Would you support universal basic income if it meant eliminating all other social safety net progs?

[spandy]

So we promote art and education. Granted, there will be a large amount of people living the lazy life, but it will also free up the lives of the future Teslas/Einstins/Beethovens,etc to pursue their dreams and add to our knowledge and culture.

I don't do art, and I already know how to do the things I enjoy, and I can teach myself the rest, so I'll pass on the education.

Guess I'll TP your house while you are at the art gallery then.

 

[WeedFreak78]

Hey, if you don't want to further yourself and be more educated, that's your prerogative, all courts need their jesters, me I'd be taking class after class after class in subjects that are of interest to me if it was free.

 

[Rob Roy]

Hey, if you don't want to further yourself and be more educated, that's your prerogative, all courts need their jesters, me I'd be taking class after class after class in subjects that are of interest to me if it was free.

Free is an interesting word. You seem to have used it in the sense that if you don't pay for something, there is no cost to produce it.

How can something be two opposing things at once? How does that happen?

 

[schuylaar]

What about dem criminals? Do we use the standard "no felons allowed" on this?

Would you ever have to try to get a job? Or is this a no matter what pay check?

Do I get to keep my doctor?

check this:

Denmark follows a societal model in which the state assumes primary responsibility for the welfare of its citizens. This responsibility (in theory) is comprehensive as all aspects of welfare are considered to be universally applied to people living and working in Denmark since receiving the benefits of the welfare state is the citizens' basic right.

In this model, the state implements pension schemes, supports maternity and paternity leave, provides benefits for the unemployed and supports those living with disabilities. Countries with a generous welfare system such as Denmark impose income taxes up to 60% along with other social taxes. The VAT amounts to 25%. These taxes, however, are redistributed by the state to the needy such as the unemployed. This type of welfare system is usually referred to as the Nordic Model.

http://medicolink.dk/welfare-system-in-denmark

 

[Rob Roy]

check this:

Denmark follows a societal model in which the state assumes primary responsibility for the welfare of its citizens. This responsibility (in theory) is comprehensive as all aspects of welfare are considered to be universally applied to people living and working in Denmark since receiving the benefits of the welfare state is the citizens' basic right.

In this model, the state implements pension schemes, supports maternity and paternity leave, provides benefits for the unemployed and supports those living with disabilities. Countries with a generous welfare system such as Denmark impose income taxes up to 60% along with other social taxes. The VAT amounts to 25%. These taxes, however, are redistributed by the state to the needy such as the unemployed. This type of welfare system is usually referred to as the Nordic Model.

http://medicolink.dk/welfare-system-in-denmark

When a person wants to be responsible for their own life and others take away that ability, what would you do then?

 

[schuylaar]

When a person wants to be responsible for their own life and others take away that ability, what would you do then?

i need an example that doesn't include free oranges or folding of laundry..

 

[Rob Roy]

i need an example that doesn't include free oranges or folding of laundry..

Okay.

What if a peaceful person thinks they and they alone should make decisions about their own well being and they don't want to have somebody else do that ? Would you be willing to use force against them to make them do what you want ?

I need a reply that doesn't rely on cognitive dissonance or crayons.

 

[WeedFreak78]

When a person wants to be responsible for their own life and others take away that ability, what would you do then?

I've always held strong self reliance,libertarian esque beliefs, but the reality is without some sort of socialistic system many things we as a society want wouldn't be available. It's impossible for the majority of people in this country to provide for themselves and a family while saving for any sort of retirement and providing complete healthcare, no amount of hard work or ambition is going to overcome that. Roads, water supply, electrical supply, mass transit, education..all things we wouldn't have without some sort of socialized government programs.

 

[WeedFreak78]

Okay.

What if a peaceful person thinks they and they alone should make decisions about their own well being and they don't want to have somebody else do that ? Would you be willing to use force against them to make them do what you want ?

I need a reply that doesn't rely on cognitive dissonance or crayons.

They should have the final say in their own person,but that same person must realize that they will get NO support from the community if they choose that path. Don't want to be part of universal health care..fine..but when their children have a major medical emergency and don't have the $$$ to pay..they're going to get turned away. How many people are going to deal with that? We could do it, we just put too much value on personal wealth and the ability to horde it.

 

[schuylaar]

Okay.

What if a peaceful person thinks they and they alone should make decisions about their own well being and they don't want to have somebody else do that ? Would you be willing to use force against them to make them do what you want ?

I need a reply that doesn't rely on cognitive dissonance or crayons.

then you are free to donate your state money back.

 

[Rob Roy]

I've always held strong self reliance,libertarian esque beliefs, but the reality is without some sort of socialistic system many things we as a society want wouldn't be available. It's impossible for the majority of people in this country to provide for themselves and a family while saving for any sort of retirement and providing complete healthcare, no amount of hard work or ambition is going to overcome that. Roads, water supply, electrical supply, mass transit, education..all things we wouldn't have without some sort of socialized government programs.

Certainly when people work together on a consensual basis many good things are possible, but that's not what occurs in large part today.

Of course when people gloss over or assume that "working together" can also mean denying an individual their autonomy, it becomes a glaring contradiction in terms. Things like slavery, war, prohibition etc. will never really be eradicated if the business model of a "system" or society relies on coercion to function. It would be logically impossible.

The list of things you presented as impossible without a central authority is erroneous, every one of those things can be created without the use of force and would even be more advanced had force not been imposed in the first place.

Also, education derived via force would more properly be termed "indoctrination".

The majority of the people are in for a rude awakening. All empires fail, this one will too. Grow a garden is my advice. Peace.

 

[schuylaar]

They should have the final say in their own person,but that same person must realize that they will get NO support from the community if they choose that path. Don't want to be part of universal health care..fine..but when their children have a major medical emergency and don't have the $$$ to pay..they're going to get turned away. How many people are going to deal with that? We could do it, we just put too much value on personal wealth and the ability to horde it.

unfortunately, we'll never have societal model.

we have too much diversity.

we allow the political system to run it all.

we allow the propaganda machine to run the political system.

 

[Rob Roy]

They should have the final say in their own person,but that same person must realize that they will get NO support from the community if they choose that path. Don't want to be part of universal health care..fine..but when their children have a major medical emergency and don't have the $$$ to pay..they're going to get turned away. How many people are going to deal with that? We could do it, we just put too much value on personal wealth and the ability to horde it.

Thank you for understanding that forcing people to belong to something they prefer not to is wrong.

Also, who is this "we" you are referring to? Aren't you an individual with individual likes and dislikes?

 

[ginwilly]

Cheaper to provide?

You're gonna have to cite quantative data for that.

We have over 100 different federal welfare departments since our war on poverty started. There are studies that show we could give everyone living under poverty here 40K a year a piece for what it costs to do it the way we do it now. So it's believable it could be cheaper.

It's still first level thinking. We all know there are broken people out there, people willing to pee in the punch or shit in the floor for laughs. If everyone is getting a UBI, who will clean it up? How much will we have to pay someone to clean it up? I sure as hell won't clean up someone's shit for less that what I make doing nothing so good luck with menial jobs.

So wages will go up which will also make the 1st level thinkers happy. A UBI, nobody working for less than 20 bucks an hour, sound lovely.

What level will poverty be now that your big mac costs 14 dollars?

 

[Rob Roy]

then you are free to donate your state money back.

You are using the wrong term. A "donation" implies a voluntary act. State money is not gotten thru voluntary acts, it is taken under threat of force.

A state as an institution doesn't want competition, and will kill you if advocate it, it's existence is threatened by people making free choices and ultimately by peaceful and voluntary human interactions.

Also you didn't really answer my question.

 

[Rob Roy]

unfortunately, we'll never have societal model.

we have too much diversity.

we allow the political system to run it all.

we allow the propaganda machine to run the political system.

At the base of politics is a gun....always. Don't forget that part.

 

[god1]

I've always held strong self reliance,libertarian esque beliefs, but the reality is without some sort of socialistic system many things we as a society want wouldn't be available. It's impossible for the majority of people in this country to provide for themselves and a family while saving for any sort of retirement and providing complete healthcare, no amount of hard work or ambition is going to overcome that. Roads, water supply, electrical supply, mass transit, education..all things we wouldn't have without some sort of socialized government programs.

You're correct to a point. But when does gov. "enabling" become enough?

The fact is, most of those people you speak of, were pre-occupied with other things when they were young and didn't consider their future when they would be older.

Pumpin out "rug rats" when you can't afford them isn't smart. Buying useless shit that you can't afford isn't smart. Not investing in you're own education when you're young isn't smart.

Break the problems up into smaller solvable pieces. Mushing it all together and saying we need more money from the thoughtful, that planned and saved isn't smart.

The fact is, that some people just believe that "free stuff" from the government really is free.

 

[ginwilly]

You're correct to a point. But when does gov. "enabling" become enough?

The fact is, most of those people you speak of, were pre-occupied with other things when they were young and didn't consider their future when they would be older.

Pumpin out "rug rats" when you can't afford them isn't smart. Buying useless shit that you can't afford isn't smart. Not investing in you're own education when you're young isn't smart.

Break the problems up into smaller solvable pieces. Mushing it all together and saying we need more money from the thoughtful, that planned and saved isn't smart.

The fact is, that some people just believe that "free stuff" from the government really is free.

But if the UBI is for everyone, wouldn't pumping out rugrats increase household income? There's some nice incentive for ya.

On the surface it most definitely has feel good, it's not well thought out.

 

[schuylaar]

But if the UBI is for everyone, wouldn't pumping out rugrats increase household income? There's some nice incentive for ya.

On the surface it most definitely has feel good, it's not well thought out.

societal model does work and has been proven.

why do people comment without reading the thread?

 

[Rob Roy]

societal model does work and has been proven.

why do people comment without reading the thread?

Define "works" .

Do you want a forcefully ordered society or a spontaneous and free society where people are free to own themselves is the question you might ask.