Why cut leaves in half when cloning.

Dannydavito · May 24, 2020

I've often heard that you should cut leaves in half to reduce transpiration, which is a sound idea and definitely works. However wouldn't it make more sense to simply remove more leaves entirely. Two leaves will produce the same amount of transpiration as four leaves cut in half correct? If you plan on cutting two leaves in half you could just remove one more leaf entirely for the same effect. I may be wrong but cutting leaves in half seems more stressful and damaging than simply removing more leaves. Any thoughts?

NeWcS · May 24, 2020

I always did it not make for better air flow, and room in the cloner or dome. I guess I didn't remove them to try and retain some of the structure of the clone while still making room.

MICHI-CAN · May 24, 2020

Dannydavito said:
I've often heard that you should cut leaves in half to reduce transpiration, which is a sound idea and definitely works. However wouldn't it make more sense to simply remove more leaves entirely. Two leaves will produce the same amount of transpiration as four leaves cut in half correct? If you plan on cutting two leaves in half you could just remove one more leaf entirely for the same effect. I may be wrong but cutting leaves in half seems more stressful and damaging than simply removing more leaves. Any thoughts?

I am no phd. But my years have lead me to believe that cutting the leaves actually reduces transpiration due to the plant sending less resources to a damaged leaf than a healthy one. I've tried side by side comparisons. I always cut leaves now. I have beautiful clones everytime. Just my 2 cents after growing everything for almost half a century. Good luck and keep questioning everything.

Renfro · May 24, 2020

I only cut them when I am packing a tray full of 50 cuttings and I don't want them covering up the tops of other cuts.

Dannydavito · May 24, 2020

MICHI-CAN said:
I am no phd. But my years have lead me to believe that cutting the leaves actually reduces transpiration due to the plant sending less resources to a damaged leaf than a healthy one. I've tried side by side comparisons. I always cut leaves now. I have beautiful clones everytime. Just my 2 cents after growing everything for almost half a century. Good luck and keep questioning everything. View attachment 4575559

Interesting idea! This is why I ask questions on here always nice to hear peoples reasoning for techniques.

Renfro said:
I only cut them when I am packing a tray full of 50 cuttings and I don't want them covering up the tops of other cuts.

Thanks for chiming in ren always appreciate reading your posts!

2Hearts · May 24, 2020

No one has to cut clone leaves but some come with mooohassive fan leaves and when cut ressemble a smaller sized leaf so actually quiteca perfect option.

Some plants you cant cut leaves when cloning like cacti and succulents, some you wouldnt bother because they are already small.

Intuition tells me a clone with many small leaves is better than one with two big ones but im not going to try back that up it just seems right.

Agronut · May 24, 2020

I cut all but the top two or three at the meristem, like the really small ones.....when they start to droop down i know i have roots.

Miniweed94 · May 25, 2020

By cutting the leaves it forces the plant to focus on establishing roots instead of taking in light to build the canopy. Thats what i have always learned.

Coalcat · May 25, 2020

I use a homemade bubble cloner and have always just popped them in without cutting the leaves. Maybe next time I’ll chop some leaves in half for the fun of it. I don’t know about the focus on the roots thing...they don’t grow any bigger until roots start to show. The transpiration makes sense, but I think that would only apply to dirt or plugs.

Dannydavito · May 25, 2020

Coalcat said:
I use a homemade bubble cloner and have always just popped them in without cutting the leaves. Maybe next time I’ll chop some leaves in half for the fun of it. I don’t know about the focus on the roots thing...they don’t grow any bigger until roots start to show. The transpiration makes sense, but I think that would only apply to dirt or plugs.

Yeah you probably don't have to worry about transpiration issues in a bubbler but give a few a cut and see if you notice a difference!

Samwell Seed Well · May 25, 2020

I always cut 1/3 -2/3 of the leaf tissue. This slows s
Transportation extending the healthy life of the cutting. And also helps with uniformity of cuts and spacing. When you have large zones uniform cuts with uniform growth from clone has a big advantage from the start.

I also remove all but the the 1st and second nodes and only leave 2 fan leaves. One for each node. Commercially id cut 400-600 a week and shrink would br around 3-6%

xtsho · May 25, 2020

Sometimes I cut sometimes I don't. The last few times I didn't cut and still had 100% root within 10 days.

Dannydavito · May 25, 2020

xtsho said:
Sometimes I cut sometimes I don't. The last few times I didn't cut and still had 100% root within 10 days.

Interesting, it makes me wonder why this advice is given as often as it is. From these responses the benefits of cutting leaves seems minor. I need to think about this more.
I guess maybe beginner cloners don't have their environment under control so cutting leaves is reccomended as a bandaid? But the fact that many experienced growers still do it makes me think there is something more to it.

xtsho · May 25, 2020

Dannydavito said:
Interesting, it makes me wonder why this advice is given as often as it is. From these responses the benefits of cutting leaves seems minor. I need to think about this more.
I guess maybe beginner cloners don't have their environment under control so cutting leaves is reccomended as a bandaid? But the fact that many experienced growers still do it makes me think there is something more to it.

So many things cannabis growers do are unnecessary. There is a lot of broscience out there based on nothing more than someone else does it. Kind of like the new growers putting a SCROG net in their grow tent and not even scrogging. But what do you expect when most cannabis growers are baked all day long. :bigjoint:

Dannydavito · May 25, 2020

xtsho said:
So many things cannabis growers do are unnecessary. There is a lot of broscience out there based on nothing more than someone else does it. Kind of like the new growers putting a SCROG net in their grow tent and not even scrogging. But what do you expect when most cannabis growers are baked all day long.

I may be naive but my hope is to help clear up some of the broscience in the cannabis community, a little at a time. I want to be able to help people and to do that I need to know what works, and more importantly why it works. Not to say that people can't do what works for them but if I'm recomending a technique I need to understand it completely. Optimisation is the dream. That said I have a lot of learning to do before I can achieve my goal. Cheers and thanks for the help

Samwell Seed Well · May 25, 2020

It's only bro science untill its not... heres a write up on cutting the stem at a 45....

Its a very simply concept. Less stomata, less transpiration.

Remember lack of evidence is not evidence. And cutting your main fan leaves 100% has an affect on growth, transpiration. All things you are attempting to control while cloneing to induce more root growth.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6422331/

Dannydavito · May 25, 2020

Samwell Seed Well said:
It's only bro science untill its not... heres a write up on cutting the stem at a 45....

Its a very simply concept. Less stomata, less transpiration.

Remember lack of evidence is not evidence. And cutting your main fan leaves 100% has an affect on growth, transpiration. All things you are attempting to control while cloneing to induce more root growth.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6422331/

I agree 100 percent that cutting leaves reduces transpiration. I just cannot definitively say that it is anymore effective than cutting an entire leaf. It also seems that unless the environment is extremely inoptimal decreased transpiration isn't required. The one thing I haven't pinned down is if damaging leaves partially induces faster root development through some type of damage response. I haven't written this specifically off as pseudoscience but the reasoning behind it seems to be largely undeveloped in the majority of the community which could be fixed. If we do something we should know why we do it.
Also I don't understand the relevance of the point on cutting at 45. That's a whole different ball game to what I'm talking about.

Angus Hung · May 25, 2020

Samwell Seed Well said:
I always cut 1/3 -2/3 of the leaf tissue. This slows s
Transportation extending the healthy life of the cutting. And also helps with uniformity of cuts and spacing. When you have large zones uniform cuts with uniform growth from clone has a big advantage from the start.

I also remove all but the the 1st and second nodes and only leave 2 fan leaves. One for each node. Commercially id cut 400-600 a week and shrink would br around 3-6%

Good looking clone shop you have got. keep up the good work

Samwell Seed Well · May 25, 2020

Dannydavito said:
I agree 100 percent that cutting leaves reduces transpiration. I just cannot definitively say that it is anymore effective than cutting an entire leaf. It also seems that unless the environment is extremely inoptimal decreased transpiration isn't required. The one thing I haven't pinned down is if damaging leaves partially induces faster root development through some type of damage response. I haven't written this specifically off as pseudoscience but the reasoning behind it seems to be largely undeveloped in the majority of the community which could be fixed. If we do something we should know why we do it.
Also I don't understand the relevance of the point on cutting at 45. That's a whole different ball game to what I'm talking about.

You put the clones in a close to 100% humidity enviroment for the same reasons, close stomata.

Theirs also links to fan growth and auxin/cytokin production which would happen once the plant no longer has viable leaves to photosythesis

Theirs bro science...like flushing thens theirs natural biological process we can utilize to illicit a specific response. In the case of flushing actually allowing a plant to finish...versus lechate to finish

I cut , i produced many identical crops cuts as a result. I'll go with the 17k plants i produced last year with some plant science anyday as empirical suggested proof...

Dannydavito · May 25, 2020

Samwell Seed Well said:
You put the clones in a close to 100% humidity enviroment for the same reasons, close stomata.

Theirs also links to fan growth and auxin/cytokin production which would happen once the plant no longer has viable leaves to photosythesis

Theirs bro science...like flushing thens theirs natural biological process we can utilize to illicit a specific responsee.

I cut , i produced many identical crops cuts as a result. I'll go with the 17k plants i produced last year with some plant science anyday as empirical suggested proof...

Wow 17k plants is more than I can imagine, I'll stick with my small home garden haha. It seems like you have figured out your own strategies based on your knowledge and wisdom. I don't have nearly as much experience as you but I enjoy learning by reading about the inner workings of the plant and making logical deductions. I also enjoy being corrected because it means I learned something. Thanks for the help!

Why cut leaves in half when cloning.

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