem seeds are 100% acceptable now and convenient knowing you'll have females nearly 100% of the time.
MichiganGrows44
Active Member
i sometimes miss Mexican brick weed. Reminds me of high school driving back roads burning one after the other and just frickin laughing and eating. I can't be the only one that misses the good old days. Red eyes dry mouth.
Grojak
Well-Known Member
Marketing and reputation sells.
If I made a Chem 91 x Bubblegum (using Serious Seeds),. I’d struggle Tito sell $40 for 15 with pics of the parents and test runs documenting the strain.. . A “premium” company, using the exact same parents, wouldn’t need to show any photos or test grows and give it a name like Bubble Gump Shrimp Company and move a ton of packs at $100-150 for 10. Nothing different but a reputation/name.
If I made a Chem 91 x Bubblegum (using Serious Seeds),. I’d struggle Tito sell $40 for 15 with pics of the parents and test runs documenting the strain.. . A “premium” company, using the exact same parents, wouldn’t need to show any photos or test grows and give it a name like Bubble Gump Shrimp Company and move a ton of packs at $100-150 for 10. Nothing different but a reputation/name.
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Sade
Well-Known Member
Fuck no. Since legalization my paranoia and looking out for cops are a thing of the past.
Sade
Well-Known Member
In order to properly phenotype hunt and create a homozygous strain that is award winner and stands out from the 1000 other hybrids is you have to be phenotype hunting at the very least 100 plants but Leo stone (aficionado estates genetics) and Nat (Humboldt seed company) both agree breeding industry is a mess full improperly trained breeders with too much pride to get professional education. Unfortunately trying to breed especially by just using grow tent small grows just ain't going to work well if and would take almost a decade or little less to creat a quality strain that becomes homozygous and stable producing same exact phenotype every single grow.
DanKiller
Well-Known Member
That's because most of the seed makers don't start from the elite clone they claim.
If you start from elite fem, you already short the breeding time in half, as most of what you looking for is already in the genetics you are growing.
Now it's just a matter of locking the traits for a 2-3 more generations so the seeds will come out 75% same as the parent.
Not so hard, and will take probably a year.
But you will have stable S3 S4 or even F1 if you have 2 elite fems to work on.
If you start with a male, it's pure luck if you hit, and you better hope the mom was killer.
Breeders have no shame today, buying a pack, growing 10 seeds, choosing the best (most of the time it's not even near the elite these seeds came from)
Make s1, and sell those for 150+ for pack ?
You must be delusional.
Also they don't take into consideration the effort, risk, time, money that people put into their shit seeds.
Like really bro ? If I grow a pack from you and spend 4 months, if get nothing you better hope you are not near me as I would def fuck you up
We are old heads, this shit don't fly with us
If you put in the work, a 6 seed pack should contain at least 3-4 keepers maybe even one that's reaching elite status.
If you are a breeder and you grow your gear and don't get anything good within 10 seeds, you have no room in this game, start over.
New growers and young people have to realize one important fact, in 2000-2010 almost every seed was a winner, I don't remember putting a seed in the dirt at that time and not having it turned out killer.
So please, all you wicked breeders with a sense of making money out of poor people's efforts and time, go back to your mama cave.
If you start from elite fem, you already short the breeding time in half, as most of what you looking for is already in the genetics you are growing.
Now it's just a matter of locking the traits for a 2-3 more generations so the seeds will come out 75% same as the parent.
Not so hard, and will take probably a year.
But you will have stable S3 S4 or even F1 if you have 2 elite fems to work on.
If you start with a male, it's pure luck if you hit, and you better hope the mom was killer.
Breeders have no shame today, buying a pack, growing 10 seeds, choosing the best (most of the time it's not even near the elite these seeds came from)
Make s1, and sell those for 150+ for pack ?
You must be delusional.
Also they don't take into consideration the effort, risk, time, money that people put into their shit seeds.
Like really bro ? If I grow a pack from you and spend 4 months, if get nothing you better hope you are not near me as I would def fuck you up
We are old heads, this shit don't fly with us
If you put in the work, a 6 seed pack should contain at least 3-4 keepers maybe even one that's reaching elite status.
If you are a breeder and you grow your gear and don't get anything good within 10 seeds, you have no room in this game, start over.
New growers and young people have to realize one important fact, in 2000-2010 almost every seed was a winner, I don't remember putting a seed in the dirt at that time and not having it turned out killer.
So please, all you wicked breeders with a sense of making money out of poor people's efforts and time, go back to your mama cave.
the best indeed, but we can’t find them any more in Europe ..
Excellent seeds, I grew “Wet Betty” and “Grease monkey” very good strains, you won’t be disappointed
Thanks for your reply I already got a bag of apes in space and I’ll get another 4 different ones…I’ll report back with the results
Thanks again