Islam: Evil or misunderstood

[Johnnyorganic]

Even the Grand Ayatollahs of Iran terrorism.

What the heck are you trying to say?

You are so blinded my American media it is out of control.

I see pretty damn good for a blind man.

Do a little research please.

I research plenty. You just don't like the results.

 

[OGkushOG]

What the heck are you trying to say?

I see pretty damn good for a blind man.

I research plenty. You just don't like the results.

Statements Against Terror

Statements from the Muslim worlds top leaders about 9/11

Bin Laden Stirs Struggle on Meaning of Jihad

Ayatollah Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah condemning Osama Bin Laden

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Grand Sheikh condemns suicide bombings

Grand Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi (highest spiritual leader and skeikh to over 1 billion Sunni Muslims) condemning terrorism in ALL forms.

I could keep giving you more and more but to be honest there is WAAYYY to much. Your claim that there is no backlash from top Muslim leaders was absolutely 100% false. In fact, almost all of the leaders denounce it, but you are obviously to ignorant to actually do any form of real research

 

[OGkushOG]

The fact remains: The book was pulled for fear of a Muslim backlash. America, home of the First Amendment. One 'isolated incident' is one too many.
Publishers Accused of Self-censoring Islamic Novel [incl. Denise Spellberg] - Campus Watch

I love how you didn't bold "by a small, radical segment." lol

You're statements say that Islam promotes terrorism.

Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things. [Surah al-Baqarah: 256]

If it had been your Lord's will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe? [Surah Yunus: 99]

So if they dispute with you, say I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me. And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: Do you also submit yourselves? If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah's sight are all of His servants. [Surah Al `Imran: 20]

The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim the Message. [Surah Al-Maidah: 99]

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged and verily Allah is Most Powerful for their aid (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say, Our Lord is Allah. Did Allah not check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his cause, for truly Allah is full of strength and might. [Surah al-Hajj: 39-40]

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them and drive them out from whence they drove you out, for oppression is worse than killing. But fight them not at the sacred mosque unless they fight you there. But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
[Surah al-Baqarah: 190-193]

Yes this Surah tells people to fight, but read more closely. Fight who fights you, but do not transgress limits. If they stop fighting you, stop fighting them. Stop fighting them until there is no more tumult or oppression. If they stop fighting, let there be NO HOSTILITY except to those who keep on oppressing you.

That seems like pretty logical stuff to me huh? If you are getting fought, defend yourself. If you are getting oppressed, stand up for yourself. I don't see how these teachings aren't the same with the morals and values we all have here in America? Didn't the first settlers stand up and battle the British who were oppressing them? Didn't they stop when the British retreated? These teachings are not as distant to yourself as you seem to believe they are.

 

[OGkushOG]

Some more just for good measure.

Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just. [Surah al-Mumtahanah: 9-10]

"Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind."

(Qur’an, 5:32)

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"


"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:"



​

 

[medicineman]

I am not at all learned in Islam. If the above is true then it sounds like a just and true religion. I guess it is the fringe radicals that give it a bad name, just as our corporate warriors give our christianity a bad name. Suffice it to say, ignorance is in controll of the world at present, call it the devil, or any name you want, but it is pure ignorance. Money has become "God". I must say that the muslims of the middle east are not in love with money like the west. If they were, Osama bin Laden would have been toast long ago. 25 (edit: 50 million) reward and no-one will come forward. almost leads one to believe he died in Tora-Bora.

 

[bobharvey]

I agree. I think Osama bin Laden is dead.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I could keep giving you more and more but to be honest there is WAAYYY to much. Your claim that there is no backlash from top Muslim leaders was absolutely 100% false. In fact, almost all of the leaders denounce it, but you are obviously to ignorant to actually do any form of real research

What do they have to say about Darfur?

The assault comes as Sudan's president faces genocide charges for alleged government-backed attacks on ethnic Africans in the country's troubled western region. Up to 300,000 people have died and more than 2.5 million have been displaced since a rebellion began in Darfur in 2003.

Darfur Refugee Camp Attacked - TIME

What do they have to say about this?

Cotabato City (AsiaNews) – Armed men stopped a mini-bus and murdered four Christian male passengers execution-style in Mindanao yesterday, while a fifth passenger is still missing. According to police, the murder took place in an area considered a bastion of rebels from the Moro Islamic Front, where criminal episodes of this nature have occurred in the past. Security officials failed to confirm is if the assassination was of a confessional nature or whether the Muslim militants were responsible. The bus was carrying about 15 people when it was stopped near Malabang, Lanao del Sur, an area under MILF control. The passengers were robbed but the women were allowed to leave unharmed; then four of the five men were dragged into a forest and shot in the head at close range, the fifth abducted.

PHILIPPINES Mindanao: four Christians killed, a fifth missing - Asia News

What do they think of this?

"We are coming, Jews," read graffiti daubed on a wall inside its private training base in the Gaza Strip, where Reuters journalists were allowed rare access.

Reuters AlertNet - Pro-al Qaeda fighters train in Gaza Strip

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I love how you didn't bold "by a small, radical segment." lol

What difference does it make what I highlight as long as it is there? Does it make it less so? Was I being dishonest? Does this means attacks by small, radical segments are acceptable to you? It is the threat of those small, radical segments which prompted the cancellation of publication. LOL!

You're statements say that Islam promotes terrorism.

What I said was:

My fear stems from the absence of outrage from the Islamic world when the jihadists misbehave.

Now I will adjust that statement to say that Islam is largely silent when it comes to the Jihadists. I stand by that.

Islam promotes a worldwide caliphate and jihad is a righteous and just method to achieve this.

 

[Prophecy]

With all the post 9/11 discussion b/s on here, thought this might be another interesting discussion

***********************************************************

This is an essay I was inspired to wrie; I posted it on the spiritual, philosiphy, forum, I don't know if you or your viewers had the chance to check it out.

I completely believe that the Spirit of the primary three religions or faiths have the same God just different names and customs. I believe also that the revelation of God/Spirit has evolved since the fal of man and with that greater revelation so too has his name changed accordingly.

Non-the-less, in all of His names what matters more is His Virtueous manifestation of that name; withthis being said, I believe all who are seeking God and are guided more by His Spirit (of Truth) and not as much by laws and religons written on stone tablets and the likes (though I believe that the Ten Commandments are very applicable and valid today, though Jesus sums them up by telling us that the greatest commandments is to Love thy Lord thy God with al our hearts, mind, strength, and soul) are more faithful then those who pray ervery day as healthy and edifying as prayer can be.

Islamic Christians​

Do you understand the idea of an Islamic Christian?

Ought you thinking/being lead to become an Islamic Christian?

Are you an Islamic Christian?

Just as many Jews were/are lead to believe in the reality of God by receiving the testimony of Jesus Christ and so became Judeo Christian; I believe many Muslims within the Islamic world are being driven by the power of the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit in their conscience/mind to advance beyond the religious shortcomings of the religion of Islam and mature into the spiritual relationship with God that comes by faith moreso than religion.

Thus, in short, Islamic Christians are exactly what the term hints at, Muslims who have found the state of the Word of Truth that begins and ultimately ends with the testimony of Jesus Christ, as convicted by the faith of their hearts and the Word and Deed that comes through the reality of Christ Jesus.

Furthermore, Islamic Christian does not necessarily completely debunk their Islamic upbringings and/or culture but blend it in to their ever evolving Christian understanding as lead by the Holy Spirit / Word of Truth.


Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

(Being Born Again)​

John 3:1-21 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs, you are doing if God were not with him.

v.3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked, “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

v.5 Jesus answered, I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he be born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit.

v.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

v.9 How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
You are Israel’s teacher, said Jesus, and do you not understand these things?

v.11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

v.13 No one has ever gone to heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man must be lifted up,

v.15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
“For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

v.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s [firstborn] one and only Son.

v.19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

v.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

The Firstborn Son of God Promises the Holy Spirit​

John 14:15-31 If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the [Heavenly] Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-

v.17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

v.19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

v.21 Whoever has my commands and obey them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

v.23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will make our home with Him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

v.25 All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

v.27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
You heard me say, “I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

v.29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,

v.31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now let us leave.


Love God;
Homage your love ones to God;
Worship God thru your loved ones,
Mark Daniels
Mark9v40_41@hotmail.com
http://virtuousintelligence.spaces.live.com
http://www.eternityinvestments.zoomshare.com/0.html
Detroit,Mi

 

[Prophecy]

Some more just for good measure.

Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just. [Surah al-Mumtahanah: 9-10]

"Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind."

(Qur’an, 5:32)

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"​

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:"​

*****************************************************************

I think that some religous people put the religion before God. God does not encourage us to do wrong/sin; thus, to consciusly murder innocent people is not God's original will, as far s I know. I disagree with the people who do so in the marketplace of Iraq in the name of Allah. I believe some people get so caught up in following Mohammad that they forget his mst fundamental revelation from God that he commanded oonto his followers and that is "Worship God". The Christian Bible will tell us that we cannot worship God except by the Spirit of Truth that is the Holy Spirit; religons have been subjective and even erroneous over time and has and can misguide and/or cause individual/faithfuls to fall short of thier subjective calling by the Objective God.

My quuestion is what do you do when the Spirit of Truth is calling your conscience/mind to evolve beyond the traditions and or limitations of your religion and into a higher and/or closer (onesness) personal relationship with the Almighty God?

 

[medicineman]

My quuestion is what do you do when the Spirit of Truth is calling your conscience/mind to evolve beyond the traditions and or limitations of your religion and into a higher and/or closer (onesness) personal relationship with the Almighty God?


That's when you die!!!

 

[mockingbird131313]

I am not at all learned in Islam. If the above is true then it sounds like a just and true religion. I guess it is the fringe radicals that give it a bad name, just as our corporate warriors give our christianity a bad name. Suffice it to say, ignorance is in controll of the world at present, call it the devil, or any name you want, but it is pure ignorance. Money has become "God". I must say that the muslims of the middle east are not in love with money like the west. If they were, Osama bin Laden would have been toast long ago. 25 (edit: 50 million) reward and no-one will come forward. almost leads one to believe he died in Tora-Bora.

medicineman, thank you for being honest here. Many of the people in this thread have been dishonest and delusional.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

i keep close company with islamic palastinians....and they have taught me alot about the islamic religion and arabic culture over the years and i do follow some islamic beliefs...but just like any other religion or belief system you have the nut jobs....but because of americas campaign against anything other than christianity we only see the evil of islam over here and not the good...what isnt talked about are the terror and attrocities carried out in the name of cristianity and catholocism.....9/11 has nothing on the crusades...

Cough, nevermind the fact that the Crusades started because Islam was trying to conquer the world. Never mind that they attacked Constantinople (Byzantine Empire) with out reason. Oh yeah, no, 9-11 can be said to be just a continuation of the Crusades. Crazy Islamic Fundamentalists attacking the West for no reason other than an attempt to create a Global Islamic Empire.

 

[mjetta]

Prophecy,

The holy spirit, Jesus christ as the savior of the world, and the virgin birth from mary are all integral parts of Islam already

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

Mjetta, I really doubt they maintain that Jesus Christ is the son of a virgin Mary, and the Son of God. They do maintain that he is a prophet, (like Moses and Mohammed). There is no Holy Spirit in Islam (That's part of the Catholic Trinity)

 

[mjetta]

There is a whole chapter in the quran devoted to mary. In fact its titled "Mary"

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]"And mention in the Book, Maryam [i.e. mention, O Mohammed, in the Quran the story of Mary], when she withdrew from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen from them; then We sent to her our angel (Jibrael, or Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in full human form. She said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'I seek refuge with The Most Beneficent [God] from you, if you do fear Him.' (The angel) said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.' She said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?' He (the angel) said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me: And to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (from God)', and it is a matter (already) decreed (by God).' " (Quran 19:16-21)[/SIZE][/FONT]



[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]"So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place . And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!' Then a call unto her from bellow, said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you; And shake the trunk of the date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon you. So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent so I shall not speak to any human being this day.' " (Quran 19:22-26)[/SIZE][/FONT]




[16:102] Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."


Both the Holy Spirit and Mary giving virgin birth to Jesus who will be a savior to humanity are central ideas in ALL schools of thought in Islam. Its in the quran, which all sects report to as the final word.

And yes, its the same mary and jesus, and the same holy spirit. The thing that differentiates it from the trinity of catholisism is that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit have any physical or spiritual connection with God. They are very holy, but God is completely independent in Islamic idealogy
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

There is a whole chapter in the quran devoted to mary. In fact its titled "Mary"

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]"And mention in the Book, Maryam [i.e. mention, O Mohammed, in the Quran the story of Mary], when she withdrew from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen from them; then We sent to her our angel (Jibrael, or Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in full human form. She said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'I seek refuge with The Most Beneficent [God] from you, if you do fear Him.' (The angel) said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.' She said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?' He (the angel) said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me: And to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (from God)', and it is a matter (already) decreed (by God).' " (Quran 19:16-21)[/SIZE][/FONT]



[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]"So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place . And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!' Then a call unto her from bellow, said:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you; And shake the trunk of the date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon you. So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent so I shall not speak to any human being this day.' " (Quran 19:22-26)[/SIZE][/FONT]




[16:102] Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."


Both the Holy Spirit and Mary giving virgin birth to Jesus who will be a savior to humanity are central ideas in ALL schools of thought in Islam. Its in the quran, which all sects report to as the final word.

And yes, its the same mary and jesus, and the same holy spirit. The thing that differentiates it from the trinity of catholisism is that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit have any physical or spiritual connection with God. They are very holy, but God is completely independent in Islamic idealogy
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Well it appears I was wrong :: shrugs :: not much I can do about it, (I don't have a copy of the Koran, so I can't double check for myself, so I'll take your word on it.)

 

[mjetta]

Crazy stuff

Peace

 

[Prophecy]

My quuestion is what do you do when the Spirit of Truth is calling your conscience/mind to evolve beyond the traditions and or limitations of your religion and into a higher and/or closer (onesness) personal relationship with the Almighty God?


That's when you die!!!

********************************************************

I thought two things: How do you define "die"; And, I would say that's when you are "Born Again", although die whichever the definition is also an option.

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

(Being Born Again)​

John 3:1-21 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs, you are doing if God were not with him.

v.3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked, “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

v.5 Jesus answered, I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he be born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit.

v.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

v.9 How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
You are Israel’s teacher, said Jesus, and do you not understand these things?

v.11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

v.13 No one has ever gone to heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man must be lifted up,

v.15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
“For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

v.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s [firstborn] one and only Son.

v.19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

v.21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

 

[Prophecy]

Prophecy,

The holy spirit, Jesus christ as the savior of the world, and the virgin birth from mary are all integral parts of Islam already

**********************************************************

I must admit my studies of the Holy Koran are ahead of me, God willing, but what I've read thus far, I clearly recognize the Spirit of Holy. My question is repentance; how do you clear your conscience of sin based on religion and/or laws.