Resinhound
Well-Known Member
interesting,cmh increased potency? through spectrum or reduced intensity?
Which reds, blues, and uvb diodes?
- Thread starter Thorhax
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FranJan
Well-Known Member
Just stick with me for a moment.
This summer I switched my Veg cab from blurple to 4000K Luminus CXM 18s. Because of height restrictions I had to remove the cpu's coolers fans and cut power from 900-1050 mA to around 400 to 600 mA. Now besides all that I had an excess of plants. Big plants. 10 gallon container big. Now the bottom section can only veg 2 of those kind of plants at a time and because of timing mistakes I had three. So everyday I would just rotate the plants, basically every 3 days 1 plant sits outside the cab, which of course has the doors open. Also that dark day plant was about 2+ feet away from the COBs. So I had to go away for 6 days this summer and when I came back the plant outside the cabinet was in excellent, if dry, condition. So considering the reduced power output of the COBs and the plant's distance from the source, the growth was impressive to me. After that I just started taking clones and plants that got a bit too big for the upper section and leaving them outside the veg cab and they grew fine with no to little stretch so that got me thinking to add some of these 4000Ks to my flowering area and it seemed to work fine. No excess leafiness like I noticed the last time I tried to use Neutral whites in my flowering section. But then someone said something about not mixing different lights properly can result in less than satisfactory results. The plant ends up half done I believe they were saying. So I took the Neutrals and threw some ghetto reflectors on them and directed them onto one section of my last few plants. What I've noticed is very interesting. Both my Goji OG and Sour D x Sour OG are having a rough finish, for different reasons I might add, but wouldn't you know the section under the 4000K, as opposed to the areas primarily lit by my 3000K Vero and Illumitex F3 are visibly healthier. Almost no damage as opposed to the rest of the plant which is suffering from my super rushed, over-ferted mix. So I'm really liking 4000K as a penetrating type source and health boost but of course it's going to take real science to find out what's going on. Still, when I notice something in my tent that is a positive I tend to stick with it so if tomorrow I was to spend some scratch I would go with a 3000 or 3500K primary source and then add smaller 4000 or 4200K lights with reflectors as accessory lights. The primary would be the main flowering engines and the secondariness for health and to extend PAR levels throughout the grow area. I'm not 100% sold on 4000K as a primary, the buds on that side are not as big but that could be my fault as much as the light's. That is something I will watch for in the future.
That's a tough call and to be honest there are people better qualified to give you hard numbers. But let me think about it.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I would add some 850nm. 
Don't you hate it when that happens... Lack of certain information about something that is known to be beneficial...
Astro Aquanaut
Active Member
I have posted this link previously on RIU, but I will post it again... There is no doubt that UVB increases THC %'s that has been proven, and so we defer back to youtube
Sorry for spamming this video, however I think it is pretty good except the Tanning bed deal at the end because they use UVA light...
My theory is there is a relationship between spectrum distribution density and the photochemical/electromagnetic processes which are taking place in the plant... Certain spectrum's at different intensities produce different results whether bringing out terpenes increasing thc etc etc... I believe we will find light similar to nutrient uptake... That is my theory from what I have been reading, and there is no silver bullet because different genetics/strains for example how some nute solutions work better for certain strains similarly so will different spectrum distributions... That is my theory so far...
However, UVB is essential in my view... Whether the results are purely because of UVB or a combination of UVB and various other spectrums combined who knows ( more research required ). I don't think it would take much if someone had a uv meter, spectrometer, and chromatograph to figure all this out... I can see this is going to end up with a bunch of people buying DNA sequencers off of ebay...
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Abiqua
Well-Known Member
Is it essential? how do you explain LED produced flower that is comparable in HID THC yield, but lacks UVB? aka GG example in 2014.....
There are many variables beyond just THC one of at least 100+ known terpene/terpenoids...I think it would be fascinating to examine more of terpene profiles with/without UVB range of light and examine each profile....Too bad that is like 40 years of solid work at today's pace....maybe in ten
There are many variables beyond just THC one of at least 100+ known terpene/terpenoids...I think it would be fascinating to examine more of terpene profiles with/without UVB range of light and examine each profile....Too bad that is like 40 years of solid work at today's pace....maybe in ten
Resinhound
Well-Known Member
You know there are alot of plants that dont produce THC and somehow survive in high UVB exposure areas.UVB probably isnt the only piece of the puzzle here,but I dunno for sure ofc.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I'm too couchlocked to grab the links but there is solid relevant research that makes it worth to at least test it especially if you are into resin production.
According to what's his name "et al" the difference between hemp and the drug variety is that hemp is not able to convert cbd to thc. That process appears to be triggered also by uv. The effect supposedly differs based on the difference to the equator as well, so with todays hybrids what may work for one may not work for others. It could work better for varieties that have more cbd. I remember thinking "Wouldn't it be ironic if someone would run uv b on high cbd strain".
Experiments with several plant species have shown plants under increased uv b levels create a higher density of trichs. It's always hard to determine with certainty why a plant does something, as it's merely something random that helped ancenstors to survive long enough to reproduce, but it is assumed both thc and trichomes in general help protect the plants against amongst others UV light. In which case it is not a long stretch to think the plant will produce a more optimal amount of trichs and thus thc if subject to certain uv levels.
On the flip side, plants on Antarctica under holes in the ozon layer, specifically to test the impact of higher uv from sunlight, showed several negative results, which would translate to a major yield reduction. The ozon depletion sparked a lot of research aboit the effect of uv on plants. One of them is thicker leaves, which can actually be useful and make it more resistant pest and diseases, another is an increased amount of flavonoids (including pigments) production.
With cannabinoid and terpene testing becoming more easily available it should be easy enough to test. Actually one of the better growers riu had (kite high) compared and posted test results that showed several % increase.
I could perhaps test it with some of my frosty seedlings... At that stage I can count the trichs and while a small difference would mean nothing, a large one would.
According to what's his name "et al" the difference between hemp and the drug variety is that hemp is not able to convert cbd to thc. That process appears to be triggered also by uv. The effect supposedly differs based on the difference to the equator as well, so with todays hybrids what may work for one may not work for others. It could work better for varieties that have more cbd. I remember thinking "Wouldn't it be ironic if someone would run uv b on high cbd strain".
Experiments with several plant species have shown plants under increased uv b levels create a higher density of trichs. It's always hard to determine with certainty why a plant does something, as it's merely something random that helped ancenstors to survive long enough to reproduce, but it is assumed both thc and trichomes in general help protect the plants against amongst others UV light. In which case it is not a long stretch to think the plant will produce a more optimal amount of trichs and thus thc if subject to certain uv levels.
On the flip side, plants on Antarctica under holes in the ozon layer, specifically to test the impact of higher uv from sunlight, showed several negative results, which would translate to a major yield reduction. The ozon depletion sparked a lot of research aboit the effect of uv on plants. One of them is thicker leaves, which can actually be useful and make it more resistant pest and diseases, another is an increased amount of flavonoids (including pigments) production.
With cannabinoid and terpene testing becoming more easily available it should be easy enough to test. Actually one of the better growers riu had (kite high) compared and posted test results that showed several % increase.
I could perhaps test it with some of my frosty seedlings... At that stage I can count the trichs and while a small difference would mean nothing, a large one would.
Astro Aquanaut
Active Member
HID, as in HPS? because against LEC, LEP, and MH I don't think it does... All I stated was that in my opinion UVB is essential, and especially if you are breeding...I already stated my theory... I subscribe to the plants are function based, and THC etc is a defensive mechanism. Plants are going to express that defensive trait more if they have to use it or are selectively breed for phenos that are associated with that trait... So, in my view introducing UVB to increase THC makes sense... I didn't invent the research.Is it essential? how do you explain LED produced flower that is comparable in HID THC yield, but lacks UVB? aka GG example in 2014.....
There are many variables beyond just THC one of at least 100+ known terpene/terpenoids...I think it would be fascinating to examine more of terpene profiles with/without UVB range of light and examine each profile....Too bad that is like 40 years of solid work at today's pace....maybe in ten
If you have it dialed in nutrient etc, and pumping out 26% thc/a and introducing uvb will increase it to 29% then what is the problem?
The interesting part I thought was LED spectrum's activating the production of terpenes which are not detected in HPS, because if what the stoner hippie lab guy says is true that phenols and terpenes go through a process to create cannabanoids and thc then there can be some interesting research into LED+UVB...
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Airwalker16
Well-Known Member
Great videoI have posted this link previously on RIU, but I will post it again... There is no doubt that UVB increases THC %'s that has been proven, and so we defer back to youtube
Sorry for spamming this video, however I think it is pretty good except the Tanning bed deal at the end because they use UVA light...
My theory is there is a relationship between spectrum distribution density and the photochemical/electromagnetic processes which are taking place in the plant... Certain spectrum's at different intensities produce different results whether bringing out terpenes increasing thc etc etc... I believe we will find light similar to nutrient uptake... That is my theory from what I have been reading, and there is no silver bullet because different genetics/strains for example how some nute solutions work better for certain strains similarly so will different spectrum distributions... That is my theory so far...
However, UVB is essential in my view... Whether the results are purely because of UVB or a combination of UVB and various other spectrums combined who knows ( more research required ). I don't think it would take much if someone had a uv meter, spectrometer, and chromatograph to figure all this out... I can see this is going to end up with a bunch of people buying DNA sequencers off of ebay...
Astro Aquanaut
Active Member
So, after watching that I am figuring on running 2x54 watt T5 or 2x40 watt T8 in between 2 led bars... However, I am still torn if I want to use medical UVB or the Reptile bulbs...
Airwalker16
Well-Known Member
Where do you get medical uv bulbs?the just even sound better haha
Astro Aquanaut
Active Member
http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/lamps/special-lamps/medical-lamps/medical-therapy-uvb-broad-band/uvb-broadband-tl/928011301201_EU/product
That is the bulb am looking at... You can search on google and find them all over the place, and there are some other manufacturers also.. I found one place that has a adjustable height standing human irradiator deal lol similar to sun tanning that is all UVB lol... There is no UVA in it...
I read in the US people want prescriptions for medical bulbs, however I don't think customs is looking for prescription light bulbs... And I order cuban cigars online from EU, and use to order seeds from EU, so I don't think there would be any issues getting them or if even they require a prescription inside the US for those bulbs.. I don't see why anyone would need a prescription for a UVB light... The UVB LED's are equal in spectrum to the narrow band UVB lights which clip part of the UVB spectrum... So, for example that phillips is hitting 280 to 315 spectrum with some UVA...
E273SL UVC-LED 273-283 1
E305SL UVC-LED 305-315 1
The E273SL is snagging mostly UVC and the 305SL is narrowband...
The Zoomed bulbs I believe are just garbage... Came across this video from another forum
note: I have no emotional ties to LED/HPS/LEP/LEC or any other build I just want to grow dank buds with complexity and power which means terpenes and high thc, so I am not a die hard HID fan or LED fan. I am also partial to hash, so my needs are exactly high THC+Terpenes, and total yield can be made up through more lighting.. However, if mixing LED+UVB brings me closer to hash heaven then that is where I must go
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MacNugget
Member
This is an old thread but interesting there's many approaches but to answer your question my 2 cents is use osram oslon SSL 80 diodes and meanwell driver if you are using fixed enhanced spectrum keep it 7:2 red to blue ratio target 660 and 440 be careful adding to much far red IR they can stretch the plants grow to fast and 3590s have a little already so if you add IR keep it small. UVB diodes are available now its 2018 the cirrus reflex uvb is an example is targets low uvb and uva very similar bandwidth to a T5 uvb which is an option for you. Adding uvb needs caution using the right amounts is important as if you over do it you will damage your plant the idea of adding uvb diodes would require a switch as you would not run it permanently. You would be better of with UVA diode with that config I use an osrom SSL 80 running at 385 nm which is used in bloom. Some target the green spectrum but tbh I use 3590s with leds independently as I can use channel switching to boost blue for veg and late bloom or red for bloom late veg the spectrum can be adjusted enhancing spectrum for different stages. I use a clw ss 550 for main blue reds and supplemental side lighting if you want cheap osram SSL 80 with uva growant are good. Adding uvb needs to be done carefully I would keep it as sup maybe a cirrus reflex UVb type for diodes or a t5 HO uvb also CMH have uva and strong canopy punch the plasmas have UV but to exy not that flash I heard. Combining 3590s with separate manageable diodes targeting spectrum enhancement works well but be careful with UV and stressing your plants but you can produce high par at very economic power rates the osram are rated for 100 000 hours with 1% loss they work great with the cobs there are a lot of variables but if you keep pH ecc right and use uvb uva carefully you take the science from the elements and focus them according to the biology. Great thread
MacNugget
Member
Reptile lamps can cover a lot of the low spectrum if you get the right one you might get some spikes in green maybe avoid yellow for the heat or the ones that have a lot of high far red they are a good option some reptiles use horticulture uvb also. I am not sure why low bandwidth diodes are exy the cirrus reflex is exy the UV A is quite common though I saw some epistar uvb diodes on alibaba. Some curing uvbs do horticulture versions but if you got the right spectrum reptile lamp they do cover some sweet zones. The UV diodes are starting to kick in it would be great if a UV A B full spectrum cob was available some companies claim 3590 start at 380 but the spectrograph shows it flat line till after 400 I guess sub 400 can burn the 385 does so maybe this is intentional.
MacNugget
Member
Alibaba confuses me sometimes lol I saw some new epistar strips at 300 nm but no idea what they are like. As far as I know the Cirrus reflex uvb is the first to use uvb diodes they have a little in 290-330 and a large 380 UV A peak but they are way over priced just wish I knew what the diodes are. Hopefully uvb diodes will kick in more. Some reptile lamps got some sweet spectrum
MacNugget
Member
I got no idea what alibaba is selling lol I was just reading that Osram are developing high strength mass release UVB diodes the 280-310 as well as UVC. The osram ssl80 uva I got at 385 is really strong a next gen osram uvb diode could be beast