For Medicinaluseonly ...

ViRedd

New Member
What the Anti-Bushites would have us believe is that coalition forces have killed 650,000 Iraqi civilians during the war in Iraq. The actual figure isn't even anywhere close to that number. If you would believe the more moderate figures presented by the links I've provided below, and then also believe that 650,000 Iraqis have been killed, then you would have to admit that the majority of that 650,000 have been killed by someone else. In that case, there MUST be a whole bunch of Iraqis who would like us to stay ... because we are killing those who would kill the innocent Iraqi citizens. If we cut & run like the Democrats would have us do ... all hell will break out in Iraq.

I don't expect you to agree with this, by the way.

"I have no need of your drivel!"

^^^^^^^^^^^^

More of your kindness ... thank you very much.

Vi

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22441.pdf#search='iraqi civiliahttp://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22441.pdf#search='iraqi civilian deaths due to coalition forces'n deaths due to coalition forces'

The Austin Chronicle News: The Iraqi Toll: Truth Is the First Casualty
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
It was quoted widely in the media over here that 680,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS have been killed since the war began, war, how can we call that a war. In a war the other side stands a chance.
 

ViRedd

New Member
It was quoted widely in the media over here that 680,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS have been killed since the war began, war, how can we call that a war. In a war the other side stands a chance.
Even though I do not know if the numbers are true or not, I'm not refuting the numbers. All I am saying is ... that number of Iraqis were not killed by coalition forces. The Democrats however, are using the 650,000 number as a political ploy by intimating that the 650,000 killed was at the hands of Americans.

Personally, I think we can count on even more of an escalation of civilian murders in Iraq right up to our elections in November. In hopes of the U.S. cutting and running, there is nothing the terrorists would wish for more than a change in who controls the Senate & Congress after November. That's not exactly a bright, positive endorsment of the Democrats, is it?

Vi
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
Most of them were killed in the air raids, remember those. The news only reported the night time excursions, a few flashing lights in the sky. Sort of looked quite pretty, harmless even. The iraqi army was hiding within the cities, defending them if you will. We decided that rather than use our superior tactical training we'd just carpet bomb the lot and to hell with civilian casualties, hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children wiped out for nothing. Can you even imagine, or feel compassion for what some of those people went through.

We don't even need oil any more. The future is nuclear power, or at least a derivative of. There's only one man that can pull Iraq back together, and that is Saddam Hussein.
 

ViRedd

New Member
"Most of them were killed in the air raids"

This is the part that I don't think is accurate at all ... and its the part that I'm refuting. The estimates of the numbers killed by coalitioin forces, air raids or not, is far, far less. Now, remember, I'm not questioning the numbers at all. I'm only questioning who did the killings and pointing out the political advantage trying to be had by the Democrats.

Vi
 

medicinaluseonly

Well-Known Member
So your not refuting the 650,000 dead. Well halleauh! My post never said by coalition hands, and even some probably died of natural causes but do you think the number would be the same if we had never invaded. We have created the mailestorm, so basically we are responsible for all deaths that weren't accidental or natural, and I don't mean accidentally walking out your front door during a fire fight. How would you like enemy troops storming your neighborhood, looking for Insurgents which is what you'd be unless you were a coward, blowing up shit everywhere, and taking in to custody anyone they wanted, humiliating, and maybe even torturing your neighbors, and hiding so they didn,t get you. Put your self in the average Iraqis shoes, a shitstorm everywhere, friends and neighbors dying and killing each other with an enemy military force controlling everything including the puppet govt. supposidly in power. Wouldn't you want the foriegn military to leave.. The idea you have that we are actually helping the Iraqi people, is definently upside down. The best thing for everyone, except the Bush regime, is to cut and run. There is no Victory in Iraq period. call me a cut and run liberal, I'm proud to advocate this in this un-holy war. in fact most of the wars fought in the last 50 years by the U.S. govt, have been un-holy, the 2nd world war is the last noble war the US has participated in, to rid the world of hitler and Jappanese imperialism, Now the US has an Imperialism plan of it's own (natural resources, why bother with the land when you can just steal the natural resourses), pay off a dictatorship and reap the harvest. "I'm proud to be an American"! I'm not sure on that one, there are countries you better not go if they know you're an American, because they know it was American foriegn policy that made their country a dictatorial shitbox! I grew up being proud to be an American, it took the antics of the US Govt. to sway me. anyone that has been awake for the last 50 years would have to have witnessed the outright Piracy of Corporate America thrust on the third world, cheap labor (slave wages) and the aforementioned puppet govt.s propped up by US taxpayers while the Corporations make off with the loot The American people have been placated with the highest standard of living, (well it used to be) and fed bullshit by the govt. and the corporate controlled Press. Now that there seems to be a lowering of our standard of living, maybe the moronic American voters will see the facts. They've (govt. and press) hidden the truth so well that most people believe the bullshit. example: "the Viet Nam war: an unpopular war fought in southeast Asia that claimed 56,000 American lives" The one paragraph in my sons history book about Viet Nam. What other bullshit are they teaching our Kids. Once you've got control of the next generations minds, you've got free reign to proclaim all the Govt. and press tells you is gospel, thank God for higher Education, they encourage you to think, the only reason this country is not a total dictatorship, or maybe I should say corporationship. Opinions accepted, bullshit facts not!
 

ViRedd

New Member
"So your not refuting the 650,000 dead. Well halleauh!"

Nope, I'm not refuting the number ... nor am I agreeing with it. I don't have enough information to form an opinion on the subject.

Vi
 

medicinaluseonly

Well-Known Member
wow, I stumped Vred, not enough information, go figure. Usually you have more than enough "info" to foist your beliefs on these threads. I myself was amazed by that figure, but we must realize that this govt. treats us like mushrooms, "kept in the dark and fed tons of shit" so I'm sure it is possible!. By the way, did you see "The lost year in Iraq" on Frontline, very eye opening!
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
the figure of 680,000, in my opinion, is an underestimation. Obviously, even were it to be accurate you could never determine the exact figure. I'd say it was a lot more. I think Basra is Iraq's 2nd biggest City (if it's called something else please don't deride me too much as I'm going by memory), and Iraq's 2nd biggest City holds a million people. So throughout the whole country, only half the population of Basra has been wiped out since the start of the war. Yeah, right. Whether our forces are responsible for actually pulling the trigger is neither here nor there, the fact is it is still our fault.

Iraq was a beautiful country, it was prospering under Saddam's regime, we went to war against him because we believed he had weapons of mass destruction. Saddam didn't care about the West, he wanted us as allies in his quest to conquer the East. Our Governments lie to us. If this was the real reason then we'd have no hesitation in declaring war on Iran and N. Korea.

I remember the air raids on the Cities, not just the air force but guided missiles too. Imagine the damage one missile would cause landing in a residential area of a City with a population of 1 million. I believe that the 680,000 figure is wrong too. I believe it is grossly underestimated.

I really believe Vi', please don't take offence, that you read too much of the propaganda they try and force us to believe. It is so easy for them to declare what they like, also too so easy for us to believe it. What a joke that Osamah Bin-Laden video-tape was that won Bush the last election, remember that? Obviously constructed to help Bush win the election. I actually laughed when they played that tape on the news over here, and I knew that that tape would turn the tide and guarantee Bush the election. Do not forget how they try to control you, confuse you with statistics and the make-believe that there really is such a thing as Good and Evil and that it is we that represent Good.
 

medicinaluseonly

Well-Known Member
I hope that view is in the majority in Briton, as the big players on the planet need a change of direction. Maybe if the Brits. have those Ideas, they will vote to change leadership. We liberals see Tony Blair as a puppet of the Bush Regime and can't figure out why, as he seems Intelligent. I've watched the Prime ministers questions in Parliment and he is sharp, always fast with a reply. I wish we had something like that here where they could question the Devil Bush that way. He would certainly fall by the wayside compared to Blair. The only thing I can figure for Blair sticking with Bush is some under the table money deal. I think the Brits as a whole are dead against the war! I don't know if you get the American PBS channel on TV over there, If you do, look for a program called "the lost year in Iraq", it pretty much explains how we (US) lost the iraqi allegence and created the insurgency through faulty policy. I'm sure V is going to argue this, but it looked pretty factual to me with interviews with all the major players and excerpts from rhetorical speeches of the Bush regime. A good read on why the insurgency was created!
 

ViRedd

New Member
'We liberals see Tony Blair as a puppet of the Bush Regime and can't figure out why, as he seems Intelligent."

^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^

And here, ladies and gentelmen, we have the arrogance of the Left laid out for all to see.

Vi
 

medicinaluseonly

Well-Known Member
Nitpick, Nitpick, Nitpick, you are something else, I hope the tax cuts you got under Bush make you happy as the majority of the populace got royally fucked by them, I mean Double fucked!
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
Yes, we are just as much to blame as you, so to speak. Of course we gained financially from going into Iraq. We're still getting paid for protecting the oil pipelines that the 'terrorists' keep trying to blow up.

Iraq was a stable country, why did we do it? To think that we did it for money makes me feel sick. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people murdered... for money. We are the true terrorists of the world... when we want something we take it.
 

medicinaluseonly

Well-Known Member
Yup, and there you have it, said by someone other than I. "we are the real terrorists of the world" You bet your sweet arse we are, Bullys of the world, look at us, don't you wish you had what we have, let us have your resources and maybe we won't "bomb you back to the stone age", other wise your fucked!
 

skunkushybrid

New Member
We've been doing it for thousands of years... under one pretext or another. the gold out of Africa, India...

however much this was worth it's got to cover the (b)millions spent during the war and protecting our interests afterwards.
 

medicinaluseonly

Well-Known Member
We in America have been paying for it with our international credit card. 9 trillion dollar National debt, Thats trillion with a T. In other words China owns a few trillion dollars worth of of US real estate as that is what is the collateral! Our kids grandkids will be paying for this for years or we will become a failed state, bankrupted by Corporate America and their for profit Wars. This is the insanity of the situation, and the answer from Bush, "Stay the course"
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Lets look at it this way, we should always have a military, and be ready to fight. But with that readiness, we should use wisdom. We should choose our fights carefully.
It would have been a matter of time before Saddam’s regime would have suffered the same fate as Anwar Sadat did in 1981.
Iraq was on the verge of bankruptcy, that being said, Saddam's troops would have been going hungry in a short time. Once your Army starts to suffer, your fate is sealed.
If we wanted to fight them over there instead of the United States, fine we could have done it in Afghanistan.
But we didn't finish the job there before we went to Iraq, besides between the countries Iran was the real threat, Saddam was a minor irritation, like a fly that keeps buzzing around a horses ass. It irritates the horse, the horse keeps swishing it's tail at it and the fly never does any real harm.

I will agree with med here, The Government is bought and paid for by Corporate America. I will remind Vi that Corporations only provide 20% of the jobs in the US, the rest is provided by small business. And yet this administration has made it unfavorable to small business and favorable to Corporate America.

That tells you that those in office have their hands deep in the pockets of Corporate America. One has to ask, "why does a multi-millionaire take a job that pays $400,000 per year with a $50,000 expense allowance?"

Answer: Foreign policy, if a president creates a foreign policy that is favorable to his business friends, they will give kickbacks once the setting president is out of office.

At least previous presidents tried to hide that fact, this idiot hasn't even tried to hide it.

Just a few things to chew on, as neither party is immune to corruption.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Nitpick, Nitpick, Nitpick, you are something else, I hope the tax cuts you got under Bush make you happy as the majority of the populace got royally fucked by them, I mean Double fucked!
Have you ever considered how your union can afford to continue to pay you your retirement benefits? Do you suppose they just collect the monthly dues from the workers of today, then transfer the funds to the retirees? Those funds are deposited into investment accounts, like mutual funds. Bush's tax cuts have allowed the DOW to soar to an all time record of 12,000. Have you ever considered just how wonderful that is for retirees such as yourself? Do you really think that the millions upon millions of people who benefit from stock investments are just "greedy little bastards?" If so pal, you are putting yourself into that catagory.

Damn, you have a lot to learn about what causes the economic engine of this country to work.

Vi
 
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