Whats in the healthcare bill?

ilkhan said:

Oh no I don't believe the spin.
I know the insurance companies are wack.
BUT, the government can't do it any better.
I say get them all out of the buisness altogether.
Let people contract with doctors themselves.
Set up HSA. (health savings accounts)
As well as major medical insurance.
We sure as hell don't need any government (or insurance companies)
between us and our doctors.\

What is needed is more competition to lower costs.
Not one huge system we must all cope with.

so what if we are 41st. I bet it has more to do with
lifestyle and diet then socialized healthcare.

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It does. I'm just sick of people saying that socialized healthcare leads to killing of old people, which the person to whom I was responding said verbatim. These countries don't just kill old people. I was pointing out that in fact, their old people live longer than our old people.

Maybe but their end of life care is rationed. (What I've seen ours will be aswell)
So if your 89 years old you don't get the same service a 59 year old would.
Ted Kennedys brain tumor wouldn't be a high priority under this system.

Look I hardly ever go to the doctors.
I am comeing from the perspective of freedom and free markets.
Not feel good BS.
I just don't see having government goons saying what can and can't be done as a good thing.
I really like the idea of Health savings accounts to cover minor things and major medical to cover the rest.
What passes for 'insurance' isn't really insurance. HMO's I mean.

Why do we have to destroy the system altogether.
I would do this:
Set up health savings accounts.
I would set these up with a credit card type system to charge overages.
Provide major medical insurance.
with a high deductable to draw off the health savings account.
With a max cap that you would ever have to pay.
Say 25-50K Max, negotiable.

This would set up a system that would encourage competition
dicourage over useing the doctors office.
And cover the 250k bills we all fear.

ilkhan said:

Maybe but their end of life care is rationed. (What I've seen ours will be aswell)
So if your 89 years old you don't get the same service a 59 year old would.
Ted Kennedys brain tumor wouldn't be a high priority under this system.

Look I hardly ever go to the doctors.
I am comeing from the perspective of freedom and free markets.
Not feel good BS.
I just don't see having government goons saying what can and can't be done as a good thing.
I really like the idea of Health savings accounts to cover minor things and major medical to cover the rest.
What passes for 'insurance' isn't really insurance. HMO's I mean.

Why do we have to destroy the system altogether.
I would do this:
Set up health savings accounts.
I would set these up with a credit card type system to charge overages.
Provide major medical insurance.
with a high deductable to draw off the health savings account.
With a max cap that you would ever have to pay.
Say 25-50K Max, negotiable.

This would set up a system that would encourage competition
dicourage over useing the doctors office.
And cover the 250k bills we all fear.

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Actually, if you're 89 and you have private insurance, then you can get whatever the fuck you want. And if you're 89 and on government insurance, you'll still be cared for. You may not have doctors bending over backwards to delay the inevitable, but you lived to 89. Everyone dies and I will always give priority to young over old IF it came to it. But as well all know, it will NEVER to come this. We will pass a mitigated health care plan that will not in any way encounter a situation where the old will have to be subordinated. Not gonna happen.

ilkhan said:

You people have no concept of what a right is do you.
You think its a privledge granted to you by government don't you.
Just because you want a thing to be a right does not make it so.
It isn't a right if you must impose on someone elses rights.

If the government chooses what your care will be.
What meds your doctor can give
or indeed where your doctor lives.
That is not a halmark of a free society.
While I don't think less of you as people for holding socialistic notions like these.
I would rather suffer the problems of to much liberty then the horrors of not enouph.

BTW if you think the poor are gonna have the same service as the rich
in a socialized system you got another thing comin'.

Quick question maybe one of the more learned people could answer for me.
Why is cosmedic surgery maintaining the same costs or lowering
while other medical things are going up?
Are cosmedic surgens not greedy?
The government and most insurance don't cover cosmedic surgery.
Cosmedic surgery can be dangerous.
It is often fairly invasive.
Just wondering if you could enlighten me.

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"It isn't a right if you must impose on someone elses rights"

jrh72582 said:

WRONG! We are 41st in life expectancy worldwide. 41st. I repeat, 41st. As of 2008. FACT. Look at all the countries above us - how many are socialized???????

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Marginal

75 - 76 vs 78 - 79. OMFG, 3 - 4 years.

How horrible, simply fucking horrible...

Give me a break, and why don't you stop playing with the statistics and pull out the real data?

jrh72582 said:

It does. I'm just sick of people saying that socialized healthcare leads to killing of old people, which the person to whom I was responding said verbatim. These countries don't just kill old people. I was pointing out that in fact, their old people live longer than our old people.

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Old people are old people, and everyone has to die sometime.

But I guess that Democrats fear death, must be because they know where they are going. I'd fear death to if I was a Democrat...

Old people are old people, and everyone has to die sometime.

But I guess that Democrats fear death, must be because they know where they are going. I'd fear death to if I was a Democrat...

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Wow you say I always bring in politics into economic discussions (which funny enough I told you why that is a bad thing to do, and should not be done). But you trump it with bible speak.

I love that you imply that democrats are going to hell for trying to help fix a broken system in order to get people insurance so they can get healthcare.

How evil.

hanimmal said:

Wow you say I always bring in politics into economic discussions (which funny enough I told you why that is a bad thing to do, and should not be done). But you trump it with bible speak.

I love that you imply that democrats are going to hell for trying to help fix a broken system in order to get people insurance so they can get healthcare.

How evil.

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System isn't broken. If it was broken why do so many Canadians opt to come down here instead of waiting months for something as mundane as an MRI, a CAT Scan or other advanced medical procedures.

Is the system 100% effective, of course not, but that's because Health care like all commodities has limits to its availability. Using government force, fraud and coercion to make people get Health Insurance (which for the fifteen billion time is not Health Care) is not going to solve the problems of Health Care being a limited commodity. It will only make the situation worse, because people are going to be inclined to use it, because they are paying for it, leading to increased demand, and thus increased costs.

TheBrutalTruth said:

Old people are old people, and everyone has to die sometime.

But I guess that Democrats fear death, must be because they know where they are going. I'd fear death to if I was a Democrat...

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I'm not a democrat and I don't fear death. You're being completely ridiculous. I agree old people die - that's obvious. What's your point because you clearly don't understand mine?

And as far as analyzing the data, we have. What the hell do you think we've been doing. Again, your displaying your laziness. READ! There are hundreds of links to data, with ensuing discussion. Hundreds.

The only point I ever made is that there's no reason to spread false information about this bill. It's a mitigated approach to fix our current system, which leaves 60+ million people uninsured. Now those 60+ million can have health care. This health care will NOT resemble Canada's or EU's system. Even if it did, it's no matter. Four or five Canadians on this site have nothing but praise for their system. I'm sure 4 or 5 on this site translates to millions nationwide in Canada. My Canadian friends love their system. So paste some more links about how horrid Canada's system is and for each one you post, I'll match it with an article about how bad our system is. So let's ameliorate these weaknesses by combining BOTH worlds. Privatized and socialized health care.

We eat shit.

It is amazing we live as long as we do. We are fatter, which causes a lot of health problems... don't blame poor medical care... blame McDonalds, and our inability to stop eating there.

what... huh? said:

We eat shit.

It is amazing we live as long as we do. We are fatter, which causes a lot of health problems... don't blame poor medical care... blame McDonalds, and our inability to stop eating there.

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And Mercury...

what... huh? said:

We eat shit.

It is amazing we live as long as we do. We are fatter, which causes a lot of health problems... don't blame poor medical care... blame McDonalds, and our inability to stop eating there.

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I'm not blaming healthcare for that! Listen to my damn argument. I merely used the life span as evidence for the fact that the EU and Canada don't kill all old people, as the original person I was responding to said. My point was, if Canada and the EU kill all their old people on account of socialized medicine, then why do they still live longer than we do in the US? That was my point and it stands.

One thing that frustrates me about this site is that some people are willing to concede on some points but most of you guys will NEVER concede to being wrong. You ALWAYS 100% of the time think you're right. Do you not see the arrogance and impossibility of this? Can you not just relent for once when you're wrong? Stop attacking and fucking listen for once.

jrh72582 said:

I'm not blaming healthcare for that! Listen to my damn argument. I merely used the life span as evidence for the fact that the EU and Canada don't kill all old people, as the original person I was responding to said. My point was, if Canada and the EU kill all their old people on account of socialized medicine, then why do they still live longer than we do in the US? That was my point and it stands.

One thing that frustrates me about this site is that some people are willing to concede on some points but most of you guys will NEVER concede to being wrong. You ALWAYS 100% of the time think you're right. Do you not see the arrogance and impossibility of this? Can you not just relent for once when you're wrong? Stop attacking and fucking listen for once.

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"Stop attacking and fucking listen for once" Hmmm.
Trust me... we see the arrogance alright.

Rob Roy said:

"Stop attacking and fucking listen for once" Hmmm.
Trust me... we see the arrogance alright.

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Do you always invade conversions that have nothing to do with you? A bit presumptuous, don't you think?

Either way, thanks for passing judgment so quickly. I appreciate it.

jrh72582 said:

Do you always invade conversions that have nothing to do with you? A bit presumptuous, don't you think?

Either way, thanks for passing judgment so quickly. I appreciate it.

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No. Maybe. Your welcome.

jrh72582 said:

WRONG! We are 41st in life expectancy worldwide. 41st. I repeat, 41st. As of 2008. FACT. Look at all the countries above us - how many are socialized???????

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LOL, typical response from the left when presented with the DATA that they demanded. You OBVIOUSLY didn't even bother to look at the study since you knew it would tear down your belief that we don't have the best healthcare system in the world.

No one is saying our life expectancy isn't lower than plenty of other countries IF and only IF you don't factor in homicides and auto/transit fatalities. Unfortunately for your argument, when you do account for those very important factors, we SKYROCKET to first place. And I have news for you, it's because our healthcare system is so much better.

What about the charts that show our survivability to major diseases (which is SOLELY affected by health care) is the best in the world. How does that fit in with your argument.

LOL, typical response from the left when presented with the DATA that they demanded. You OBVIOUSLY didn't even bother to look at the study since you knew it would tear down your belief that we don't have the best healthcare system in the world.

No one is saying our life expectancy isn't lower than plenty of other countries IF and only IF you don't factor in homicides and auto/transit fatalities. Unfortunately for your argument, when you do account for those very important factors, we SKYROCKET to first place. And I have news for you, it's because our healthcare system is so much better.

What about the charts that show our survivability to major diseases (which is SOLELY affected by health care) is the best in the world. How does that fit in with your argument.

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Ok then lets look at the other side of life, We have a shitty infant mortality rate too. There is no reason that this should be the case if our hospitals were so wonderful like you imagine them to be.

Released in October 2008, a new data brief from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Health Statistics ranks the United States 29th globally in infant mortality in 2004, the latest year such data were available for all countries.

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http://www.apha.org/publications/tnh/archives/2009/February09/Nation/BabiesNAT.htm

hanimmal said:

Ok then lets look at the other side of life, We have a shitty infant mortality rate too. There is no reason that this should be the case if our hospitals were so wonderful like you imagine them to be.

http://www.apha.org/publications/tnh/archives/2009/February09/Nation/BabiesNAT.htm

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It's a valid argument. Unlike JRH, I actually took the time to look over the link you provided.

It appears they really don't have an explanation as to why our infant mortality rate is so high... cited directly in the link. They seem to think that it isn't from lack of ability to care for the infant once it is born, but more from the fact that we have so many premature babies. The article also seemed to suggest that the mortality rate could be linked to smoking and lack of breast feeding (more of a cultural gap than a health care issue, I think the word is out that you shouldn't smoke while your pregnant).

The article did make some interesting points about health care "PRE-CONCEPTION" affecting premature birth rates, but then it also said "you can do everything right and still have a premature birth". It does make a convincing case that we should focus more on prenatal care and I could certainly get behind that.

I'm not an anti-abortion guy at all (unless you're talking partial birth, late term stuff), but if you factored in all the abortions towards our infant mortality rate, I gotta think we would look pretty awful. Just a thought.

MuyLocoNC said:

It's a valid argument. Unlike JRH, I actually took the time to look over the link you provided.

It appears they really don't have an explanation as to why our infant mortality rate is so high... cited directly in the link. They seem to think that it isn't from lack of ability to care for the infant once it is born, but more from the fact that we have so many premature babies. The article also seemed to suggest that the mortality rate could be linked to smoking and lack of breast feeding (more of a cultural gap than a health care issue, I think the word is out that you shouldn't smoke while your pregnant).

The article did make some interesting points about health care "PRE-CONCEPTION" affecting premature birth rates, but then it also said "you can do everything right and still have a premature birth". It does make a convincing case that we should focus more on prenatal care and I could certainly get behind that.

I'm not an anti-abortion guy at all (unless you're talking partial birth, late term stuff), but if you factored in all the abortions towards our infant mortality rate, I gotta think we would look pretty awful. Just a thought.

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Keep the insults coming. You have to compensate for your inadequacies somewhere.......

I can take the heat - no problem. My life, after all, is quite good. Nothing you can say on the internet affects me at all buddy.

jrh72582 said:

Keep the insults coming. You have to compensate for your inadequacies somewhere.......

I can take the heat - no problem. My life, after all, is quite good. Nothing you can say on the internet affects me at all buddy.

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No insult intended at all. Just pointing out the fact that you obviously didn't even look at the data, that you denied was in existence. You made the comments and I responded with a University study (because we all know how important your academia is to you).

I could provide links to literally hundreds of similar studies and reports that all show that homicides and auto/transit fatalities are solely responsible for the US not being number one in life expectancy. But, since you won't look at anything that might disturb your concept of reality, it would simply be a waste of my time.

And as far as inadequacies, don't bother. There is NO aspect of your life that could make mine pale by comparison. In fact, I can say with no fear of confutation from any of my non-cyber friends that frequent this website, life doesn't get much better than this. Anytime you would like to compare net worth, family, friends, retirement at age 37, outright home ownership, penis length, attractiveness of mate, success of children, health, military service, height, not being a jerkoff or anything else, I'm right here. Notice I didn't mention formal education, I know you've got me bought and sold in that area. But then I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out how much credence I would give to the value of an education from such liberal cesspools.