Whats in the healthcare bill?

[jrh72582]

MANDATORY healthcare? No thank you. Any time a government takes a choice away from it's "subjects" it is not protecting or advancing liberty, it is enslaving. I won't be participating. Fuck them.

Yeah - you tell 'em. Damn health care. Damn government trying to care for the health of the poor. Who in the hell do they think they are?!?!

 

[doobnVA]

I think it's important to realize that there is a very real problem with the health care system in our country. In defense of our Congress (not the individuals that make up the body of congress, but the concept of that body) they have some rather large obstacles to circumvent. The underlying objective is to make health care more readily available for those who want it or need it (in theory...but I'm sure we can all figure out what the real motivating factor is). The biggest problem with this right now (aside from insurance company policies on "pre-existing conditions") is cost. Since it's impossible for Congress or anyone else to regulate those prohibitive costs directly, it appears that they've done the "next best thing". Now, anyone who lives in the US should know what the "next best thing" usually is, and that brings us to where we are now: Facing the complete annihilation of what we've come to think of as the "Health Care System", which includes insurance companies, doctor's offices and hospitals, local Health Departments and basically any government-run agency with an interest in health or welfare. Why would our government want this to happen? Well, there's money in it for them, of course! They'll tell us that this legislation won't destroy our current health care system when in fact, that's what the intention was all along. If "private" medicine, so to speak, is forced out of business...Well, then we have no choice but to succumb to a FULLY nationalized health care system because there won't be any alternatives!

I'm not entirely sure which is worse; the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies running the medicine show, or having the government in charge of my health care.

They're both kind of scary, don't you think?

 

[Antidisestablishmentarian]

Health care is already available to all.

If the poor are dropping dead in the street(which is not happening at some alarming rate), then they(the poor) are idiots.

They can go to a hospital and receive medical care. Yes, even with no money.

Or they can take advantage of INSURANCE already available to them(Medicare, etc...).

This isn't about the care, its about the insurance.

 

[Rob Roy]

Yeah - you tell 'em. Damn health care. Damn government trying to care for the health of the poor. Who in the hell do they think they are?!?!

Is this the part where you call my human compassion into question?

Which part of your life aren't you willing to give up to the gvernment?

Get a napkin, because you'll surely have a kool aid mustache if you think mandatory natonal health care has a happy ending.

 

[FlyLikeAnEagle]

Health care is already available to all.

If the poor are dropping dead in the street(which is not happening at some alarming rate), then they(the poor) are idiots.

They can go to a hospital and receive medical care. Yes, even with no money.

Or they can take advantage of INSURANCE already available to them(Medicare, etc...).

This isn't about the care, its about the insurance.

Ignorance at its finest.

 

[jrh72582]

Is this the part where you call my human compassion into question?

Which part of your life aren't you willing to give up to the gvernment?

Get a napkin, because you'll surely have a kool aid mustache if you think mandatory natonal health care has a happy ending.

I've been around the world many times my friend and can tell you both as a witness and a patient abroad that the systems work. The EU system is perhaps the finest - it's not limited by state, highly organized, and efficient. Examine the facts - life spans, death rates, disease rates, etc - and eradicate the myths - long lines, no specialization, low wages - and then look at the issue. What is there not to like about it? Mandatory taxes paying for it? Our taxes pay for all kinds of useless shit (war, expensive toilet seats) - at least health care will help people.

 

[what... huh?]

War helps people. That is the idea right? Saving our people?

There is a difference between offering me a room and forcing me into a strange room. A pretty big difference.

Do you know why the EU has decent healthcare? Because of us. Where the hell do you think the MRI came from? 4D Ultrasound? Laser surgery? Nuclear medicine? We are unparalelled in our contributions to medical technology. Do you think we are just smarter than everybody else? What on else could it be? It must be the fluoride in the water... because the only other difference between us and the rest of the world... IS THAT IT IS A CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE!

Pharmaceutical companies are evil, and should be restructured. The drug patent rules need to change radically. There is an ethical problem when you introduce a fiduciary responsibility where research is concerned. There is no money in curing illnesses, only treating symptoms... it is bad business to research cures. In this situation it is in the public's best interest, and congress is well empowered to, interfere in private enterprise. This is why that is important.

So for what you would point to as failures, I wonder what the net gain of life our capitalist incentives have brought the world.


Remember polio? That was us too.

 

[NoDrama]

War helps people. That is the idea right? Saving our people?

There is a difference between offering me a room and forcing me into a strange room. A pretty big difference.

Do you know why the EU has decent healthcare? Because of us. Where the hell do you think the MRI came from? 4D Ultrasound? Laser surgery? Nuclear medicine? We are unparalelled in our contributions to medical technology. Do you think we are just smarter than everybody else? What on else could it be? It must be the fluoride in the water... because the only other difference between us and the rest of the world... IS THAT IT IS A CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE!

Pharmaceutical companies are evil, and should be restructured. The drug patent rules need to change radically. There is an ethical problem when you introduce a fiduciary responsibility where research is concerned. There is no money in curing illnesses, only treating symptoms... it is bad business to research cures. In this situation it is in the public's best interest, and congress is well empowered to, interfere in private enterprise. This is why that is important.

So for what you would point to as failures, I wonder what the net gain of life our capitalist incentives have brought the world.


Remember polio? That was us too.

+rep for you man, nice post couldn't have said it better.

 

[jrh72582]

War helps people. That is the idea right? Saving our people?

There is a difference between offering me a room and forcing me into a strange room. A pretty big difference.

Do you know why the EU has decent healthcare? Because of us. Where the hell do you think the MRI came from? 4D Ultrasound? Laser surgery? Nuclear medicine? We are unparalelled in our contributions to medical technology. Do you think we are just smarter than everybody else? What on else could it be? It must be the fluoride in the water... because the only other difference between us and the rest of the world... IS THAT IT IS A CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE!

Pharmaceutical companies are evil, and should be restructured. The drug patent rules need to change radically. There is an ethical problem when you introduce a fiduciary responsibility where research is concerned. There is no money in curing illnesses, only treating symptoms... it is bad business to research cures. In this situation it is in the public's best interest, and congress is well empowered to, interfere in private enterprise. This is why that is important.

So for what you would point to as failures, I wonder what the net gain of life our capitalist incentives have brought the world.


Remember polio? That was us too.

EU's healthcare wasn't decent - it was great! And competition to produce new technology will still thrive as long as we retain private insurance and health care, which we will. We'll have both. If the government tries to absorb private health care - different story.

You are right about the pharmaceutical companies being evil. I suffered a major incident in the EU and the only difference I could tell between their system and ours (me being a carrier of great insurance) was the availabilty of drugs. In Italy, they rarely proscribe medicine unless absolutely needed. Here, doctors proscribe medicine so profusely, it's sickening - all for kickbacks. Hell, we have traceable amounts of antidepressants in public water because people are so pumped with this shit. Good for the EU. Don't let privatized, greedy, unregulated companies make profit at the expense of citizens. However, it's a fine line. I want some government control and regulation while retaining the benefits of private competition and enterprise. That's what we're seeking.

 

[jfgordon1]

nice post WH.

I don't know how anyone could favor handing over 1/6 of the economy to the government. It's PREPOSTEROUS !

 

[jrh72582]

nice post WH.

I don't know how anyone could favor handing over 1/6 of the economy to the government. It's PREPOSTEROUS !

Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves? At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena. WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.

 

[Operation 420]

Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves?

Oh you mean the same guys that run the "Federal" Reserve and our country? Same people jrh. Oh you were talking about the private Insurance companies, hehe, common mistake

At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena. WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.

I agree with regulation, but not "control". They are allowed to conduct business, but not rob people blind. Regulating the hospitals too, 10+ dollars for an aspirin is ridiculous. Frivolous law suits need to be addressed as well.

 

[jfgordon1]

Britain rations cortisone treatments for back pain

posted at 11:38 am on August 3, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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Not too long ago, a man in the UK pulled 13 of his own teeth rather than live in agony because the National Health Service didn’t have a dentist to treat his chronic teeth problems. His fellow Brits won’t have the option of using a pliers on their backs after the most recent rationing decision by the NHS. In order to save £33 million ($55.6 million), the British single-payer system will no longer give cortisone shots for nonspecific back pain despite the effectiveness of the treatment:

The Government’s drug rationing watchdog says “therapeutic” injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.
Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy. …
The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.
​

Recall when Barack Obama promised that ObamaCare in the US would use the “best practices” of the medical industry, as determined by government panels, in order to dictate treatments and save costs? The actual experts in British medical circles warn that this will wind up increasing costs. Instead of offering new-age treatments rather than effective methods of pain control, the decision will push many to get surgery for relief instead:

But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.
​

This demonstrates both the pretense and the folly of allowing the government to make these decisions in a noncompetitive environment, or really at all. The NICE, the supposed expert panel tasked with “clinical excellence,” isn’t concerned about the excellence of care at all. It’s concerned about spending money. Its priority is to reduce its budget, not to ensure that patients have effective pain relief. Cortison shots cost more than acupuncture and osteopathy, so they want to cut back by 95% on cortisone shots regardless of whether the shots are effective or the replacement treatments are not.
And what will that produce? More back surgeries, which cost a lot more than cortisone shots. That’s NICE.
ObamaCare supporters will argue that insurance companies make the same kinds of determinations about coverage of treatments. That’s certainly true, but they also have to compete with each other for business. They will lose customers if they make too many capricious and arbitrary decisions based solely on cost rather than effectiveness of treatment as those customers find insurers who provide better service. With no competition, as in the UK, the system never has to account for its caprice or its heartlessness.
Now, only the rich will get cortisone shots in the UK, because only they have the resources to get private medical care. The rest of the nation, which pays through the nose for the NHS, will get locked into those NICE decisions that focus on the bottom line rather than proper treatment. That’s what ObamaCare will deliver as well.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/03/britain-rations-cortisone-treatments-for-back-pain/

 

[jfgordon1]

Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves

Income tax? = government

At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena.

Ahh ok... so we the people have control with socialism. Yet, we the people don't have control with capitalism.

WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.

Don't want an insurance monopoly.

 

[what... huh?]

EU's healthcare wasn't decent - it was great! And competition to produce new technology will still thrive as long as we retain private insurance and health care, which we will. We'll have both. If the government tries to absorb private health care - different story.

• 
  [*]Kidney cancer patients denied life-saving drugs by NHS rationing body NICE
  - April 29, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]
  [*]Girl, 3, has heart operation cancelled three times because of bed shortage
  - David Rose, April 23, 2009 [Times Online]
  [*]Number of children going to hospital to have teeth pulled soars by 66% since 1997
  - Daniel Martin and Cher Thornhill, April 12, 2009 [Daily Mail (UK)]
  [*]NHS 'failings' over elderly falls
  - March 25, 2009 [BBC]
  [*]Learning disabled 'failed by NHS'
  - Nick Triggle, March 24, 2009 [BBC]
  [*]Cancer survivor confronts the health secretary on 62-day wait
  - Lyndsay Moss, March 21, 2009 [The Scotsman]
  [*]Culture of targets prevents nurses from tending to patients
  - Claire Rayner, President of the Patients Association, March 21, 2009 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]Children being failed by health system, says head of watchdog
  - Sarah Boseley, March 21, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]Our cancer shame: Survival rates still lag behind EU despite spending billions
  - Jenny Hope, March 20, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]Failing hospital 'caused deaths'
  - March 17, 2009 [BBC]
  [*]Health gap drive 'wasted money'
  - Nick Triggle, March 14, 2009 [BBC]
  [*]Longer GP opening hours branded wasteful 'PR exercise' by doctors
  - Lyndsay Moss, March 13, 2009 [The Scotsman]
  [*]"Political meddling" threatens general practice, warns GP leader
  - March 13, 2009 [Management in Practice (UK)]
  [*]Children at risk through lack of training for doctors and nurses, report warns
  - Rebecca Smith, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]Chocolate should be taxed to control obesity epidemic, doctors are told
  - Simon Johnson, March 13, 2009 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]1,000 villagers wait for a dentist after just one NHS practice opens
  - March 10, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]Study that proves the folly of NHS Alzheimer's drug ban
  - Jenny Hope, March 7, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]NHS charges to rise in England
  - March 5, 2009 [BBC]
  [*]Disabled children wait up to two years for wheelchairs
  - March 4, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]NHS under fire over waiting times
  - February 25, 2009 [The Scotsman]
  [*]Government procrastination blamed for HIV-contaminated blood tragedy
  - February 23, 2009 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]Specialist nurses 'vastly overworked'
  - February 20, 2009 [Harwich & Manningtree Standard]
  [*]Hundreds of operations cancelled at Lothian hospitals
  - Adam Morris, February 19, 2009 [The Scotsman]
  [*]Stop asking for antibiotics to cure coughs and colds, Government tells patients
  - Daniel Martin, February 17, 2009 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]Stroke services are 'UK's worst'
  - February 17, 2009 [BBC]
  [*]Hospitals curb caesarean births
  - Sarah-Kate Templeton, February 15, 2009 [The Times]
  [*]Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test, say inspectors
  - Sarah Boseley, November 24, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]Top doctors slam NHS drug rationing
  - Sarah-Kate Templeton, August 24, 2008 [The Times]
  [*]Heart patients dying due to poor hospital care, says report
  - Sarah Boseley, June 8, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]NHS dentistry loses almost a million patients after new dentists' contract
  - David Rose, June 6, 2008 [The Times]
  [*]Private healthcare managers could be sent to turn round failing NHS hospitals
  - Philip Webster, Political Editor, and David Rose, June 4, 2008 [The Times]
  [*]Cancer patients ‘betrayed’ by NHS
  - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]
  [*]NHS scandal: dying cancer victim was forced to pay
  - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 1, 2008 [The Times]
  [*]Pensioner, 76, forced to pull out own teeth after 12 NHS dentists refuse to treat her
  - Olinka Koster, March 26, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]Dental patients face care lottery
  - March 26, 2008 [Metro(UK)]
  [*]Lung patients 'condemned to death as NHS withdraws their too expensive drugs'
  - Jenny Hope, March 24, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]Women in labour turned away by maternity units
  - John Carvel, March 21, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]Health inequality has got worse under Labour, says government report
  - Andrew Sparrow, March 13, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]Angry GPs reluctantly accept plan for weekend and evening surgeries
  - John Carvel, March 7, 2008 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]NHS chiefs tell grandmother, 61, she's 'too old' for £5,000 life-saving heart surgery
  - Chris Brooke, February 28, 2008 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]Patient 'removed' from waiting list to meet target
  - January 31, 2008 [The Scotsman]
  [*]NHS patients told to treat themselves
  - James Kirkup, January 4, 2008 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]NHS is 'failing patients' despite record funding
  - Rebecca Smith, October 4, 2007 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]NHS rationing rife, say doctors
  - September 24, 2007 [BBC]
  [*]One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister
  - John Carvel, June 8, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]Audit Office asked to investigate record £500m NHS underspend
  - John Carvel, May 30, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]The drugs the NHS won't give you
  - May 11, 2007 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds
  - May 10, 2007 [Guardian Unlimited]
  [*]One in six trusts is still putting patients on mixed-sex wards
  - Daniel Martin, May 10, 2007 [Daily Mail(UK)]
  [*]Specialist stroke care 'lottery'
  - May 9, 2007 [BBC News]
  [*]Smokers and the obese banned from UK hospitals
  - May 2, 2007 [Healthcare News]
  [*]Cancer patients told life-prolonging treatment is too expensive for NHS
  - Lyndsay Moss, February 13, 2007 [The Scotsman]
  [*]UK health service "harms 10 percent of patients"
  - Kate Kelland, July 7, 2006 [Reuters]
  [*]5,000 elderly 'killed each year' by lack of care beds
  - June 26, 2006 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]Dental Socialism in Britain
  - Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., May 9, 2006 [LewRockwell.com]
  [*]Pay for nurses and surgeons doubles NHS overspend
  - Beezy Marsh, Patrick Hennessy and Nina Goswami, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]The money addicts: it's your cash they are gambling with
  - Patience Wheatcroft, April 23, 2006 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]NHS chiefs get luxury car deals
  - Daniel Foggo and Steven Swinford, April 9, 2006 [The Times]
  [*]Secret NHS plan to ration patient care
  - Nigel Hawkes, April 7, 2006 [The Times]
  [*]British Healthcare To Be Rationed
  - April 7, 2006 [United Press International]
  [*]British body rejects EPO drugs for cancer patients
  - March 17, 2006 [Reuters]
  [*]National Health Service - Grappling with Deficits
  - March 9, 2006 [Economist.com]
  [*]Hundreds wait to register as another dentist quits the NHS
  - Martin Williams, September 23, 2005 [The Herald (Scotland)]
  [*]Life-saving cancer drugs 'kept from NHS patients by red tape'
  - Sam Lister, September 20, 2005 [The Times]
  [*] NHS slides into the red despite record increases in health care spending
  - September 20, 2005 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]Alzheimer's sufferers hit by further delay in NHS approval for vital drugs
  - Michael Day, September 18, 2005 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]We all pay a price for our 'free' NHS
  - John Smith, August 19, 2005 [The Scotsman]
  [*]2,000 British doctors out of work
  - August 14, 2005 [The Washington Times]
  [*]UK health 'unsustainable'
  - August 14, 2005 [Finance24]
  [*]NHS faces rising bill for negligence claims
  - Ben Hall, August 8, 2005 [Financial Times]
  [*]British boy to go to India for operation
  - August 5, 2005 [United Press International]
  [*]NHS failed to stop doctor raping scores of women
  - Lois Rogers and Jonathon Carr-Brown, July 31, 2005 [The Times]
  [*]Top crimewriter funds drugs for cancer victim refused by NHS
  - Martyn Halle, July 8, 2005 [Telegraph UK]
  [*]Report says NHS is mired in huge debts
  - David Simms, June 25, 2005 [ABC Money (UK)]
  [*]U.K. set to restrict smoking
  - June 21, 2005 [The Associated Press]
  [*]NHS ‘fund bias’ against men may cost 2,500 lives a year
  - Sarah-Kate Templeton, June 19, 2005 [The Times]
  [*]Doubts on funding NHS 'monuments'
  - Nicholas Timmins, June 10, 2005 [Financial Times]
  [*]17 million reasons why we must improve hospital meals
  - June 7, 2005 [Cambridge Evening News]
  [*]Figures show more patients waiting for operations
  - June 3, 2005 [Guardian UK]
  [*]Scarcity of NHS dental treatment is revealed
  - Celia Hall, May 19, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]
  [*]Why NHS Opposes 'Treatment by Demand' for the Dying
  - Stephen Howard and Jan Colley, PA, May 18, 2005 [Scotsman]
  [*]800 queue for NHS dentists
  - May 5, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]
  [*]Hundreds more heroin addicts to be given a fix on the NHS
  - Nic Fleming, April 25, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]
  [*]British health service facing nurse exodus
  - April 25, 2005 [United Press International]
  [*]About 400 patients a year in Scotland succumb to MRSA
  - April 25, 2005 [Scotsman]
  [*]NHS debts soar to over £1bn
  - Karyn Miller, April 24, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]
  [*]British taxpayers foot $26.5 million bill for abortion tourists
  - April 18, 2005 [Catholic World News]
  [*]U.K. Liberal Democrats Would Raise Taxes to Pay for Health Care
  - Reed Landberg, April 14, 2005 [Bloomberg]
  [*]Number of NHS Bureaucrats 'Rising Faster Than Health Staff'
  - Joe Churcher, March 22, 2005 [Scotsman]
  [*]'£500m hole' in hospital budgets
  - Celia Hall, March 21, 2005 [telegraph.co.uk]
  [*]1,000 Scots desert NHS every week
  - Murdo Macleod, March 5, 2005 [Scotsman]
  [*]British NHS facing financial crisis
  - March 3, 2005 [Washington Times]
  [*]NHS drugs regulator to withdraw approval of Alzheimer's treatment
  - Nicholas Timmins, March 2, 2005 [FT.com - Financial Times]
  [*]NHS waiting list rises
  - February 11, 2005 [Guardian UK]
  [*]Tumour patients hit by NHS shortages
  - Jo Revill, February 6, 2005 [Guardian UK]
  [*]NHS financial crises set to outlast winter
  - Mike Waites, February 4, 2005 [Yorkshire Post]
  [*]NHS 24 'priority' callers wait four hours for advice
  - Caroline Wilson, January 14, 2005 [Evening Times (UK)]
  [*]'No strategy' on NHS waiting time
  - January 14, 2005 [BBC]
  [*]Output figures show NHS decline
  - John Carvel, October 19, 2004 [Guardian UK]
  [*]Heart patients die on waiting lists
  - Peter Sharples, October 18, 2004 [Manchester Online]
  [*]£25bn overspend feared for NHS computer network
  - Karen Attwood, October 12, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]
  [*]Gaps in care cost £7bn, says charity
  - John Carvel, October 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]
  [*]NHS excluding poor people, UK
  - September 15, 2004 [Medical News Today]
  [*]Smokers 'should not get NHS care'
  - September 6, 2004 [BBC News]
  [*]Waiting list row blights Brighton
  - John Carvel, September 4, 2004 [Guardian UK]
  [*]Patients are denied the last rites under data protection law
  - Elizabeth Day, July 25, 2004 [telegraph.co.uk]
  [*]Shortage of dentists to double by 2011
  - John Carvel, July 24, 2004 [Guardian UK]
  [*]Britain's stiff upper lip gives way to a snarl
  - Sarah Lyall, July 18, 2004 [The New York Times]
  [*]Hospital Overcrowding A Cause of Superbug Infections
  - John von Radowitz, July 1, 2004 [Scotsman.com]
  [*]Hospital Crisis: Fallen Angels
  - Lindsay Mcgarvie, May 23, 2004 [Glasgow Sunday Mail]
  [*]Study finds British hospitals are still austere, cold, smelly and poorly maintained
  - May 6, 2004 [News-Medical.net]
  [*]Hospital bathrooms and showers: a continuing saga of inadequacy
  - Andy Monro, MRCP & Graham P Mulley, DM, FRCP, May 2004 [Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine]
  [*]Majority back public smoking ban
  - March 24, 2004 [BBC]
  [*]Discrimination Rampant In British Health Care
  - Peter Moore, November 17, 2003 [365gay.com]
  [*]PERIPATETICS—To the Medical Socialists of All Parties
  - Sheldon Richman, September 2003 [FEE.org]
  [*]Creeping Privatization?
  Shortages of skilled workers, low morale, long queues for services, crumbling facilities and corrupt practises. - Roland Watson, August 6, 2001 [LewRockwell.com]
  [*]The World's Worst HMO
  - Stephen D. Moore, November 24, 1999 [Random Thoughts]
  [*]Socialized Medicine in Great Britain: Lessons for the Oregon Health Plan
  - Professor John Spiers, March 18, 1999 [Cascade Policy Institute]
  [*]The Sickbed Which is Socialized British Medicine
  - December 23, 1997 [NCPA]
  [*]The British Way of Withholding Care
  - Harry Schwarz, March 1989 [FEE.org]

It's decent.

Private health care is going to skyrocket because there are less people paying into the system. Free market requires a free market.

 

[what... huh?]

double post

 

[Keenly]

uh oh, double gigantic post =/

 

[what... huh?]

Yeah... timed out, backed up and re-sent...


The problem is this... like it or not, health care is a limited commodity.

Do you envision the hospitals and doctors offices in this country are sitting around... playing video games? Are there a bunch of out of work doctors because there is not enough work?

No... the system works to capacity... all the time. You give everybody free health care, and there is not an increase in professionals capable of handling health care, and you start waiting. Then you know what happens? Nurses are given more duties... and handle more procedures... and more medical diagnosis... and suddenly doctors are just reviewing and approving non MD's medical work. While our taxes creep over 50%.

Nightmare.

 

[Rob Roy]

I've been around the world many times my friend and can tell you both as a witness and a patient abroad that the systems work. The EU system is perhaps the finest - it's not limited by state, highly organized, and efficient. Examine the facts - life spans, death rates, disease rates, etc - and eradicate the myths - long lines, no specialization, low wages - and then look at the issue. What is there not to like about it? Mandatory taxes paying for it? Our taxes pay for all kinds of useless shit (war, expensive toilet seats) - at least health care will help people.

What is there not to like about it?
It expands government, it wastes money and it forces people into a mandatory system.

Our taxes pay for useless shit? No kidding. I agree.

At least health care wll help people? Then why is it mandatory if it's so good? Are people incapable of making their own decisons without being forced by government? What is the purpose of government?

 

[ViRedd]

Versus 1/6 of the economy being controlled by greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves? At least the people loosely (very loosely) contribute to the government. We have no say over private enterprise in the health care arena. WHY? We need both worlds - a combination.

In 1985 I broke my neck in an accident. I wasn't covered by insurance because of a "preexisting condition.' The surgeon agreed to take payments over a time that was comfortable for me. The hospital agreed to take a very minimum amount down with payments over a year. I met my obligations on time. My surgeon extended my life.

Are these the "greedy, unregulated, immoral thieves" you alluded to?

Vi