Who says LED and CMH can't get along?

TheSadVeryBadMadGrower

TheSadVeryBadMadGrower

Well-Known Member
hybridway2 said:
I hear ya. When the day comes anything in my grow starts breaking or malfunctioning, I'll be the first person to report it. I saved up while using cheap Blurples we cant even pronounce to buying my first white light LED. ( Mars TS-1000 ). At the time, I didn't have $125 to just blow on a light. Anyways, I got great results with it ( In my own opinion ) so I started saving for a bigger light. ( My first Mars TSL-2000 ). I have been using those 2 alone every day over a year now with zero problems as of yet. Like I said though, if and when they break, Ill journal it.
Click to expand...
Diode depreciation would need to be done with a documented measurement the day of first use, then a yr + 2 yrs later.
[/QUOTE]
I don't use fancy gadgets because one I cant afford them yet but I use the results under my lights....actual grows.
 
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower

TheSadVeryBadMadGrower

Well-Known Member
hillbill said:
Consider also, if you are on this forum often and buy an SP or TS and have issues that they will treat you well.
It is possible for a corporation to re-evaluate their priorities. Time will tell but I think I could grow some good pot with these.
Yeah, this boomer's old enough to say pot.
Click to expand...
In my threads I have said over and over again I cant speak for their past as I didn't use their lights back then so I can say how they were or how the light performed. I can however say how they are now. And I say this but well It's RIU lol
 
C

christopher jordan

Well-Known Member
Grow Lights Australia said:
One week later, and you can see for yourself. This guy knows what he's doing. He's a personal grower, but quite experienced. The hot weather hasn't bothered his plants at all. No aircon, just a fan for circulation.

View attachment 4460948

View attachment 4460950

View attachment 4460949

His last summer grow with the 2x 315W CMH and 1x 600W HPS lamps produced around 2.5lb, due to the heat. This was down from 3+lb at other times of year. It was the heat that prompted the switch to LED. Originally he wanted to grow under LED in the summer and go back to HIDs in winter. But if this system works, he reckons it will stay year-round. Plus it uses almost 400W less without the 600W HPS and ballast.

We can hardly wait to see what his plants look like next week. :weed:
Click to expand...
But what if for the sake of argument you use a mars light with the cmh? lol
 
C

christopher jordan

Well-Known Member
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower said:
I wouldn't mind using both either. When I first started growing, I knew nothing at all besides if you give a plant water and sun it grows. That's it. I was always under the impression LED runs much much cooler so that's why I went with LED. IF I knew then what I know now, my lights would be different.
Click to expand...
Caution cmh may not work in conjunction with a Mars light.
 
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower

TheSadVeryBadMadGrower

Well-Known Member
The misconception for me when I first started out was that HPS in my tent would be like walking on the sun. I had to really tinker with my spaces though since I have all my rooms in one room so getting the temps and humidity right in each one without affecting the other rooms was a really fun time. The problem is there's just too much info out there and if you don't know what to really look for , it can really dent your wallet.
 
Grow Lights Australia

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
christopher jordan said:
But what if for the sake of argument you use a mars light with the cmh? lol
Click to expand...
The best DE CMH lamps put out around 2.0 umol/j, so you really want to be adding something a bit more efficient than that. And so it depends on how accurate advertised PAR figures are for the type of LED you're looking at using.

Perhaps more importantly you want to compliment your CMH spectrum by adding more red if you can. Most Mars spectra leave a bit to be desired. Apart from the old blurples, these days they appear to use cheaper CRI70 white phosphors with a small amount of 660 to try to bring up the efficiency while keeping costs down, so the spectra are usually not very even and quite heavily weighted in the green and yellow region with a lot of blue and very little cyan. A good 3000K CMH already has a superior spectrum to this.
 
Grow Lights Australia

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
hillbill said:
I see some boards using Samsung 301b +h but using LG for UV and Epistar for 660s.
Click to expand...
The LM301B and H are the same diode. LG has some very efficient UV and near-UV LEDs for good prices and I believe Epistar makes 660nm epis for most of the other manufacturers who put them into their own packages.

We took a slightly different approach for our full-spectrum UV board and used CRI90 V3F1 Nichias for efficiency (4-5% more efficient than LM301B), CRI98 Optisols for more 620-660nm, and Seoul Semi-conductor Sunllike purple-pump LEDs for the near-UV and UVA (<400-430nm).

Production Board.png


Just for comparison, here are the before and after spectrum readings for CMH and CMH + High Red.

CMH
CMH.png

CMH plus the High Red boards
CMHplusHighRed.png

While at first it looks like there's more red in the CMH spectrum, the above spectographs represent the peaks divided by the area under the curve. The more area under the curve, the lower the value of each peak. So for example the UV peak is more than double in the CMH graph above compared to the CMH+High Red, but actually both peaks represent the same amount of UV light in the grow room. From this you can see there is a lot more red relative to other other CMH spectra when the High Red LED boards are added.
 
C

christopher jordan

Well-Known Member
Grow Lights Australia said:
The LM301B and H are the same diode. LG has some very efficient UV and near-UV LEDs for good prices and I believe Epistar makes 660nm epis for most of the other manufacturers who put them into their own packages.

We took a slightly different approach for our full-spectrum UV board and used CRI90 V3F1 Nichias for efficiency (4-5% more efficient than LM301B), CRI98 Optisols for more 620-660nm, and Seoul Semi-conductor Sunllike purple-pump LEDs for the near-UV and UVA (<400-430nm).

View attachment 4462284


Just for comparison, here are the before and after spectrum readings for CMH and CMH + High Red.

CMH
View attachment 4462282

CMH plus the High Red boards
View attachment 4462283

While at first it looks like there's more red in the CMH spectrum, the above spectographs represent the peaks divided by the area under the curve. The more area under the curve, the lower the value of each peak. So for example the UV peak is more than double in the CMH graph above compared to the CMH+High Red, but actually both peaks represent the same amount of UV light in the grow room. From this you can see there is a lot more red relative to other other CMH spectra when the High Red LED boards are added.
Click to expand...
I was wondering how the Nichias compare to Osram top bin white, and reds to optisols?
 
hybridway2

hybridway2

Amare Shill
Yea, goodluck!
TheSadVeryBadMadGrower said:
Diode depreciation would need to be done with a documented measurement the day of first use, then a yr + 2 yrs later.
Click to expand...
I don't use fancy gadgets because one I cant afford them yet but I use the results under my lights....actual grows.
[/QUOTE]
By then id imagine one would either not notice for awhile, losing little by little or they'd start blaming other possible factors.
I buy the units with the best thermal mngmt possible & always top-bin to ensure longevity of output. As well as bumper to bumper 5 yr warranty.
Plenty of knock off DIY kits that are Plug m Plug n plug, then play. You can customize for this reason.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Grow Lights Australia said:
The LM301B and H are the same diode. LG has some very efficient UV and near-UV LEDs for good prices and I believe Epistar makes 660nm epis for most of the other manufacturers who put them into their own packages.

We took a slightly different approach for our full-spectrum UV board and used CRI90 V3F1 Nichias for efficiency (4-5% more efficient than LM301B), CRI98 Optisols for more 620-660nm, and Seoul Semi-conductor Sunllike purple-pump LEDs for the near-UV and UVA (<400-430nm).

View attachment 4462284


Just for comparison, here are the before and after spectrum readings for CMH and CMH + High Red.

CMH
View attachment 4462282

CMH plus the High Red boards
View attachment 4462283

While at first it looks like there's more red in the CMH spectrum, the above spectographs represent the peaks divided by the area under the curve. The more area under the curve, the lower the value of each peak. So for example the UV peak is more than double in the CMH graph above compared to the CMH+High Red, but actually both peaks represent the same amount of UV light in the grow room. From this you can see there is a lot more red relative to other other CMH spectra when the High Red LED boards are added.
Click to expand...
May I ask how many lamps have been compared in each setup? Like, eg. 4*cmh vs 2*cmh+2*ledboard? How much was the powerdraw in each setup?
 
Grow Lights Australia

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
christopher jordan said:
I was wondering how the Nichias compare to Osram top bin white, and reds to optisols?
Click to expand...
If you're referring to the latest OSCONIQ S 3030 0.2W white phosphors, on paper they look really good – even slightly better than Nichia. I say that with two caveats:

1. Nichia has just released its latest 3030 model NF2W757HT-F1. Again, on paper, it is a little bit more efficient than the NF2W757GT-V3F1 that we use and looks better than Osram's OSONIQ (which came out about a year after we chose the V3F1).

2. There is no such thing as "top bins".

That second point may surprise a few people, but the reality is when LED manufacturers advertise "top bins", the figures are mostly bragging rights because you can almost never buy the top flux/lowest voltage bins on the data-sheets. And much of the time the top flux bins are grouped with lower bins to ensure supply (Osram does this).

The reason is because the top flux bins may represent just 5% or less of total production. And within this 5%, almost none will be at the top end of the "top bin" advertised on the spec sheet. That is why LED manufacturers provide "typical" flux and voltage ratings on their data sheets to give buyers a realistic picture of what they will be buying.

For example, the 2700K Nichia CRI90 LEDs we buy come in P10d22 flux bins and K22 voltage bins. There is a K21 Vf bin, but there is no such thing as a K21 Vf/P11 Flux bin outside Nichia's lab.

There are K22/P11 bins. But you can't buy these in any quantity (because Nichia has to find buyers for the 95-98 out of 100 LEDs that you don't buy). And even if you could buy them in quantity, the "top bin" P11 ranges from 30.3-36.0 lumens per watt on the datasheet, but that doesn't mean you will get mostly 36.0lpw LEDs! That's just the highest the company has been able to achieve in that bin and you might – just might – get a few of them in a 5,000 reel of LEDs.

The P10d22 bins we get represent the minimum flux bins – which range from the upper cut of P10 (d22) to P11. So technically this is the "top bin" for production. The last time we purchased these LEDs, we bought 95% of Nichia's stock. That gives you some idea of how rare the "top bin" P11 is in that particular LED.

There is also the fact that some LED manufacturers are not honest about their performance claims. I have a test report here showing "top bin" Samsung LM301B LEDs performing 4% lower than advertised. Perhaps that was an anomaly. Or perhaps it was indicative of a wider trend. ;)
 
hillbill

hillbill

Well-Known Member
Grow Lights Australia said:
If you're referring to the latest OSCONIQ S 3030 0.2W white phosphors, on paper they look really good – even slightly better than Nichia. I say that with two caveats:

1. Nichia has just released its latest 3030 model NF2W757HT-F1. Again, on paper, it is a little bit more efficient than the NF2W757GT-V3F1 that we use and looks better than Osram's OSONIQ (which came out about a year after we chose the V3F1).

2. There is no such thing as "top bins".

That second point may surprise a few people, but the reality is when LED manufacturers advertise "top bins", the figures are mostly bragging rights because you can almost never buy the top flux/lowest voltage bins on the data-sheets. And much of the time the top flux bins are grouped with lower bins to ensure supply (Osram does this).

The reason is because the top flux bins may represent just 5% or less of total production. And within this 5%, almost none will be at the top end of the "top bin" advertised on the spec sheet. That is why LED manufacturers provide "typical" flux and voltage ratings on their data sheets to give buyers a realistic picture of what they will be buying.

For example, the 2700K Nichia CRI90 LEDs we buy come in P10d22 flux bins and K22 voltage bins. There is a K21 Vf bin, but there is no such thing as a K21 Vf/P11 Flux bin outside Nichia's lab.

There are K22/P11 bins. But you can't buy these in any quantity (because Nichia has to find buyers for the 95-98 out of 100 LEDs that you don't buy). And even if you could buy them in quantity, the "top bin" P11 ranges from 30.3-36.0 lumens per watt on the datasheet, but that doesn't mean you will get mostly 36.0lpw LEDs! That's just the highest the company has been able to achieve in that bin and you might – just might – get a few of them in a 5,000 reel of LEDs.

The P10d22 bins we get represent the minimum flux bins – which range from the upper cut of P10 (d22) to P11. So technically this is the "top bin" for production. The last time we purchased these LEDs, we bought 95% of Nichia's stock. That gives you some idea of how rare the "top bin" P11 is in that particular LED.

There is also the fact that some LED manufacturers are not honest about their performance claims. I have a test report here showing "top bin" Samsung LM301B LEDs performing 4% lower than advertised. Perhaps that was an anomaly. Or perhaps it was indicative of a wider trend. ;)
Click to expand...
You are frankly quite full of relevant information. Thanks
 
Grow Lights Australia

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
christopher jordan said:
I was wondering how the Nichias compare to Osram top bin white, and reds to optisols?
Click to expand...
I'm splitting this into two posts so they don't get too long. Its a shame LED Teknik was banned from RIU, as he posted up a 660nm showdown between the top bin Cree (G bin), top bin Osram (V5-V7), and a custom 660nm 3535 LED that cost half as much as the Osrams, and a third as much as the Crees.

If you were building a board, which one would you buy?

Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 20.59.22.png

Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 21.01.02.png

Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 21.00.06.png


There's not much in it, right? Not in terms of efficiency. But in terms of price . . . I can also tell you that with a 5-10% wider light spread (136.5 degrees), even if the custom 660nm is a few percent down on the Osram and Cree, it will blend better on a white phosphor board.

And to finally answer your question about 660nm vs Optisolis, no doubt the 660nm mono LEDs are more efficient. However, when you look at 620-630nm mono LEDs, their efficiency is way down on the 660s – in the region of 55-60% compared to over 70% for the top 660s.

The Nichia Optisolis is not as efficient due to its CRI98 phosphor, but the top bins are still around 50-55%. And what it has that the monos don't have is a lovely red spectrum all through the range. Here is the 3000K version – just look at all that 600-750nm red and far red. It basically does the job of 3 or more monos (620nm, 660nm, 730nm) without the complexity and expense, and not that far down on efficiency either. It makes a very nice blend.
OPTISOL3KSPEC.jpg
 
Grow Lights Australia

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
hybridway2

hybridway2

Amare Shill
Grow Lights Australia said:
I'm splitting this into two posts so they don't get too long. Its a shame LED Teknik was banned from RIU, as he posted up a 660nm showdown between the top bin Cree (G bin), top bin Osram (V5-V7), and a custom 660nm 3535 LED that cost half as much as the Osrams, and a third as much as the Crees.

If you were building a board, which one would you buy?

View attachment 4462765

View attachment 4462764

View attachment 4462766


There's not much in it, right? Not in terms of efficiency. But in terms of price . . . I can also tell you that with a 5-10% wider light spread (136.5 degrees), even if the custom 660nm is a few percent down on the Osram and Cree, it will blend better on a white phosphor board.

And to finally answer your question about 660nm vs Optisolis, no doubt the 660nm mono LEDs are more efficient. However, when you look at 620-630nm mono LEDs, their efficiency is way down on the 660s – in the region of 55-60% compared to over 70% for the top 660s.

The Nichia Optisolis is not as efficient due to its CRI98 phosphor, but the top bins are still around 50-55%. And what it has that the monos don't have is a lovely red spectrum all through the range. Here is the 3000K version – just look at all that 600-750nm red and far red. It basically does the job of 3 or more monos (620nm, 660nm, 730nm) without the complexity and expense, and not that far down on efficiency either. It makes a very nice blend.
View attachment 4462769
Click to expand...
Damn! That does cover 3 bands of red. Pretty impressive. Same with the opposite end of the spectrum on your other UV Boards.
Will you have the ability to offer the 2 different color boards mixed 50/50, in one board. Not the COB Salad effect but all blended into each board used?
That would be something I'd considered purchasing.
Thnx!
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Grow Lights Australia said:
Hi mate, if I understand your question correctly, there were 2x 315W CMH and 1x LED High Red double board running at 240W (at the boards). If you want to know what a "High Red" board is, I'm going to have to spam you: https://growlightsaustralia.com/product/high-light-225w-max-high-red-2800k/

:mrgreen:
Click to expand...
I'm sorry I had an error in thinking (didn't sleep much last night) but I did re-read that specific post and your right. The combined spectrum is much better.

And basically thats what alot of newer LED boards do more and more - moving closer and ever closer to imitate the suns spectrum. Hopefully one day we'll get a complete one with on/off buttons for specific spectra in order to play around with photomorphogenesis-effect and other methods of manipulation a plants development by emitted light.

thumbs up^^
 
Grow Lights Australia

Grow Lights Australia

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
Hopefully one day we'll get a complete one with on/off buttons for specific spectra in order to play around with photomorphogenesis-effect and other methods of manipulation a plants development by emitted light.

thumbs up^^
Click to expand...
That is the way LED lights are progressing. But it becomes an issue of cost and complexity. Many growers just want to set and forget, which is why we built an all-in-one board with full 400-800nm spectrum on one channel. It works, and it is simple to use compared to other LED lights with supplemental UV and far red: https://www.rollitup.org/t/thc-cbd-terpene-test-results-uva-vs-uvb-vs-none.1001617/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top