WOW Riddle has a question???

whiteflour · Jun 12, 2010

Thanks bro. I definitely find this place to be confusing like you. Having not grown in quite a while I come here with the expectations of finding A LOT of good information. But with the exception of UB, BrickTop, and a few others I don't find much more than a lot of contradiction. I think it mostly comes from people just going off and trying things with no basis for comparison, or not understanding why something was done by someone else. I made those mistakes at first!

When I was 16-17 I set out with the "super cropping" high times and a really big dream. Topped and fimmed all my plants (those that managed to germinate in paper towels and survive the tansplant anyway), used funky ferts, and tried an odd array of things that just looked and sounded GREAT; not much more. Well my dad caught me with plants, but instead of getting mad like I expected, he just said "boy you sure are fuckin those things up". So, I showed him my book, probably acted like a know it all, and he left it at that.

Come harvest time he showed me his plants, hidden away in the neighbors corn rows, and give me the Cultivators Handbook of Marijuana. Needless to say I read that book and started listening to him from there on out. I've tried a lot of different things since but I always find myself going right back to the old fashioned, proven ways.

riddleme · Jun 12, 2010

great story, I too agree with UB and Bricktop Fdd and a few others, was actually hoping they would join this debate as I love UB's description of flushing at the end

Plant is not a toilet you can't flush it ,,,,,,,,,priceless lol

Murfy · Jun 12, 2010

agreed-

less is more, but with more commercial companies switching to compost tea style fert's, molasses included, it's easy to see the benefits of organic gardening, especially quality wise

i also use molasses, and try to be very sparing with the salts, and i also "flush", although i consider it to be more or less quitting the salts, rather than flushing

and there are others, yourselves included, with good, solid, researched, info

thanks guys

bongtokinjuggalo · Jun 13, 2010

Im comin in this conversation kinda late, but....

I use both organic nutes and chemical. I grow outdoors, and I mix a handful of organic fertilizer in the soil a month before transplant (so microbes can break them down) then when I transplant I use chemical nutes. Then I dont need nutes for like a month or so and my plants seem to love it! They grow an average of 2 inches a day.

Now then, before I knew about flushing I just gave nutes up until harvest, but I think its something about these nutes or something i dont know about, but my plants always come out smelling and tasting kinda sweet and fruity, even without curing. And the smoke is about as harsh as any street bud you get in my area.

So I dont know how true the whole flushing thing is, but I will probably do it anyways for better tastes this year. I got a baby that looks like shes gonna give at least a half lb dry =)

riddleme · Jun 13, 2010

Ok I admit that my question was a loaded one, designed to get folks to think and discuss/debate

I actually expected more haters on this one

It is not uncommon for it to rain in nature prior to harvest time so a flush of your medium is not wrong, it only takes 1 to 3 hours for water to reach the top of the plant during normal transporation so one extended flush prior to harvest is enough to cleanse the plants system

but here is the rub that most don't take the time to understand it is not the nutes or the chemicals that make the smoke harsh it is the sugars that the plant produces (burn some sugar and see what happens) when we "properly" dry and cure the fermentation process converts these sugars to alcohol and gives us the taste we are looking for. Most growers do not take the time to understand this process and therefore are unaware that N is required for the plant to perform this process.

I'm not saying that an MJ grower needs to know what ATP's, AGE's or NAD's are but they should at least take the time to know what the plant is doing when it dies and how this affects our smoke as this makes for a better end product

whiteflour · Jun 13, 2010

I think it all comes down to patience. Anybody that has picked buds early or smoked without cure knows the vast difference time, more than anything, can bring. People started hearing that chlorophyll makes the weed taste like hay, confused that with harsh (from chems), and got the grand idea to flush for two weeks instead of two waterings. Sounds great in paper, but then again if you're going to deprive the plant of its food and make it eat itself, why not just get it over with and harvest early?

It would seem obvious the plant isn't going to have any dramatic growth improvement if you're putting it in to survival mode, rather than continuing production. I certainly agree feeding until the end is optimal, but I wouldn't gutload my plants before I picked them either. My grandma always swore by feeding melons sugar water the last week for a sweeter fruit, I can't say how true it is for them, but I didn't find it making a difference with MJ.

ElectricPineapple · Jun 15, 2010

so whats the conclusion to this. are we just flushing the salts out of the soil when we flush? and wouldnt only two maybe three flushes be fine. not two weeks of flushing?

IAm5toned · Jun 15, 2010

thats pretty much it....

i flush to keep my soil ph from getting out of control from salt build up. never noticed any other benefit from it, but then i never use chem ferts in the end anyways.

riddleme · Jun 15, 2010

ElectricPineapple said:
so whats the conclusion to this. are we just flushing the salts out of the soil when we flush? and wouldnt only two maybe three flushes be fine. not two weeks of flushing?

actually I just posted a ditty on harvesting, drying & curing in my calling all noob growers thread (page 41) and actually the thread is full of ditty's I write but bottom line is most of what folks do is wrong and for the wrong reasons. The curing (fermentation) process requires N to work properly. If only everyone took the time to understand the why of what we do?????

Murfy · Jun 15, 2010

so at that rate the flush or rain at the end is bad? as it removes the nitrogen required to metabolize the sugars?, and feeding until the end is not as big of a deal

i would like to know your thought process to the question riddleme?
and you've given me so much info to digest, ihave no time to research ATP's, AGE's or NAD's now, how about a quick summary

riddleme · Jun 15, 2010

Murfy said:
so at that rate the flush or rain at the end is bad? as it removes the nitrogen required to metabolize the sugars?, and feeding until the end is not as big of a deal

i would like to know your thought process to the question riddleme?
and you've given me so much info to digest, ihave no time to research ATP's, AGE's or NAD's now, how about a quick summary

actually there are a lot more (I just threw out 3, lol) covered in a ditty about oxidation on page 40 same thread it is how the plant processes the sugars into alcohol during fermentation, (which requires N) atp's and nad's are part of that process age's is about flavors

Polecat · Jun 15, 2010

riddleme said:
actually I just posted a ditty on harvesting, drying & curing in my calling all noob growers thread (page 41) and actually the thread is full of ditty's I write but bottom line is most of what folks do is wrong and for the wrong reasons. The curing (fermentation) process requires N to work properly. If only everyone took the time to understand the why of what we do?????

I'm trying to learn. But to much conflicting info. I.E. this post. I am taking riddle mes advice for now. seems like good info in here some were.

riddleme · Jun 15, 2010

Polecat said:
I'm trying to learn. But to much conflicting info. I.E. this post. I am taking riddle mes advice for now. seems like good info in here some were.

Thanks, I try to share what I know and what I learn, and back it up with legitimate sources, my thing is put it out there for others to read and decide for themselves, I'm a teacher not a preacher

ElectricPineapple · Jun 15, 2010

so, dont flush? except maybe once or twice? this just changes EVERYTHING haha. well i get quite a bit of runoff on each watering. and my grow is mostly organic, besides a few additives. btw have you used, or had any experience with Snow Storm Ultra, and Bloombastic?

Murfy · Jun 15, 2010

ok read up on the other, and it's VERY interesting

drown your plants instead of cuttin em, i knew an old hippie who would boil the root balls of his harvested plants, and swore by it, does that tie in to this somehow?

riddleme · Jun 16, 2010

ElectricPineapple said:
so, dont flush? except maybe once or twice? this just changes EVERYTHING haha. well i get quite a bit of runoff on each watering. and my grow is mostly organic, besides a few additives. btw have you used, or had any experience with Snow Storm Ultra, and Bloombastic?

Sorry I do chemicals as I like total control, and I do not use any cute name canna products, not saying some don't work but I prefer to only spend a few dollars

Murfy said:
ok read up on the other, and it's VERY interesting

drown your plants instead of cuttin em, i knew an old hippie who would boil the root balls of his harvested plants, and swore by it, does that tie in to this somehow?

It is possible I could see where it would speed up the starving of O2 process but have not seen anything in my research that mentions it
perhaps another experiment is in order???

cowboylogic · Jun 16, 2010

riddleme said:
I think that in my time here at RIU I have actually asked 3 questions (I could be wrong) but I think I have a question that could spark some good discussion, allow me to preface it a bit,,,,,,,,,,,

Some of you know that I'm in my 50's so been around awhile, I have noticed in my everyday life that common sense seems to be disappearing from our culture, though I am not sure why. I have learned to happily live my life based on common sense, logic and deductive reasoning. I make choices after doing research (and I do deep research, actually trying to prove myself, idea or belief wrong)

I was reading a thread earlier and this question popped into my head, it was a question that I could not answer, but common sense tells me that it does not make any sense what so ever and all of my research tells me that it is nonsense?

So let me ask and lets get the debate going cause I actually am very curious,,,,,,

It is a very common/popular belief/practice to stop feeding nutes and flush only during the last 2 weeks before harvest, this is based on the notion that we are removing nutes from the plant to improve taste and reduce harshness. The result of this practice is that the plant starts pulling stored nutes from the leaves and the leaves start yellowing.

But we don't smoke the leaves, we smoke the buds and the buds don't yellow they stay healthy alive and green till the end because the plant is pulling the nutes from the leaves, So how does this popular practice remove nutes from the buds that we smoke???

Can anyone please explain how this works???

I disagree with flushing. Backing the dose down some, yes. Cut them out completely, no. I think of it this way. Why would you want to starve your plant during one of the most critical times? When it is producingthe most resin and bud weight. Has never made any sense too me. Grow 2 plants side by side. Everything the same until the final 2 weeks. Flush one and continue to feed the other. After a proper drying and cure. The only way you will be able to tell them apart. The one that continued to get fed, probaly will be a bit stickier. Nitrogen and chlorophyl DO NOT make the smoke harsh. Poor drying and curing habits make smoke harsh.

cowboylogic · Jun 16, 2010

whiteflour said:
No, Chlorohpyll makes the plant smell and taste like Hay. This is completely normal and happens in every medium, chemical or ogranic, whether you flush or not.

Chemical nutes on the other hand taste like Chemicals. They also work differently than organic nutrients which are created by microbes in the soil and released slowley. Fast acting chemical nutrients work different. They are Dissolved Salts and that water with "saturated contaminants" is stored within the pipes of the plant - the stalk and vascular system. When you cut the plant down before flushing unused fertilizers from the soil, you get stuck with whatever is left in the pipes.

By Flushing the fertilizer from the MEDIUM. You're simply giving the plant a chance to use up what last bit of chems stored within the plant. Nutrients which have already been metabolized do not cause this problem.

Don't believe me? Go ask a farmer or read any EDU website with an agricultural department. A good place to start would be UGA or NCSU.

If you followed a good water/feed program during the entire grow. You should not have a ton of unused to salts to flush from your medium. Poor growing habits produce sub-par tasting weed. It starts all the way back to the first feeding.

amquai · Jun 16, 2010

riddleme said:
Thanks, I try to share what I know and what I learn, and back it up with legitimate sources, my thing is put it out there for others to read and decide for themselves, I'm a teacher not a preacher

I am a noob and just finishing up my first grow which has been very successful in my eyes. I have followed you because its obvious by your posts that you know what you are talking about. I thank you for your information I know you don't have to share it.

riddleme · Jun 16, 2010

amquai said:
I am a noob and just finishing up my first grow which has been very successful in my eyes. I have followed you because its obvious by your posts that you know what you are talking about. I thank you for your information I know you don't have to share it.

your very welcome, glad my ranblings helped you

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