Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

CrackerJax said:

The very root of all of these problems is the very bad idea of Multiculturalism, which states that no one societies way of living is better than another. Everything becomes a matter of relativity with no anchored principles. This is the modern day liberal thought, and it is WRONG.

Capitalism IS better.
Free and unfettered markets ARE better.
Living free from the nanny state IS better.

If the entire world adopted the Ronald Reagan vision, the world would be BETTER, by far.

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So your basically stating that every other culture in the world that is working in their own little bubble is wrongs. That they should change the way that they operate since pure capitalism is the only way that they will succeed in life. Companies such as Enron thrived in ripping people off because there was no government LESS regulation to stop them from scamming the people. And the current crises that we are in is because there was because the regulations that were put int decades ago have been slowly been chipped away. Yeah looks good on paper but does not take into account the human aspect, when greedy people use the system to their own means. Then hurting every one in the process. Very hard for the market to fix itself when corporate CEOs with all of the power stop better companies from starting up by controlling the system. Bill Gates did it, he used predatory tactics to shut down the compitition. Sorry the world is not black and white, that kind of thinking is what leads free thinking being put down because a small group of people believe the world works in absolutes. So I guess a country like Sweden is going to end up failing soon. Since they have a Socialist Democratic system. The difference between the American system and their system is that they do not just throw money at the situation. They use their money in the most effiecient manner. They didn't even bail out their automobile industry since they beleived that the companies were not producing the products that the market wanted, so why should they save them. So are you willing to have police force, fire department, and all other services privatized. Do you actually believe that the comanies that control these services will have your best interest, or the interest of how much money can they get out of you. You also assume that everyone culture is in essence the same, sorry they are not, and assuming that they are is nothing but arrogance.

dontexist21 said:

So your basically stating that every other culture in the world that is working in their own little bubble is wrongs. That they should change the way that they operate since pure capitalism is the only way that they will succeed in life. Companies such as Enron thrived in ripping people off because there was no government LESS regulation to stop them from scamming the people. And the current crises that we are in is because there was because the regulations that were put int decades ago have been slowly been chipped away. Yeah looks good on paper but does not take into account the human aspect, when greedy people use the system to their own means. Then hurting every one in the process. Very hard for the market to fix itself when corporate CEOs with all of the power stop better companies from starting up by controlling the system. Bill Gates did it, he used predatory tactics to shut down the compitition. Sorry the world is not black and white, that kind of thinking is what leads free thinking being put down because a small group of people believe the world works in absolutes. So I guess a country like Sweden is going to end up failing soon. Since they have a Socialist Democratic system. The difference between the American system and their system is that they do not just throw money at the situation. They use their money in the most effiecient manner. They didn't even bail out their automobile industry since they beleived that the companies were not producing the products that the market wanted, so why should they save them. So are you willing to have police force, fire department, and all other services privatized. Do you actually believe that the comanies that control these services will have your best interest, or the interest of how much money can they get out of you. You also assume that everyone culture is in essence the same, sorry they are not, and assuming that they are is nothing but arrogance.

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If you are talking about patent and copyright law you are right about the former which is routinely abused by corporations due to how it is designed, but wrong about copyright law, on which the corporations that abuse it rely upon government extensions of copyrights to benefit them.

Though I also think that patent law needs to be reformed so that people that file patents and then do not use them are not able to sue corporations for infringing upon them. Just because some one has the same idea a bit later should not be used as a reason to use legal force and coercion to prevent them from using it. Especially when the person that claimed they had the idea first failed to apply it.

Application of Patents should be the test used in patent cases, whether it is through active attempts to license it to others for their use, or through actively attempting to use it for one's own commercial interests.

TheBrutalTruth said:

If you are talking about patent and copyright law you are right about the former which is routinely abused by corporations due to how it is designed, but wrong about copyright law, on which the corporations that abuse it rely upon government extensions of copyrights to benefit them.

Though I also think that patent law needs to be reformed so that people that file patents and then do not use them are not able to sue corporations for infringing upon them. Just because some one has the same idea a bit later should not be used as a reason to use legal force and coercion to prevent them from using it. Especially when the person that claimed they had the idea first failed to apply it.

Application of Patents should be the test used in patent cases, whether it is through active attempts to license it to others for their use, or through actively attempting to use it for one's own commercial interests.

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Not just that, the way that certain corporations have magical abilities, which makes them seem as if they had turned a profit when they can not show how they did it. Or how credit cards companies use predatory tactics to get squeeze money out of people. Did you know that most of the food that we eat today is controlled by a handful of companies. Much of the food genetically engineered, and untested to see if its fit for human consumption. The corp. do not care, its cheaper for them, so why should they care about the health of the common consumer. The patent laws need be changed especially since now corp. can patent life, that scares me a whole lot more then the government. Now do not get me wrong I do not hate corp., I just hate it when they abuse their consumers. Who would stop them in a "free market"?

dontexist21 said:

Not just that, the way that certain corporations have magical abilities. Which makes them seem as if they had turned a profit when they can not show how they did it. Or how credit cards companies use predatory tactics to get squeeze money out of people. Did you know that most of the food that we eat today is controlled by a handful of companies. Much of the food genetically engineered, and untested to see if its fit for human consumption. The corp. do not care, its cheaper for them, so why should they care about the health of my family. The patent laws need be changed especially since now corp. can patent life, that scares me a whole lot more then the government. Now do not get me wrong I do not hate corp., I just hate it when they abuse their consumers. Who would stop them in a "free market"?

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Who enshrines them further and further in the mixed economy?

The government has proven that it will not stand up for the citizens, and thus should abdicate its power, at least at a federal level. The states and communities should be the one's regulating the corporations as they will not only have the interests of the local farmers and workers in mind, but they will also not be subject to the kind of corrupting influence that the corporations can exert on national politics.

It is much easier for a grassroots movement to succeed in a state or a county than at a national level. It is also much more likely that any investigation of suspected corruption at a state or local level would go further because the reporters would believe that they have a more personal interest in uncovering the corruption.

I do not see government, not in its current, inefficient, corrupt form protecting the citizenry from those that would do them harm. I see the government assisting in the rape.

No, the only choice we as citizens have is to protect ourselves, and become knowledgable about the quality of the food that we eat. To abrogate that responsibility to government just leaves us that much more defenseless when it cooperates with corporations, or worse, acts like an abusive corporation itself.

TheBrutalTruth said:

Who enshrines them further and further in the mixed economy?

The government has proven that it will not stand up for the citizens, and thus should abdicate its power, at least at a federal level. The states and communities should be the one's regulating the corporations as they will not only have the interests of the local farmers and workers in mind, but they will also not be subject to the kind of corrupting influence that the corporations can exert on national politics.

It is much easier for a grassroots movement to succeed in a state or a county than at a national level. It is also much more likely that any investigation of suspected corruption at a state or local level would go further because the reporters would believe that they have a more personal interest in uncovering the corruption.

I do not see government, not in its current, inefficient, corrupt form protecting the citizenry from those that would do them harm. I see the government assisting in the rape.

No, the only choice we as citizens have is to protect ourselves, and become knowledgable about the quality of the food that we eat. To abrogate that responsibility to government just leaves us that much more defenseless when it cooperates with corporations, or worse, acts like an abusive corporation itself.

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I do see your point that government in state that it is no better then the corp we fear. But no amount of reporting is going to stop certain corp. Such as the credit card companies. It took decades for the government to do something. I am still waiting on the out come, it is just hard to trust my "elected" officials. Certain institutions are just so powerful that they have a vice grip on the people. If you do not have credit you can not do certain things such as buy a house. The problem with the government is that it stopped caring about the people a long time ago. We should be able to hold our officials accountable for every action that they make, for every dollar that they spend. The people can not do that with out education. Knowledge is power, and the power is in the hands of a handful of super powerful families and corp. Any one who believes we do not have a monarchy is a fool. We have one, its just hidden. That is why I believe are major concern should be our education system.

dontexist21 said:

So your basically stating that every other culture in the world that is working in their own little bubble is wrongs. That they should change the way that they operate since pure capitalism is the only way that they will succeed in life. Companies such as Enron thrived in ripping people off because there was no government LESS regulation to stop them from scamming the people. And the current crises that we are in is because there was because the regulations that were put int decades ago have been slowly been chipped away. Yeah looks good on paper but does not take into account the human aspect, when greedy people use the system to their own means. Then hurting every one in the process. Very hard for the market to fix itself when corporate CEOs with all of the power stop better companies from starting up by controlling the system. Bill Gates did it, he used predatory tactics to shut down the compitition. Sorry the world is not black and white, that kind of thinking is what leads free thinking being put down because a small group of people believe the world works in absolutes. So I guess a country like Sweden is going to end up failing soon. Since they have a Socialist Democratic system. The difference between the American system and their system is that they do not just throw money at the situation. They use their money in the most effiecient manner. They didn't even bail out their automobile industry since they beleived that the companies were not producing the products that the market wanted, so why should they save them. So are you willing to have police force, fire department, and all other services privatized. Do you actually believe that the comanies that control these services will have your best interest, or the interest of how much money can they get out of you. You also assume that everyone culture is in essence the same, sorry they are not, and assuming that they are is nothing but arrogance.

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No country works within a bubble.... so your point is MOOT.

But let's say North Korea does live in a bubble and troubles absolutely no one outside its borders, but is harsh and cruel to its citizenry (it is). You feel then we have no right to judge what they are doing to HUMAN BEINGS?

We are the light of the world. The darkness needs to be illuminated to bring about change.

CrackerJax said:

No country works within a bubble.... so your point is MOOT.

But let's say North Korea does live in a bubble and troubles absolutely no one outside its borders, but is harsh and cruel to its citizenry (it is). You feel then we have no right to judge what they are doing to HUMAN BEINGS?

We are the light of the world. The darkness needs to be illuminated to bring about change.

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I never said that we live in a bubble, I stated that the way that THEY see the world is different then the way that YOU see the world. But does that mean you can force your way of life onto someone else. If a country works in a system that is different from yours does it give you the right to force your views on them. Sweden system works, but sure as hell is not capitalism, should we force our views on them. Our system is not perfect, Capitalism like everything is only nice on paper. If you meant we as in America, as the light of the world. Then we have not really been living up to that. America done so much harm that you can not even say that. Using the CIA agents to go into other countries to support dictators just because they did not agree with America views. Our system is not perfect, we should never force our views on anyone. I am not saying we should not condemn human suffering, I do not think any culture supports suffering of its people. So if we ever decided to help them we would not be forcing our views on them. Completely different then going into a country and using under handed tactics to put in a person that is more favorable to America, yet does not cares for their people.

dontexist21 said:

I do see your point that government in state that it is no better then the corp we fear. But no amount of reporting is going to stop certain corp. Such as the credit card companies. It took decades for the government to do something. I am still waiting on the out come, it is just hard to trust my "elected" officials. Certain institutions are just so powerful that they have a vice grip on the people. If you do not have credit you can not do certain things such as buy a house. The problem with the government is that it stopped caring about the people a long time ago. We should be able to hold our officials accountable for every action that they make, for every dollar that they spend. The people can not do that with out education. Knowledge is power, and the power is in the hands of a handful of super powerful families and corp. Any one who believes we do not have a monarchy is a fool. We have one, its just hidden. That is why I believe are major concern should be our education system.

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The education system neglects giving the kind of focus that is needed to economics and history. With out economic knowledge it is impossible for citizens to survive financially. With out knowledge of history it is impossible for them to see when the same mistakes are being repeated.

You are right, the education system needs to be reformed completely, but I just don't see how that can be accomplished with out the support of the Teachers' Union (which it seems unwilling to give) or with out some one that is willing to land on them like a sledgehammer and land on those that would try to force students to learn skills that bear limited relevance to the real world.

I can not understand why we have schools obsessed with forcing foreign languages or other requisite electives down student's throats when so many of them are left ignorant of history and economics. It is impossible for any one that is not able to take care of themselves financially to be a good citizen as they will be obsessed with staving off their starvation. I can not understand the need of the above when so many are ignorant of history.

I don't have anything against corporations. Not all of them are the power-mongering bottom-line fueled monstrosities like those of the Fortune 500.

I do have a problem with corporations that attempt to influence elections through their name. I can not believe that the founder's of our nation would have ever consented to grant corporations the same rights of free speech, free expression and free press to corporations as they are not men.

I also have a problem with bureaucrats that refuse to take the moral highground and refuse to accept donations from corporations, or people that are advocating they support just this corporation or that corporation above all others. It strikes me as more absurd when we have the government involved in the market place, because then we are caught in a situation where we must try to figure out just who is guarding the guards. How can we trust a government sanctified monopoly when such corporations have a record of abuse, negligence and corruption?

One only need to look at the British East India Company and how its driving focus to protect its bottom line in the America's lead to the Revolutionary War. It was a government-sanctified monopoly that was able to count on the support of its owners (typically members of the House of Lords) to use legislative force to dictate to the colonies.

Then there was the fact that the Bank of England was afraid of the usage of land-based currency in the United States.

History is full of examples of what happens when you allow the government to cooperate too closely with corporations. The results are often disasterous.

No, I can not believe that a government that is able to control every aspect of our lives, especially one that has a track record similar to our own where it has turned over responsibilities that it should not have to corporations, will not not abuse that power to our (the citizens) detriment.

dontexist21 said:

So your basically stating that every other culture in the world that is working in their own little bubble is wrongs.

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Oh I guess I misread that?

CrackerJax said:

Oh I guess I misread that?

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That was my fault for thinking one thing and typing another, I do that sometimes. I meant to say every society that works in their own system is wrong under your reasoning. Even if I had meant that North Korea is not a working system, far from it. I do not think any sane person would believe that North Korea is working system.

jrh72582 said:

Dude, my point is so simple, but you're still not getting it. At least three people equated socialism to slavery in this thread. You haven't used the word slavery, but you do believe socialism is immoral because it forces a will upon people. My response is simple. Socialism is NOT slavery and it is NOT immoral because people have the free will to deny being subject to those laws by leaving. If they closed off the borders, allowing no one to leave, and then forced their will upon us, I would be pissed. But they will not do that. They are adopting a new government, which the people generally agree with, and it is not slavery. Slavery, by definition, is when you force someone to work under you, not allowing them to leave. You are allowed to leave whenever, so it's not slavery and it's not immoral. Every country has laws. Every country has a government. The people in the US want something different. They're tired of the rich controlling everything. They're tired of the dissipation of the American dream. They're tired of the 15% controlling 85% and getting the short end of the stick. So they think that maybe, if we tax the hell out of the rich and give everybody the same benefits, they will be subjugated less.

Every government subjugates those that it governs. Under the old way, the people were subjugated by the rich and their health benefits and access to education eroded. Under a socialist rule, the people will still be subjugated, but better off because of the access to health care and education. Both options aren't ideal, but I would take socialism over capitalism any day. I've heard many people say on this board that capitalism allows for ANY individual to realize the American dream and to get rich through hard work and industry. HA - that's laughable. Hard work doesn't get the vast majority anywhere. Under this capitalist system, the vast majority are much more enslaved than they would be under a socialist system. Hard work - what a bunch of crap. The next time you hear someone say that hard work leads to riches, ask them if they're rich. I bet they're not. Remember, and this is important - a free lesson if you will.......

the biggest trick the rich every played is to convince the middle class (all these right wing whiners) to blame the lower class for their problems, instead of blaming the rich, who are to blame for their subordinate position. Think about it. You all blame the poor, lazy, and unfortunate. Why do you not blame the rich who designed an unfair system allowing you NOTHING? They are to blame and that is why socialism could help. The rich will be taxed and although not ideal, the poor will at least get education and health care. It's better than the alternative that your precious capitalism offers. You're more of a 'slave' under capitalism than socialism, my friend. You're merely blinded by your dogmatic one-sidedness.

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So here's where we are now...
You believe you know what's best for others and would use the violence of government to achieve it. Got it.

You accept Government subjugation and extortion. You would MAKE people do your bidding. Got it.

You think hard work is ineffective. Got it.

You think if people don't like to be subjugated they should leave the country. Except for you when it comes to pot laws. Got it.

Okay here's what I believe...I own my life, you own yours. If a person harms nobody they should be left to make their own choices about their life, their property and their money.

Charity is good when it is freely given.
When it is not freely given it's not charity, it's theft even if some douchebag politician makes the theft "legal".

I do not blame the rich, the poor or the middle class. I blame those people that think they know what's best for others and who are willing to use force to achieve it regardless of their finances.

Socialism relies on force, to derive any of its dubious benefits. Therefore it's wrong. So are you if you
would FORCE anyone to participate in it.

Tacit consent is an erroneus rationalization. Leaving the country etc. is an assinine solution to avoid subjugation. I believe it was David Hume for one that gave a good explanation of why tacit consent is bullshit.

You call me onesided. Yet, I advocate free will and free choice. You do not and still you claim the moral high ground? That's a mite contradictory...onesided even.

Rob Roy said:

So here's where we are now...
You believe you know what's best for others and would use the violence of government to achieve it. Got it.

You accept Government subjugation and extortion. You would MAKE people do your bidding. Got it.

You think hard work is ineffective. Got it.

You think if people don't like to be subjugated they should leave the country. Except for you when it comes to pot laws. Got it.

Okay here's what I believe...I own my life, you own yours. If a person harms nobody they should be left to make their own choices about their life, their property and their money.

Charity is good when it is freely given.
When it is not freely given it's not charity, it's theft even if some douchebag politician makes the theft "legal".

I do not blame the rich, the poor or the middle class. I blame those people that think they know what's best for others and who are willing to use force to achieve it regardless of their finances.

Socialism relies on force, to derive any of its dubious benefits. Therefore it's wrong. So are you if you
would FORCE anyone to participate in it.

Tacit consent is an erroneus rationalization. Leaving the country etc. is an assinine solution to avoid subjugation. I believe it was David Hume for one that gave a good explanation of why tacit consent is bullshit.

You call me onesided. Yet, I advocate free will and free choice. You do not and still you claim the moral high ground? That's a mite contradictory...onesided even.

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Holy shit! Are you real? Did you really draw these conclusions about my beliefs? If you're not fucking with me, you are really really unintelligent. When did the government ever FORCE you to do anything? Explain when 'the government' knocked down your door and forced you to act? Only YOU are responsible for yourself. You make your own decisions in life. Don't blame the government. Only the individual is to blame for his actions. By this logic, the government never forced you to do shit. YOU HAVE FREE WILL! The government can NEVER take that. That's the only argument I made you whiny little man. And you still don't get it.

jrh72582 said:

Holy shit! Are you real? Did you really draw these conclusions about my beliefs? If you're not fucking with me, you are really really unintelligent. When did the government ever FORCE you to do anything? Explain when 'the government' knocked down your door and forced you to act? Only YOU are responsible for yourself. You make your own decisions in life. Don't blame the government. Only the individual is to blame for his actions. By this logic, the government never forced you to do shit. YOU HAVE FREE WILL! The government can NEVER take that. That's the only argument I made you whiny little man. And you still don't get it.

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Your post doesn't match up with your position. The govt. can most CERTAINLY take away your free will. You need to take a political science class or two....or three.

CrackerJax said:

Your post doesn't match up with your position. The govt. can most CERTAINLY take away your free will. You need to take a political science class or two....or three.

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I've taken way more than that. In fact, I teach grad students political philosophy beginning in August. It's true......

You challenged my ethos, and lost my friend.

Then you haven't learned much I'm afraid. Perhaps you need to look up "free will".

Well first of all jrh I'm not a little man. Not whiny either. You should reread your posts and mine, it's all right there.
Switching gears in a debate to employ insults is a sign of emotional immaturity. I'm okay with my intelligence level, are you saying disagreeing with you is a sign of stupidity?

Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. Government is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

When has government ever knocked on my door? Nearly every aspect of your life has an element of government in it.
whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

His posts show a basic lack of understanding.

CrackerJax said:

His posts show a basic lack of understanding.

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I agree . I'd comment further on that but I have to go practice my whiny little man unintelligent faces in the mirror now.

CrackerJax said:

Then you haven't learned much I'm afraid. Perhaps you need to look up "free will".

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I speak of the existential notion of free will. You always have it. You can never lose it. A government can tell you not to kill, but you certainly have the freedom to kill. A government can make suggestions and enact laws, but only the individual is responsible for his actions. Think Nietzsche, Sartre, Kierkegaard, and company. Free Will.

Rob Roy said:

Well first of all jrh I'm not a little man. Not whiny either. You should reread your posts and mine, it's all right there.
Switching gears in a debate to employ insults is a sign of emotional immaturity. I'm okay with my intelligence level, are you saying disagreeing with you is a sign of stupidity?

Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. Government is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

When has government ever knocked on my door? Nearly every aspect of your life has an element of government in it.
whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

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I resorted to name calling because I spelled out my point to you five times and you either could not understand it or refused to understand it, arguing with me all the while. I HATE arguing with someone who refuses to even attempt an understanding of his opponent's points.

And then, you made a list of points that I absolutely DO NOT believe, attempting to straw man me. I do not appreciate that. That is the ultimate sign of intellectual immaturity. Anyone with an education knows to NEVER resort to logical fallacy to win arguments (except for lawyers). You do not know that and thus, I assume you are uneducated.