Classic case of calmag deficiency? (Pics)

[hot cheetos]

The way they are getting lighter looks more like overly saturated root zone thing, like almost overwatering symptom. hmmmm because if it was just the nutrients are getting low, those big fans would not still be really dark like that. Or they need more light or heat or something along those lines.. hmmmmm

yea, running too much water through each time is just a waste, yeah, 10-15 sounds better. 25%... a quarter of nutrient solution each time to waste sounds like a lot, a waste. agreed.

I used to run cubes at around 1.2 EC not much higher than that if ever, bigger more mature plants needed less believe it or not, and running to waste, GH 3part sm90 pH 5.6-5.7 with a 1/4" 4x4 coco mat underneath sitting on the table under 1K hortilux, with 2x2 wood in each corner as posts with trellis across table. ran like a machine.

-with drippers.

I've caught them more often dry and limp and the cubes light rather than over saturated or over-watered and heavy. They were actually the nice and dark green you see in the first pic when I fed them less often but more saturated where they stayed heavy for a week. And I only recently got a chiller so my water was actually too warm around 75-80*. I keep the water at 65-68* now.

At this point I'm leaning toward the lack of consistent waterings and letting them dry out too much. Not much else i can do except wait and see if the new schedule i put them for 4 light waterings per 24 hours does the trick. Should keep the nice and saturated and not allow drying out. And i think im definitely going to throw in a cocomat in there and cover the trays with panda film as you mentioned. Check out this vid i found researching what you said:

youtube.com/watch?v=wY-ZEs8dFyQ

 

[Johnei]

lol



Good Growing brother.

 

[Dr. Who]

pH in the tank after watering with pH5.6 solution should not be dropping lower than 5.6, if it is, then the nutrient solution is too strong and lower it until the pH after watering stays stable, or is ever so slightly rising as the water level is dropping. this is the sweet spot. the plants will tell you how much nutrients they want at any given stage. You plants are very dark green big fan leaves, be careful this next little while that you don't overfeed, I believe you're on the verge.

His single leaf pic shows verge N.
No claw
Also no tip burn. Indicates the N maybe a tic elevated but everything else is there.
Look at what he's running - Foliage Pro. Greater N to P ratio. That gives the N elevated look, without the "pushing" look of tip burn.

Its actually only my second grow so I'm fairly new at this, though I've done a lot of theory and research. The water is RO and the temps were too high at around 78 degrees up until yesterday I picked up a chiller. I feed dyna gro protekt, foliage pro, and some botanicare calmag: 3ml, 6ml, 1ml per gallon at around 650ppm, 5.8-6.0ph.

My bottled nutes had been sitting for about 8 months and I wasn't sure if they had gone bad because I had a batch made for a week that had orange/brown earth/ocean-smelling stuff growing inside. Since calmag was orange I thought it was the culprit and I tried not to feed as much of the stuff until I picked up a new bottle. But now I'm pretty certain it was due to the water not being chilled.

The spotting has increased from last night when I posted the pics. I just fed them and bumped up the calmag to 3ml to see if it will help.



All my roots on the bottom of the RW are also dead but isn't that normal? Don't they just die due to trying out/air prune? I haven't checked the PH runoff yet, I'll do that now and report back.

It's not bugs.

RO you say...eh?
5ml of Ca/Mg to every gallon of RO used.

RO has no buffers in it. You must add a Ca/Mg to it at that rate. The other thing with non-buffered RO. It's not pH stable for shit!

The other thing is either add the Silica first or last and the Ca/mg the opposite......BE SURE to mix well (stir) between every part added - especially the Si and the Ca.

Ca and Si can form a precipitate, and cancel each other out - very easy!

If you've ever seen a "cloudy" condition happen in the water/formula as you pour the Si or Ca in....You had that happen. That really screws with shit..... Never mix for a res in a gallon of water and add that to the res. Mix in the res. with all the water present.

 

[Dr. Who]

Fine hairs should technically be fine within the rockwool cube. Only roots that poke out end up dying which from what i understand is exactly what is supposed to happen. They get airpruned and in turn the rootball within the cube gets more dense and grows laterally.

Not all the time.

I ran 5 cycles a day-15 min a cycle.

Some strains would have viable roots outside the cube at times.....

 

[Dr. Who]

Seriously, your easiest best solution, is grab some non see through thick plastic sheet and cut slits in it where the plants go and seal up the whole lower table and rockwool inside. Will create a humid layer down there, roots wont dry out because some water stays on the table, roots will expand, and so will your plants. trust me.

--check your roots for any rot/insects etc. if so, SM90 or Hydroguard or H2O2 added will knock that shit out, then seal up make humid layer for the roots down there with plastic sheet, and you're golden.

Not the best idea.... if he has drying out of the cubes = increase the cycles. By doing your trick - you need that SM or hydroguard....
Res is below 70? No need for that shit, and no need to cover the tray.....which would promote higher heat levels in the cube - thus increasing the chance of root rot's....and the need for those, "un-needed" extra's.
Average amount used on flood and drain = 5 a day... First at lights on and spread evenly till the last is right at lights out....

 

[hot cheetos]

His single leaf pic shows verge N.
No claw
Also no tip burn. Indicates the N maybe a tic elevated but everything else is there.
Look at what he's running - Foliage Pro. Greater N to P ratio. That gives the N elevated look, without the "pushing" look of tip burn.



It's not bugs.

RO you say...eh?
5ml of Ca/Mg to every gallon of RO used.

RO has no buffers in it. You must add a Ca/Mg to it at that rate. The other thing with non-buffered RO. It's not pH stable for shit!

The other thing is either add the Silica first or last and the Ca/mg the opposite......BE SURE to mix well (stir) between every part added - especially the Si and the Ca.

Ca and Si can form a precipitate, and cancel each other out - very easy!

If you've ever seen a "cloudy" condition happen in the water/formula as you pour the Si or Ca in....You had that happen. That really screws with shit..... Never mix for a res in a gallon of water and add that to the res. Mix in the res. with all the water present.

I actually do have clawing, just didnt include it in the pics. Thats what lead me to think i had some nitrogen toxicity and to counter it I used dynagro "grow" for a couple feedings since it has lower N than the foliage pro.

Yeah i think you're right I think its the calmag. The spots have rusted now looks like calcium deficiency. And I'm pretty sure now that I wasnt watering frequent enough because my plants were a little droopy and thats probably why i have the leaves turning a lighter shade, they were hungry lol. I did this my last run too. I'm that odd ball new grower who underfeeds rather than overfeeds like the rest lol.

I always add Si first, then foliage pro, then Ca/mg last. I usually mix nutrients in 30 gallons of RO then top off 10 gallons to reach the max res capacity. Hard to stir if i reach max initially but I assume 30 gal is plenty. Yes, i always mix and record PPM's and PH after each addition of nutrient.

 

[hot cheetos]

Not all the time.

I ran 5 cycles a day-15 min a cycle.

Some strains would have viable roots outside the cube at times.....

By cycles you mean feedings right? You fed 5 times during lights on for 15 minutes at a time? How slow does the dripper drip? I have some pictures stored in my memory of people who have thick roots coming out the bottom of their cubes. I cant remember what their application was. I think they had standing water at the bottom of the tray or something. Some of my plants here have some viable roots at the bottoms but i figure its only a matter of time for them to shrivel up and turn brown and die..

Not the best idea.... if he has drying out of the cubes = increase the cycles. By doing your trick - you need that SM or hydroguard....
Res is below 70? No need for that shit, and no need to cover the tray.....which would promote higher heat levels in the cube - thus increasing the chance of root rot's....and the need for those, "un-needed" extra's.
Average amount used on flood and drain = 5 a day... First at lights on and spread evenly till the last is right at lights out....

"Res is below 70? No need for that shit.." You don't mean no need for the res to be below 70, right?

 

[Dr. Who]

The way they are getting lighter looks more like overly saturated root zone thing, like almost overwatering symptom. hmmmm because if it was just the nutrients are getting low, those big fans would not still be really dark like that. Or they need more light or heat or something along those lines.. hmmm

Um,,,say what?

How do you over-water hydro?

I suspect some root damage from the high res. temps......

If I were you here. It would be time to go to Hydrogen Peroxide use. The "over-watered" look is from not enough O2 to the roots right now.

I prefer to use a food grade H2o2 = 35% and mix down at 11:1 and use at the final rate of 3ml to a liter. This is figured for soil applications.

For hydro use - 25 gallons of feed solution would get 100 ml of 3% H2O2 on day one and for at least a week (more like 2) add 25 ml back everyday.

This kills root rot. It strengthens your roots and delivers that missing O2 from active root loss, that your needing......The droop is lack of proper O2 to the roots.....FIX THAT....

 

[Dr. Who]

I actually do have clawing, just didnt include it in the pics. Thats what lead me to think i had some nitrogen toxicity and to counter it I used dynagro "grow" for a couple feedings since it has lower N than the foliage pro.

Yeah i think you're right I think its the calmag. The spots have rusted now looks like calcium deficiency. And I'm pretty sure now that I wasnt watering frequent enough because my plants were a little droopy and thats probably why i have the leaves turning a lighter shade, they were hungry lol. I did this my last run too. I'm that odd ball new grower who underfeeds rather than overfeeds like the rest lol.

I always add Si first, then foliage pro, then Ca/mg last. I usually mix nutrients in 30 gallons of RO then top off 10 gallons to reach the max res capacity. Hard to stir if i reach max initially but I assume 30 gal is plenty. Yes, i always mix and record PPM's and PH after each addition of nutrient.

Good reply!

Here's what I see - Your concentrations are too high by mixing and adding more water when done! The thing to change - Is to simply add the Silica to the water that you add at the end!

That's fixed - Now go to the H2O2 part.....

 

[hot cheetos]

Um,,,say what?

How do you over-water hydro?

I suspect some root damage from the high res. temps......

If I were you here. It would be time to go to Hydrogen Peroxide use. The "over-watered" look is from not enough O2 to the roots right now.

I prefer to use a food grade H2o2 = 35% and mix down at 11:1 and use at the final rate of 3ml to a liter. This is figured for soil applications.

For hydro use - 25 gallons of feed solution would get 100 ml of 3% H2O2 on day one and for at least a week (more like 2) add 25 ml back everyday.

This kills root rot. It strengthens your roots and delivers that missing O2 from active root loss, that your needing......The droop is lack of proper O2 to the roots.....FIX THAT....

I have added h202. I didn't really measure but i squirted some 3% in the 30 gal tank. I eyeballed it, i think it was about 1 or 2 ounces. The droop was after 12 hours of no food and the last feeding it had didn't saturate well enough. I picked up the cubes and they were light. I think it was under-watered that time but you're most likely right about the O2 because my res temps were 78-80 up until yesterday when i got a chiller. And as i mentioned earlier in this thread, i had some brown stuff growing in the tanks smelling really earthy and ocean-like. I cleaned the tanks, of course.

 

[Dr. Who]

By cycles you mean feedings right? You fed 5 times during lights on for 15 minutes at a time? How slow does the dripper drip? I have some pictures stored in my memory of people who have thick roots coming out the bottom of their cubes. I cant remember what their application was. I think they had standing water at the bottom of the tray or something. Some of my plants here have some viable roots at the bottoms but i figure its only a matter of time for them to shrivel up and turn brown and die..



"Res is below 70? No need for that shit.." You don't mean no need for the res to be below 70, right?

NO! res must be below 70!!!!!!!

I ran recirculating Flood and drain (Ebb and flow).....5 cycle's a day as listed - perfect.

 

[hot cheetos]

NO! res must be below 70!!!!!!!

I ran recirculating Flood and drain (Ebb and flow).....5 cycle's a day as listed - perfect.

Ah, i see. 15 minutes to fill up the tray, etc. Gotcha. Yeah I'm using drippers so im still fine tuning it to saturate the whole cube better. Almost there.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

His single leaf pic shows verge N.
No claw
Also no tip burn. Indicates the N maybe a tic elevated but everything else is there.
Look at what he's running - Foliage Pro. Greater N to P ratio. That gives the N elevated look, without the "pushing" look of tip burn.



It's not bugs.

RO you say...eh?
5ml of Ca/Mg to every gallon of RO used.

RO has no buffers in it. You must add a Ca/Mg to it at that rate. The other thing with non-buffered RO. It's not pH stable for shit!

The other thing is either add the Silica first or last and the Ca/mg the opposite......BE SURE to mix well (stir) between every part added - especially the Si and the Ca.

Ca and Si can form a precipitate, and cancel each other out - very easy!

If you've ever seen a "cloudy" condition happen in the water/formula as you pour the Si or Ca in....You had that happen. That really screws with shit..... Never mix for a res in a gallon of water and add that to the res. Mix in the res. with all the water present.

Why would you automatically need calcium or magnesium for ro water with a complete nute like foliage pro.

Wouldn't it be better to dial in the fertilizer to the plants needs? It has plenty of both elements.

Does rockwool hold on to calcium and mag like coco?

 

[hot cheetos]

Why would you automatically need calcium or magnesium for ro water with a complete nute like foliage pro.

Wouldn't it be better to dial in the fertilizer to the plants needs? It has plenty of both elements.

Does rockwool hold on to calcium and mag like coco?

Ive heard that mentioned before. That you dont need calmag with foliage pro because it has everything in there. I have no idea...

 

[Dr. Who]

I have added h202. I didn't really measure but i squirted some 3% in the 30 gal tank. I eyeballed it, i think it was about 1 or 2 ounces. The droop was after 12 hours of no food and the last feeding it had didn't saturate well enough. I picked up the cubes and they were light. I think it was under-watered that time but you're most likely right about the O2 because my res temps were 78-80 up until yesterday when i got a chiller. And as i mentioned earlier in this thread, i had some brown stuff growing in the tanks smelling really earthy and ocean-like. I cleaned the tanks, of course.

Yeah! um - ok.

I STRONGLY suggest doing the H2o2 like I listed - 2 weeks of that......Use the formula!!!

It works that way - very well!

 

[hot cheetos]

Good reply!

Here's what I see - Your concentrations are too high by mixing and adding more water when done! The thing to change - Is to simply add the Silica to the water that you add at the end!

That's fixed - Now go to the H2O2 part.....

Can you elaborate on what you mean about the concentrations are too high? To clarify, i start with 30 gallons of RO. I mix in the silica first as the bottle says to always dilute the silica with water first. Then i add the foliage pro, and lastly I add the calmag. Finally, i top off with 10 more gallons of pure RO. By adding the silica last you mean to add the silica to the last pure 10 gallons of RO, then pour it into the tank of 30 gallons of mixed foliage and calmag?

 

[Dr. Who]

Why would you automatically need calcium or magnesium for ro water with a complete nute like foliage pro.

Wouldn't it be better to dial in the fertilizer to the plants needs? It has plenty of both elements.

Does rockwool hold on to calcium and mag like coco?

Because the RO has NO buffer in it! No matter what nutrient you use. You add 5 ml of Ca/Mg to start and then do the nutrients.
No, it doesn't......the rockwool thing.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Ive heard that mentioned before. That you dont need calmag with foliage pro because it has everything in there. I have no idea...

With ro water and a complete nute there is no need to re buffer the water as the nutes have already done that.

But in coco I have learned the medium stubbornly holds in to those elements so most need to add more.

I have no experience with rockwool.

 

[Dr. Who]

Can you elaborate on what you mean about the concentrations are too high? To clarify, i start with 30 gallons of RO. I mix in the silica first as the bottle says to always dilute the silica with water first. Then i add the foliage pro, and lastly I add the calmag. Finally, i top off with 10 more gallons of pure RO. By adding the silica last you mean to add the silica to the last pure 10 gallons of RO, then pour it into the tank of 30 gallons of mixed foliage and calmag?

The concentration of Si to water is still higher then if it was to the full amount of water used - your adding the others to something that is still higher then it could be! Insurance = add the SI to the final top off water and add last...
OR add the Si and then the others to the top off water and add those...

Just adding a another layer of caution. It works

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Because the RO has NO buffer in it! No matter what nutrient you use. You add 5 ml of Ca/Mg to start and then do the nutrients.
No, it doesn't......

This is not correct. It does not matter where the calcium comes from. Mixing complete nutes already includes the elements to buffer the water.

I needed no cal mag added to my ro water to use Kind trio. Or pure Blend Pro despite the warnings.

I have switched to well water since then.

Cal mag was invented by Botanicare to solve an issue growers were having with pure Blend Pro and ro water. Specifically.

And now that kind has extra calcium added and adjustable no more need.

Just marketing to sell bottles.