Whats in the healthcare bill?

jrh72582

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
MANDATORY healthcare? No thank you. Any time a government takes a choice away from it's "subjects" it is not protecting or advancing liberty, it is enslaving. I won't be participating. Fuck them.
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Yeah - you tell 'em. Damn health care. Damn government trying to care for the health of the poor. Who in the hell do they think they are?!?!
 
doobnVA

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
I think it's important to realize that there is a very real problem with the health care system in our country. In defense of our Congress (not the individuals that make up the body of congress, but the concept of that body) they have some rather large obstacles to circumvent. The underlying objective is to make health care more readily available for those who want it or need it (in theory...but I'm sure we can all figure out what the real motivating factor is). The biggest problem with this right now (aside from insurance company policies on "pre-existing conditions") is cost. Since it's impossible for Congress or anyone else to regulate those prohibitive costs directly, it appears that they've done the "next best thing". Now, anyone who lives in the US should know what the "next best thing" usually is, and that brings us to where we are now: Facing the complete annihilation of what we've come to think of as the "Health Care System", which includes insurance companies, doctor's offices and hospitals, local Health Departments and basically any government-run agency with an interest in health or welfare. Why would our government want this to happen? Well, there's money in it for them, of course! They'll tell us that this legislation won't destroy our current health care system when in fact, that's what the intention was all along. If "private" medicine, so to speak, is forced out of business...Well, then we have no choice but to succumb to a FULLY nationalized health care system because there won't be any alternatives!

I'm not entirely sure which is worse; the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies running the medicine show, or having the government in charge of my health care.

They're both kind of scary, don't you think?
 
Antidisestablishmentarian

Antidisestablishmentarian

Well-Known Member
Health care is already available to all.

If the poor are dropping dead in the street(which is not happening at some alarming rate), then they(the poor) are idiots.

They can go to a hospital and receive medical care. Yes, even with no money.

Or they can take advantage of INSURANCE already available to them(Medicare, etc...).

This isn't about the care, its about the insurance.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
jrh72582 said:
Yeah - you tell 'em. Damn health care. Damn government trying to care for the health of the poor. Who in the hell do they think they are?!?!
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Is this the part where you call my human compassion into question?

Which part of your life aren't you willing to give up to the gvernment?

Get a napkin, because you'll surely have a kool aid mustache if you think mandatory natonal health care has a happy ending.
 
FlyLikeAnEagle

FlyLikeAnEagle

Well-Known Member
Antidisestablishmentarian said:
Health care is already available to all.

If the poor are dropping dead in the street(which is not happening at some alarming rate), then they(the poor) are idiots.

They can go to a hospital and receive medical care. Yes, even with no money.

Or they can take advantage of INSURANCE already available to them(Medicare, etc...).

This isn't about the care, its about the insurance.
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Ignorance at its finest.
 
jrh72582

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Is this the part where you call my human compassion into question?

Which part of your life aren't you willing to give up to the gvernment?

Get a napkin, because you'll surely have a kool aid mustache if you think mandatory natonal health care has a happy ending.
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I've been around the world many times my friend and can tell you both as a witness and a patient abroad that the systems work. The EU system is perhaps the finest - it's not limited by state, highly organized, and efficient. Examine the facts - life spans, death rates, disease rates, etc - and eradicate the myths - long lines, no specialization, low wages - and then look at the issue. What is there not to like about it? Mandatory taxes paying for it? Our taxes pay for all kinds of useless shit (war, expensive toilet seats) - at least health care will help people.
 
what... huh?

what... huh?

Active Member
War helps people. That is the idea right? Saving our people?

There is a difference between offering me a room and forcing me into a strange room. A pretty big difference.

Do you know why the EU has decent healthcare? Because of us. Where the hell do you think the MRI came from? 4D Ultrasound? Laser surgery? Nuclear medicine? We are unparalelled in our contributions to medical technology. Do you think we are just smarter than everybody else? What on else could it be? It must be the fluoride in the water... because the only other difference between us and the rest of the world... IS THAT IT IS A CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE!

Pharmaceutical companies are evil, and should be restructured. The drug patent rules need to change radically. There is an ethical problem when you introduce a fiduciary responsibility where research is concerned. There is no money in curing illnesses, only treating symptoms... it is bad business to research cures. In this situation it is in the public's best interest, and congress is well empowered to, interfere in private enterprise. This is why that is important.

So for what you would point to as failures, I wonder what the net gain of life our capitalist incentives have brought the world.


Remember polio? That was us too.
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
what... huh? said:
War helps people. That is the idea right? Saving our people?

There is a difference between offering me a room and forcing me into a strange room. A pretty big difference.

Do you know why the EU has decent healthcare? Because of us. Where the hell do you think the MRI came from? 4D Ultrasound? Laser surgery? Nuclear medicine? We are unparalelled in our contributions to medical technology. Do you think we are just smarter than everybody else? What on else could it be? It must be the fluoride in the water... because the only other difference between us and the rest of the world... IS THAT IT IS A CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE!

Pharmaceutical companies are evil, and should be restructured. The drug patent rules need to change radically. There is an ethical problem when you introduce a fiduciary responsibility where research is concerned. There is no money in curing illnesses, only treating symptoms... it is bad business to research cures. In this situation it is in the public's best interest, and congress is well empowered to, interfere in private enterprise. This is why that is important.

So for what you would point to as failures, I wonder what the net gain of life our capitalist incentives have brought the world.


Remember polio? That was us too.
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+rep for you man, nice post couldn't have said it better.
 
jrh72582

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
what... huh? said:
War helps people. That is the idea right? Saving our people?

There is a difference between offering me a room and forcing me into a strange room. A pretty big difference.

Do you know why the EU has decent healthcare? Because of us. Where the hell do you think the MRI came from? 4D Ultrasound? Laser surgery? Nuclear medicine? We are unparalelled in our contributions to medical technology. Do you think we are just smarter than everybody else? What on else could it be? It must be the fluoride in the water... because the only other difference between us and the rest of the world... IS THAT IT IS A CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE!

Pharmaceutical companies are evil, and should be restructured. The drug patent rules need to change radically. There is an ethical problem when you introduce a fiduciary responsibility where research is concerned. There is no money in curing illnesses, only treating symptoms... it is bad business to research cures. In this situation it is in the public's best interest, and congress is well empowered to, interfere in private enterprise. This is why that is important.

So for what you would point to as failures, I wonder what the net gain of life our capitalist incentives have brought the world.


Remember polio? That was us too.
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EU's healthcare wasn't decent - it was great! And competition to produce new technology will still thrive as long as we retain private insurance and health care, which we will. We'll have both. If the government tries to absorb private health care - different story.

You are right about the pharmaceutical companies being evil. I suffered a major incident in the EU and the only difference I could tell between their system and ours (me being a carrier of great insurance) was the availabilty of drugs. In Italy, they rarely proscribe medicine unless absolutely needed. Here, doctors proscribe medicine so profusely, it's sickening - all for kickbacks. Hell, we have traceable amounts of antidepressants in public water because people are so pumped with this shit. Good for the EU. Don't let privatized, greedy, unregulated companies make profit at the expense of citizens. However, it's a fine line. I want some government control and regulation while retaining the benefits of private competition and enterprise. That's what we're seeking.
 
jfgordon1

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
nice post WH.

I don't know how anyone could favor handing over 1/6 of the economy to the government. It's PREPOSTEROUS !
 
jrh72582

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
jfgordon1 said:
nice post WH.

I don't know how anyone could favor handing over 1/6 of the economy to the government. It's PREPOSTEROUS !
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Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves? At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena. WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.
 
Operation 420

Operation 420

Well-Known Member
jrh72582 said:
Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves?

Oh you mean the same guys that run the "Federal" Reserve and our country? Same people jrh. Oh you were talking about the private Insurance companies, hehe, common mistake

At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena. WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.
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I agree with regulation, but not "control". They are allowed to conduct business, but not rob people blind. Regulating the hospitals too, 10+ dollars for an aspirin is ridiculous. Frivolous law suits need to be addressed as well.
 
jfgordon1

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
Britain rations cortisone treatments for back pain

posted at 11:38 am on August 3, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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Not too long ago, a man in the UK pulled 13 of his own teeth rather than live in agony because the National Health Service didn’t have a dentist to treat his chronic teeth problems. His fellow Brits won’t have the option of using a pliers on their backs after the most recent rationing decision by the NHS. In order to save £33 million ($55.6 million), the British single-payer system will no longer give cortisone shots for nonspecific back pain despite the effectiveness of the treatment:
The Government’s drug rationing watchdog says “therapeutic” injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.
Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy. …
The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.
​
Recall when Barack Obama promised that ObamaCare in the US would use the “best practices” of the medical industry, as determined by government panels, in order to dictate treatments and save costs? The actual experts in British medical circles warn that this will wind up increasing costs. Instead of offering new-age treatments rather than effective methods of pain control, the decision will push many to get surgery for relief instead:
But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.
​
This demonstrates both the pretense and the folly of allowing the government to make these decisions in a noncompetitive environment, or really at all. The NICE, the supposed expert panel tasked with “clinical excellence,” isn’t concerned about the excellence of care at all. It’s concerned about spending money. Its priority is to reduce its budget, not to ensure that patients have effective pain relief. Cortison shots cost more than acupuncture and osteopathy, so they want to cut back by 95% on cortisone shots regardless of whether the shots are effective or the replacement treatments are not.
And what will that produce? More back surgeries, which cost a lot more than cortisone shots. That’s NICE.
ObamaCare supporters will argue that insurance companies make the same kinds of determinations about coverage of treatments. That’s certainly true, but they also have to compete with each other for business. They will lose customers if they make too many capricious and arbitrary decisions based solely on cost rather than effectiveness of treatment as those customers find insurers who provide better service. With no competition, as in the UK, the system never has to account for its caprice or its heartlessness.
Now, only the rich will get cortisone shots in the UK, because only they have the resources to get private medical care. The rest of the nation, which pays through the nose for the NHS, will get locked into those NICE decisions that focus on the bottom line rather than proper treatment. That’s what ObamaCare will deliver as well.
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http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/03/britain-rations-cortisone-treatments-for-back-pain/
 
jfgordon1

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
jrh72582 said:
Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves
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Income tax? = government

At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena.
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Ahh ok... so we the people have control with socialism. Yet, we the people don't have control with capitalism.

WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.
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Don't want an insurance monopoly.
 
what... huh?

what... huh?

Active Member
jrh72582 said:
EU's healthcare wasn't decent - it was great! And competition to produce new technology will still thrive as long as we retain private insurance and health care, which we will. We'll have both. If the government tries to absorb private health care - different story.
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It's decent.

Private health care is going to skyrocket because there are less people paying into the system. Free market requires a free market.
 
what... huh?

what... huh?

Active Member
Yeah... timed out, backed up and re-sent...


The problem is this... like it or not, health care is a limited commodity.

Do you envision the hospitals and doctors offices in this country are sitting around... playing video games? Are there a bunch of out of work doctors because there is not enough work?

No... the system works to capacity... all the time. You give everybody free health care, and there is not an increase in professionals capable of handling health care, and you start waiting. Then you know what happens? Nurses are given more duties... and handle more procedures... and more medical diagnosis... and suddenly doctors are just reviewing and approving non MD's medical work. While our taxes creep over 50%.

Nightmare.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
jrh72582 said:
I've been around the world many times my friend and can tell you both as a witness and a patient abroad that the systems work. The EU system is perhaps the finest - it's not limited by state, highly organized, and efficient. Examine the facts - life spans, death rates, disease rates, etc - and eradicate the myths - long lines, no specialization, low wages - and then look at the issue. What is there not to like about it? Mandatory taxes paying for it? Our taxes pay for all kinds of useless shit (war, expensive toilet seats) - at least health care will help people.
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What is there not to like about it?
It expands government, it wastes money and it forces people into a mandatory system.

Our taxes pay for useless shit? No kidding. I agree.

At least health care wll help people? Then why is it mandatory if it's so good? Are people incapable of making their own decisons without being forced by government? What is the purpose of government?
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
jrh72582 said:
Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves? At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena. WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.
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In 1985 I broke my neck in an accident. I wasn't covered by insurance because of a "preexisting condition.' The surgeon agreed to take payments over a time that was comfortable for me. The hospital agreed to take a very minimum amount down with payments over a year. I met my obligations on time. My surgeon extended my life.

Are these the "greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves" you alluded to?

Vi
 
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