Almost 1/3 of all homicides in my county 2010-16 were police killings

[Fogdog]

I can't buy this guy's argument. Most complain about people not doing enough or not doing it well. The fact that banks are funded by penalty fees doesn't mean banks aren't performing useful services. People use credit cards all the time. It's shitty that the card is funded through penalties but people use those cards and would cry rivers if they were deprived of then. In some cases, especially contracts with the government where the contract pays on the basis of billable hours, I've seen built in inefficiencies that make the company more profitable. That's not the same as "those services aren't worth anything".

 

[Flowki]

Yeah, I mean how many darkies do we have to kill to improve their condition? White man's work is exhausting. Why can't they just do what we say? It's in their own interests to give us all their resources for nothing. After all we've done for them they owe it to us.

Smearing all white men with the same cynical actions?... definitely not the foundation of racism. You imply only white men do evil things and only against darkies.. while darkies are always the victim. All races have evil men since the beginning of law, all that changed was sticks, stones, arrows, guns and bombs. Truth of the matter is the ''white men'' won the technology race.. don't think for a second the ''darkies'' would not have devoured every country they could (regardless of race) if the tables were turned. Theirs already plenty evidence of that taking place today. Quit thinking it's black V white.

 

[Fogdog]

Dude, let me remind you of the post I was referring to:

Hah, funny enough I feel sorry for the avg well balanced white man in modern times, who are ofc innocent from past traditions. The amount of politically correct angles (some absurd ones) he is under attack from is mind blowing. But then add in the delusional extremism that is within said groups.. it's a horrible position to be in. I could Imagine being a white American cop is a very difficult job.

As ttys kindly demonstrates above, the ability for people to remember the past but forgive and move on is difficult.

The "average well balanced white man is under attack" due to political correctness? Is it such a hardship for the "average white man" to avoid saying insulting and bigoted things? Oh the humanity.

Smearing all white men with the same cynical actions?... definitely not the foundation of racism. You imply only white men do evil things and only against darkies.. while darkies are always the victim. All races have evil men since the beginning of law, all that changed was sticks, stones, arrows, guns and bombs. Truth of the matter is the ''white men'' won the technology race.. don't think for a second the ''darkies'' would not have devoured every country they could (regardless of race) if the tables were turned. Theirs already plenty evidence of that taking place today. Quit thinking it's black V white.

Now you start talking about an alternate universe that didn't happen as justification for British sacking the treasury of the rulers of India and putting it's people under the yoke of British land lords and capitalists? Or the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs and Peruvians, not to mention all lands in between except for Brazil, where the Portuguese were doing their best to emulate the Spanish? What you just did was make a "yeah but" argument. Yeah, white people devoured the people and riches of what is now Latin America but they would have done the same if they could. Please read that sentence again and tell me you don't see the fallacy of that argument.

Historical references aside, you can't deny the fact that white male dominated corporations are literally sucking wealth from the lands of dark people. Meanwhile, they dump waste or run environmentally damaging plants that will cause problems for generations. The justification is money. It is also called environmental racism for a good reason.

 

[ttystikk]

Dude, let me remind you of the post I was referring to:


The "average well balanced white man is under attack" due to political correctness? Is it such a hardship for the "average white man" to avoid saying insulting and bigoted things? Oh the humanity.


Now you start talking about an alternate universe that didn't happen as justification for British sacking the treasury of the rulers of India and putting it's people under the yoke of British land lords and capitalists? Or the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs and Peruvians, not to mention all lands in between except for Brazil, where the Portuguese were doing their best to emulate the Spanish? What you just did was make a "yeah but" argument. Yeah, white people devoured the people and riches of what is now Latin America but they would have done the same if they could. Please read that sentence again and tell me you don't see the fallacy of that argument.

Historical references aside, you can't deny the fact that white male dominated corporations are literally sucking wealth from the lands of dark people. Meanwhile, they dump waste or run environmentally damaging plants that will cause problems for generations. The justification is money. It is also called environmental racism for a good reason.

I'm convinced that flukey is incapable of learning. He's had his chances.

 

[Rob Roy]

LOL this is hysterical coming from you!

Hysterical? Well, I'm not just a comedian, I can sing and dance too.

 

[Flowki]

Dude, let me remind you of the post I was referring to:


The "average well balanced white man is under attack" due to political correctness? Is it such a hardship for the "average white man" to avoid saying insulting and bigoted things? Oh the humanity.

The average well balanced white man is no bigot. But, because he is white he ticks the unfortunate boxes of being a applicable target for the extremists/ignorance of groups/individuals that exist in bigger minority groups or movements. Black lives matter, feminist movement etc. They are good groups in essence but offer a safe place for certain types of people (more and more of them becoming delusional) to have moronic views that can not be challenged or ''you racist'' etc. A black board can not be called a black board as somebody took offense (true story). So lets call it a white board instead. What?.

Now you start talking about an alternate universe that didn't happen as justification for British sacking the treasury of the rulers of India and putting it's people under the yoke of British land lords and capitalists? Or the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs and Peruvians, not to mention all lands in between except for Brazil, where the Portuguese were doing their best to emulate the Spanish? What you just did was make a "yeah but" argument. Yeah, white people devoured the people and riches of what is now Latin America but they would have done the same if they could. Please read that sentence again and tell me you don't see the fallacy of that argument.

My statement is so far from alternate universe I begin to wonder if before this, the only history you actually knew was American?. Many empires of many races existed before the British.. go check those and realize how bloody wrong you are. Evil men are of all races. Empires rise and fall, as Britain's did. Can't you see what empire is rising right now?. They aint white.. and already dismantling America, knocking down the standard of life for ALL Americans, not just ''whites'' or ''darkies''. Economics is the new war.. cheap labor one of the weapons. It's indiscriminate of race.. if something is to be stolen and somebody know how to steal it, it will be stolen. Human nature.

Historical references aside, you can't deny the fact that white male dominated corporations are literally sucking wealth from the lands of dark people. Meanwhile, they dump waste or run environmentally damaging plants that will cause problems for generations. The justification is money. It is also called environmental racism for a good reason.

I don't deny it. I deny your idea that it's racially motivated or branding all white men evil. It landed how it landed, ''darkies'' had resources to steal and at this point in time it was ''whiteys'' who had the technology to steal it, but it isn't just whites, look at Israel. Again check previous empires dating back hundreds of years.. notice how they had the most devastating war tactics of the time, they were not white and they took form who ever they could.

Racism exists on all sides ofc.. but many white men have saved millions of colored lives during bad times and at great risk to themselves and family. Don't brand them all with this brush, it's damn right insulting.

 

[Fogdog]

The average well balanced white man is no bigot. But, because he is white he ticks the unfortunate boxes of being a applicable target for the extremists/ignorance of groups/individuals that exist in bigger minority groups or movements. Black lives matter, feminist movement etc. They are good groups in essence but offer a safe place for certain types of people (more and more of them becoming delusional) to have moronic views that can not be challenged or ''you racist'' etc. A black board can not be called a black board as somebody took offense (true story). So lets call it a white board instead. What?.




My statement is so far from alternate universe I begin to wonder if before this, the only history you actually knew was American?. Many empires of many races existed before the British.. go check those and realize how bloody wrong you are. Evil men are of all races. Empires rise and fall, as Britain's did. Can't you see what empire is rising right now?. They aint white.. and already dismantling America, knocking down the standard of life for ALL Americans, not just ''whites'' or ''darkies''. Economics is the new war.. cheap labor one of the weapons. It's indiscriminate of race.. if something is to be stolen and somebody know how to steal it, it will be stolen. Human nature.



I don't deny it. I deny your idea that it's racially motivated or branding all white men evil. It landed how it landed, ''darkies'' had resources to steal and at this point in time it was ''whiteys'' who had the technology to steal it, but it isn't just whites, look at Israel. Again check previous empires dating back hundreds of years.. notice how they had the most devastating war tactics of the time, they were not white and they took form who ever they could.

Racism exists on all sides ofc.. but many white men have saved millions of colored lives during bad times and at great risk to themselves and family. Don't brand them all with this brush, it's damn right insulting.

OK, now we are getting somewhere.

"The average well balanced white man is no bigot"

I can speak for the US and say yes he is. Half of the white male adult population in the US is of the opinion that African Americans don't experience hardship due to their skin color in the US. Half say that. Do you think the same? In Australia, do you think racism isn't causing hardship of a racial group? Like, perhaps, aborigines?

So, yes, half the white men in the US are racists to some degree. Behind that is systemic racism that we inherited. Systemic racism (or structural racism) is inequalities in power, access, opportunities, treatment, and policy impacts and outcomes, whether they are intentional or not. We only removed laws of segregation in the south 50 years ago. The northern and western states have their own history of unequal treatment of non-white people. Systemic racism is very prevalent everywhere in the US. It shows up in statistics of pay, employment, health issues, death by cop and incarceration rates. Beyond the 50% who are "unaware" of racism towards African Americans, many more support the status quo, which is systemically racist.

Overt racism is easy to prove. Individual acts of systemic racism are not so easy to prove as racist. It can be shown statistically that certain policies are racist by their effect even if the intent isn't overtly racist. This is why I extend the claim that international corporate acts are racist. All European, and US based corporations are controlled by white people and some really bad actors like Shell Oil and Exxon do things in non-white countries that would never be permitted within their native borders. And people like you just shrug. The intent isn't overt but the effect is clear. White dominated corporations are sucking the life out of non-white communities. Systemic racism -- inequalities in power, access, opportunities, treatment, and policy can be shown to exist in international behavior of corporations controlled by white people. Can you give me an example where something like the actions of oil companies in South Sudan being done to a white populated region? Please stay current and non-fictional. The actions of the Mongol Empire aren't relevant. Nor is Darth Vader.

I still hear this "yeah but" argument. Yeah but Chinese can be racist. What a dumb argument. If Chinese actions are racist that's wrong too. A big problem today is white racism causing unequal quality of life among dark populations in many places of the world. For me in particular, white racism in the US is causing terrible division and loss of opportunity to entire generations of our society. Also racism brought us Trump and the right wing Congress who are fucking our government up.

 

[Fogdog]

My statement is so far from alternate universe I begin to wonder if before this, the only history you actually knew was American?. Many empires of many races existed before the British.. go check those and realize how bloody wrong you are. Evil men are of all races. Empires rise and fall, as Britain's did. Can't you see what empire is rising right now?. They aint white.. and already dismantling America, knocking down the standard of life for ALL Americans, not just ''whites'' or ''darkies''. Economics is the new war.. cheap labor one of the weapons. It's indiscriminate of race.. if something is to be stolen and somebody know how to steal it, it will be stolen. Human nature.

I chose to address this separately because it is your largest piece of bullshit and based on propaganda fed to the fearful middle classes who are in fact watching their economic status decay.

"Can I see what empire is rising right now?". Actually what I see rising right now are not non-white societies like China. What I see rising are multinational corporations that have no roots in any country. These corporations are controlled by multi-billionaires. I see rising, not an empire in any classical sense, but an oligarchy of supremely wealthy individuals who control enormous resources in almost every part of the world. They use the politics of division to keep common people from uniting. Racial divisions are part of it. Your little story about how a non-white empire is rising, dismantling America and pulling down our standard of life is one of their stories. It's fake. What is pulling down our standard of life in the US is the growth of extreme disparity in wealth over the past 60 or so years. Racism brought us the current government -- of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation. This government is all about coddling the ultra wealthy and not going to help struggling middle class white racists who voted for them one bit. Racism is a tool of economic elites to divide and coerce fearful people who are convinced that the enemy is their brother, and not the rising ultra wealthy oligarchy.

 

[st0wandgrow]

I chose to address this separately because it is your largest piece of bullshit and based on propaganda fed to the fearful middle classes who are in fact watching their economic status decay.

"Can I see what empire is rising right now?". Actually what I see rising right now are not non-white societies like China. What I see rising are multinational corporations that have no roots in any country. These corporations are controlled by multi-billionaires. I see rising, not an empire in any classical sense, but an oligarchy of supremely wealthy individuals who control enormous resources in almost every part of the world. They use the politics of division to keep common people from uniting. Racial divisions are part of it. Your little story about how a non-white empire is rising, dismantling America and pulling down our standard of life is one of their stories. It's fake. What is pulling down our standard of life in the US is the growth of extreme disparity in wealth over the past 60 or so years. Racism brought us the current government -- of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation. This government is all about coddling the ultra wealthy and not going to help struggling middle class white racists who voted for them one bit. Racism is a tool of economic elites to divide and coerce fearful people who are convinced that the enemy is their brother, and not the rising ultra wealthy oligarchy.

Well said. I could not agree more with your sentiments.

I do have to ask you a question about a specific part of your post though...

What I see rising are multinational corporations that have no roots in any country....an oligarchy of supremely wealthy individuals who control enormous resources in almost every part of the world. They use the politics of division to keep common people from uniting. Racial divisions are part of it.

I particurily agree with the above quote. There has been class warfare waged in this country (and around the globe) for quite some time now, and they use certain issues, racial divisions included, to keep the population divided in an effort to protect their immense wealth and power.

I think we're both in agreement with that.

We also know that racism is a learned behavior.

SO, with both of those points in mind, would you not also agree that the constant accusations of "racism", the bickering, the labeling, etc is playing right in to the hands of the very people that you correctly identify as being the problem?

IMO there are a lot of well intentioned people that are as much a part of this problem as the racists/sexists/homophobes/etc that they deride.

 

[ttystikk]

I chose to address this separately because it is your largest piece of bullshit and based on propaganda fed to the fearful middle classes who are in fact watching their economic status decay.

"Can I see what empire is rising right now?". Actually what I see rising right now are not non-white societies like China. What I see rising are multinational corporations that have no roots in any country. These corporations are controlled by multi-billionaires. I see rising, not an empire in any classical sense, but an oligarchy of supremely wealthy individuals who control enormous resources in almost every part of the world. They use the politics of division to keep common people from uniting. Racial divisions are part of it. Your little story about how a non-white empire is rising, dismantling America and pulling down our standard of life is one of their stories. It's fake. What is pulling down our standard of life in the US is the growth of extreme disparity in wealth over the past 60 or so years. Racism brought us the current government -- of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation. This government is all about coddling the ultra wealthy and not going to help struggling middle class white racists who voted for them one bit. Racism is a tool of economic elites to divide and coerce fearful people who are convinced that the enemy is their brother, and not the rising ultra wealthy oligarchy.

Bravo! I could not agree more and in fact I've been saying substantially the same thing for years now- only to have you and Buck question why I focus on this instead of social issues.

THIS is the real war; it's a war on the lower class and on the citizen's right to vote and have their interests be properly represented in their government.

And it's a war the citizens are losing. Trump is the symptom, not the cause.

 

[Fogdog]

Well said. I could not agree more with your sentiments.

I do have to ask you a question about a specific part of your post though...



I particurily agree with the above quote. There has been class warfare waged in this country (and around the globe) for quite some time now, and they use certain issues, racial divisions included, to keep the population divided in an effort to protect their immense wealth and power.

I think we're both in agreement with that.

We also know that racism is a learned behavior.

SO, with both of those points in mind, would you not also agree that the constant accusations of "racism", the bickering, the labeling, etc is playing right in to the hands of the very people that you correctly identify as being the problem?

IMO there are a lot of well intentioned people that are as much a part of this problem as the racists/sexists/homophobes/etc that they deride.

I don't think that racists are actually all that amenable to reform. I think reform has to come from something inside the racist. What causes the desire to change is probably different for everybody. Half of all white men in the US (approximately) believe that black people don't experience difficulty due to their skin color. That is about 1/3 of the adult population. Waiting for them to "become educated" is hopeless. We are going to live and die with these people claiming they don't see racism as a problem when it very clearly is.

I think the answer to the power-elites' use of racism as a tool to divide is to consciously support our black and brown brothers and all sisters by considering bigoted speech harmful to others and say so. To make bigots uncomfortable and stop it. Maybe the next generation will be better.

I'm hearing African Americans asking for this kind of support.

For example, these posts from London:

I stopped turning the other cheek long ago.

You know I don't judge all people the same. I let you show me who you are. Even for people like @twostrokenut , @schuylaar I believe if they can truly see themselves they can change, but they have to want to. @tampee is a fucking lost cause because not only is he ignorant, but he is very stupid as well. Bad combination.
Heres a vid of a white person fighting against racism. This on that @UncleBuck level...awesomeness

I love me some Colleen Dagg. Need some more of her in the world

London is saying he confronts when faced with racist shit. He invites us to join him in support. This isn't comfortable for white people to do but I think it needs doing.

I'm interested in hearing your ideas. What I can't accept is the status quo on race relations.

 

[Fogdog]

Bravo! I could not agree more and in fact I've been saying substantially the same thing for years now- only to have you and Buck question why I focus on this instead of social issues.

THIS is the real war; it's a war on the lower class and on the citizen's right to vote and have their interests be properly represented in their government.

And it's a war the citizens are losing. Trump is the symptom, not the cause.

I think you miss the point. Did you know that people who voted for Trump were mostly motivated by social issues and not economic ones? If we can use Trump and GOP congress as a proxy for "losing the class war" then the answer that leads to victory is through social issues. I'd also say that a united lower class will do a better job of looking out for their best economic interests than the 1% will as well.

Several studies show the same result. Economic issues didn't relate to choices between Clinton and Trump. People's attitudes towards racism and sexism were strongly related to their choice.

Some reading if you are willing to challenge your assumption that economics and class are the real problem:

Explaining White Polarization in the 2016 Vote for President: The Sobering Role of Racism and Sexism

http://people.umass.edu/schaffne/schaffner_et_al_IDC_conference.pdf

'His Ideology Is White Supremacy': Ta-Nehisi Coates On Donald Trump
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/09/07/549098169/his-ideology-is-white-supremacy-ta-nehisi-coates-on-donald-trump

Trump was dominant across nearly every socio-economic sector of white America. It was not simply that he rose on the strength of the white working class. He rose on the strength of all of white America.

anybody who wants to make a class-based argument must explain why the black working class, the Latino working class, didn't break the same way. They are just as afflicted by forces of globalization and economic change, deindustrialization, et cetera. And yet they didn't break to Trump.

The First White President
The foundation of Donald Trump’s presidency is the negation of Barack Obama’s legacy.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/

 

[st0wandgrow]

I don't think that racists are actually all that amenable to reform. I think reform has to come from something inside the racist. What causes the desire to change is probably different for everybody. Half of all white men in the US (approximately) believe that black people don't experience difficulty due to their skin color. That is about 1/3 of the adult population. Waiting for them to "become educated" is hopeless. We are going to live and die with these people claiming they don't see racism as a problem when it very clearly is.

I think the answer to the power-elites' use of racism as a tool to divide is to consciously support our black and brown brothers and all sisters by considering bigoted speech harmful to others and say so. To make bigots uncomfortable and stop it. Maybe the next generation will be better.

I'm hearing African Americans asking for this kind of support.

For example, these posts from London:




London is saying he confronts when faced with racist shit. He invites us to join him in support. This isn't comfortable for white people to do but I think it needs doing.

I'm interested in hearing your ideas. What I can't accept is the status quo on race relations.

I agree with you that overtly racist speech needs to be called out. I'm not at all suggesting that it should be tolerated.

I do feel that there is a certain segment of society that is so entrenched in their beliefs that they will never change. That's a small minority though. I believe that the vast majority of people that are labeled as racists can be turned around. People are more open to hearing you out if they're approached as your equal and not talked down to. Presenting them with facts, reason, and real world experiences as opposed to ridicule and name calling. Something as simple as a kind gesture from a minority could be all it takes. Challenge their preconceived notions, but do it with respect.

Maybe that's a bunch of pie-in-the-sky thinking, but I do know for certain that when you attempt to shame someone and pepper them with grade school insults, they will only dig their heels in and close their mind to whatever message you're trying to convey.

I consider someone like Barrack Obama to be far more in the know than I when it comes to this issue. If he says that we need to meet the hate with understanding and kindness, then I will defer to him and follow his lead.

 

[Fogdog]

I agree with you that overtly racist speech needs to be called out. I'm not at all suggesting that it should be tolerated.

I do feel that there is a certain segment of society that is so entrenched in their beliefs that they will never change. That's a small minority though. I believe that the vast majority of people that are labeled as racists can be turned around. People are more open to hearing you out if they're approached as your equal and not talked down to. Presenting them with facts, reason, and real world experiences as opposed to ridicule and name calling. Something as simple as a kind gesture from a minority could be all it takes. Challenge their preconceived notions, but do it with respect.

Maybe that's a bunch of pie-in-the-sky thinking, but I do know for certain that when you attempt to shame someone and pepper them with grade school insults, they will only dig their heels in and close their mind to whatever message you're trying to convey.

I consider someone like Barrack Obama to be far more in the know than I when it comes to this issue. If he says that we need to meet the hate with understanding and kindness, then I will defer to him and follow his lead.

OK. so as with what London said, he let's others tell him who they are. I can go along with the idea of waiting for others to reveal and be polite until then.

I've made mistakes before by jumping the gun based upon false assumptions of who they are. And regret it. I had an encounter with @Gquebed yesterday where in retrospect I was too harsh. Unfair, really. This is said as an apology to him if he reads this. And so, I'll tone my shit down. I do care about people but I'm kind of a jerk too.

 

[ttystikk]

OK. so as with what London said, he let's others tell him who they are. I can go along with the idea of waiting for others to reveal and be polite until then.

I've made mistakes before by jumping the gun based upon false assumptions of who they are. And regret it. I had an encounter with @Gquebed yesterday where in retrospect I was too harsh. Unfair, really. This is said as an apology to him if he reads this. And so, I'll tone my shit down. I do care about people but I'm kind of a jerk too.

And it must be said that it's very, very easy to be a jerk when it comes to this stuff- not pointing any fingers.

No surprise that it's so effective as a tool to divide the populace against itself and thus allow the elites to manipulate them.

 

[Fogdog]

 

[ttystikk]

View attachment 4007307

I'm as guilty as the next guy. That's actually a big reason why I'm choosing to focus on the economic aspects of our political situation, in the hopes that I can make more headway there.

 

[StonerCol]

you think England is the most trustworthy partner in the colonization and development of Africa?

Hey we made the blueprint for exploiting people of another land, stealing their resources then shooting them when they complained.
But then they were Godless black savages so not only were we taking what was rightfully ours but the savages had it coming to them because...well they're savages.
To be fair though the Dutch, Portuguese, French and Belgians weren't too far behind us so yeah, let us Europeans fix things......
And now that you have corrupt leaders in countries like Nigeria who need to stash their looted bounty somewhere, we provide cosy little bank accounts in places where it is safe from prying eyes. Or we let them set up shell companies so they can buy up property in London at inflated prices - which these corrupt people can afford cos it aint their money - and meanwhile Londoners can't afford to buy a house. And the govt. does nothing because some of this money finds its' way into their coffers.
Then the govt. decides that every construction company that builds houses also has to build a few affordable ones for ordinary workers. Unless they decide they don't want to, then that company can pay a bit of cash to the govt. instead of building those houses........

 

[ttystikk]

Hey we made the blueprint for exploiting people of another land, stealing their resources then shooting them when they complained.
But then they were Godless black savages so not only were we taking what was rightfully ours but the savages had it coming to them because...well they're savages.
To be fair though the Dutch, Portuguese, French and Belgians weren't too far behind us so yeah, let us Europeans fix things......
And now that you have corrupt leaders in countries like Nigeria who need to stash their looted bounty somewhere, we provide cosy little bank accounts in places where it is safe from prying eyes. Or we let them set up shell companies so they can buy up property in London at inflated prices - which these corrupt people can afford cos it aint their money - and meanwhile Londoners can't afford to buy a house. And the govt. does nothing because some of this money finds its' way into their coffers.
Then the govt. decides that every construction company that builds houses also has to build a few affordable ones for ordinary workers. Unless they decide they don't want to, then that company can pay a bit of cash to the govt. instead of building those houses........

TRUTH, spoken right here.

 

[StonerCol]

TRUTH, spoken right here.

And just to prove that Brits still have what it takes to show the world a thing or 2....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-brexit-power-grab-plan-election-lost-majority-parliament-rig-a7937081.html
Fuck, I'm so proud of my country.....