Not another strip build

[cobshopgrow]

?
what else do i say?
meanwell drivers are isolated, i know none which isnt, therefore grounding the frame give no benefit.
its not what youve said, you say you should ground your frame when using a isolated meanwell driver.

or as you wrote, can even cause problems, extra nosie grounding your dc side (the frame).

maybe link to what youve found.

here is another general explanation.
"Currently in the general LED lighting market, there is a non-isolated and isolated difference for driver powers. Non-isolated design is limited to double insulation products, such as light bulbs alternative products, including LED and the product are integrated and sealed in a non-conductive plastic, so the end user does not have any risk of electric shock. Products of Class II are isolated, the price is relatively expensive, but the user can access to the LED and output wiring place (usually applied in LED lighting and street lighting), this product is essential.



With isolation transformer or electrical isolation LED driver power supply means that the LED can be directly touched by hand without electric shock. Without isolation transformer, though it still can make use of protective shell to achieve some mechanical insulation, but this time the LED can not be in direct contact with when at work."

Isolated LED Driver Vs Non-isolated LED Driver | Architectural Lighting Developer & Manufacturer in China

Currently in the general LED lighting market, there is a non-isolated and isolated difference for driver powers. Non-isolated design is limited to double insulation products, such as light bulbs alternative products, including LED and the …

www.ledaplus.com

but best is really the first link i posted.
"With an isolated power supply, like any of the Mean Well LED drivers, I can take the wires meant for the LEDs and take them right to ground potential with no problems, no damage, and no current flow (it is the current that kills). This is a safety test I do with most everything I analyze if I'm actually digging in to a light fixture. Non-isolated means that the current would flow. "

he is comparing unisolated drivers in lightbulbs and compare it to isolated like the meanwells, he is of course refering to the ground potential comming out of your wall, AC side,as you do.

 

[ThatKidiscrying]

?
what else do i say?
meanwell drivers are isolated, i know none which isnt, therefore grounding the frame give no benefit.
its not what youve said, you say you should ground your frame when using a isolated meanwell driver.

or as you wrote, can even cause problems, extra nosie grounding your dc side (the frame).

maybe link to what youve found.

here is another general explanation.
"Currently in the general LED lighting market, there is a non-isolated and isolated difference for driver powers. Non-isolated design is limited to double insulation products, such as light bulbs alternative products, including LED and the product are integrated and sealed in a non-conductive plastic, so the end user does not have any risk of electric shock. Products of Class II are isolated, the price is relatively expensive, but the user can access to the LED and output wiring place (usually applied in LED lighting and street lighting), this product is essential.



With isolation transformer or electrical isolation LED driver power supply means that the LED can be directly touched by hand without electric shock. Without isolation transformer, though it still can make use of protective shell to achieve some mechanical insulation, but this time the LED can not be in direct contact with when at work."

Isolated LED Driver Vs Non-isolated LED Driver | Architectural Lighting Developer & Manufacturer in China

Currently in the general LED lighting market, there is a non-isolated and isolated difference for driver powers. Non-isolated design is limited to double insulation products, such as light bulbs alternative products, including LED and the …

www.ledaplus.com

but best is really the first link i posted.
"With an isolated power supply, like any of the Mean Well LED drivers, I can take the wires meant for the LEDs and take them right to ground potential with no problems, no damage, and no current flow (it is the current that kills). This is a safety test I do with most everything I analyze if I'm actually digging in to a light fixture. Non-isolated means that the current would flow. "

he is comparing unisolated drivers in lightbulbs and compare it to isolated like the meanwells, he is of course refering to the ground potential comming out of your wall, AC side,as you do.

If the mean-well driver operates as Intended it’s safe. I think a ground would be best if it didn’t cause problems.

 

[a2lute]

So here's the power harness, gonna have about 4A running at 240VAC. Connectors are aviation connectors rated for 10A @250V, this is just to keep open slots on my power box. I'm much happier running higher voltage over distance. I know the line loss would probably be negligible, but I'm anal about shit like this. Hookup wire should be in today, hopefully I'll be able to get them running, get y'all some pix & lux readings.

 

[cobshopgrow]

haha, yes can understand, i have my driver remote also and went that way.
whats the trick welding aluminium?
never did... cheap welder plus any special precaution to keep the o2 away? sand or whatever.

regarding grounding frames, think it wont hurt in most cases (noise etc., clean gnd) but it may not the lifesaver some think it is.

 

[ThatKidiscrying]

haha, yes can understand, i have my driver remote also and went that way.
whats the trick welding aluminium?
never did... cheap welder plus any special precaution to keep the o2 away? sand or whatever.

regarding grounding frames, think it wont hurt in most cases (noise etc., clean gnd) but it may not the lifesaver some think it is.

He’s not remote mounting the driver. He’s talking about is 240 incoming power to the driver.

 

[cobshopgrow]

yea, but he is using 24 so he stay close and run the distance with 240.
i use the a higher voltage and have mine remote, goal is the same.

 

[ThatKidiscrying]

yea, but he is using 24 so he stay close and run the distance with 240.
i use the a higher voltage and have mine remote, goal is the same.

What ?

You can run 120ac @8 amps or 240ac 4 amps for a long way but it’s dependent on wire size. 240 was just what he chose to use.

I’m curious as to what gauge wire he’s using and how far the run is.

 

[cobshopgrow]

no secret, the voltage drop calc i linked telling the same.
he is using 24v, but is staying nearby his strips with it and run the distance with 240v as far u nderstood.
i wrote "also" thats misleading, omg.
myself is using 153v to the led, but drivers are remote.
so he is using 240 for the distance , me is usnig 153 to keep the A low, same goal.

 

[1212ham]

whats the trick welding aluminium?
never did... cheap welder plus any special precaution to keep the o2 away? sand or whatever.

If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
It's normally done with a MIG (wire feed) or TIG welder. A shielding gas like argon keeps the o2 away. More skill and knowledge is needed to TIG weld aluminum, but MIG welding aluminum isn't much more difficult than steel. In the first picture, the TIG torch is lying on the drawing.

 

[Airwalker16]

View attachment 4521014View attachment 4521016
So here's the power harness, gonna have about 4A running at 240VAC. Connectors are aviation connectors rated for 10A @250V, this is just to keep open slots on my power box. I'm much happier running higher voltage over distance. I know the line loss would probably be negligible, but I'm anal about shit like this. Hookup wire should be in today, hopefully I'll be able to get them running, get y'all some pix & lux readings.

+1 for aviation connectors. They're super cool. I loved using them on one of my builds. Just gotta mak sure to stay away from anything more than 5 or 6 pins though or else it can get frustratingly tight soldering to each pin. I use marine heatshrink with internal glue after soldering every pin too. I didn't feel safe leaving it without. They're all just too close together..
Just slide 1/2" or so of heatshrink on the wire before you do it, slide it down over the entire thing and shrink it on. That way each one's isolated and can't touch.

 

[printer]

The reasoning for grounding the metal frame is in case something malfunctions and shorts to it. If you touch the metal and was on a damp floor you could get a shock. If the driver shorts to the frame it will draw a lot of current hopefully tripping a breaker. Not saying so much the Led driver, but an electrical device. The frame can be left floating, there is no indication if the malfunction has occurred. Potentially an unsafe voltage could develop with no indication but a lot of things would have to go wrong, say the driver having a meltdown. (Hey, why are my Leds not on?) A GFI for the 240V coming to the driver would be a good idea, if something goes wrong and there is current going to ground causing an imbalance between the hot and the neural wills shut off the power. 240V GFI's usually would be installed in the panel.

I wish I heid a bottle of argon, I would prefer welding but rivets and epoxy might do

 

[ThatKidiscrying]

no secret, the voltage drop calc i linked telling the same.
he is using 24v, but is staying nearby his strips with it and run the distance with 240v as far u nderstood.
i wrote "also" thats misleading, omg.
myself is using 153v to the led, but drivers are remote.
so he is using 240 for the distance , me is usnig 153 to keep the A low, same goal.

Yah he never said how far he was running the wire and never said what gauge the wire he’s using. You can run 14ga 25’ on a 120v 15 amp circuit or 50’ if you use 240v.

 

[ThatKidiscrying]

+1 for aviation connectors. They're super cool. I loved using them on one of my builds. Just gotta mak sure to stay away from anything more than 5 or 6 pins though or else it can get frustratingly tight soldering to each pin. I use marine heatshrink with internal glue after soldering every pin too. I didn't feel safe leaving it without. They're all just too close together..
Just slide 1/2" or so of heatshrink on the wire before you do it, slide it down over the entire thing and shrink it on. That way each one's isolated and can't touch.

I like to solder every wire connection and then provide restraint. I don’t use connectors, only one plug at the wall. No wagos, wire nuts, connectors, etc. Nothing to fail.

 

[a2lute]

Cobshop, the trick to welding aluminum is prep & practice. The joint should be clean enough for an open heart surgery! I use acetone to remove any grease or oils, then use a stainless steel brush to take off the aluminum oxide layer. And I consider myself a hobbyist welder, I'm no where near good enough to make a living doing it.

Also my welder is cheap, @ $900 it is from 1968 and it is one of the most basic machines that can do AL. It has copper coils & stick welds like a dream. If you saw my garage you would understand I've got a thing for old school

 

[Airwalker16]

I like to solder every wire connection and then provide restraint. I don’t use connectors, only one plug at the wall. No wagos, wire nuts, connectors, etc. Nothing to fail.

As do I. Just referring to the pins in the aviator connectors you have to solder to

 

[a2lute]

I found these the other day, I have them on order and they're a week or two out. I'll retrofit them in when I get them, but it will make adjusting the drivers a breeze!

US Car DC 12-24V Dual LED Digital Display Voltmeter Ammeter Amp Volt Meter Gauge | eBay

Display:LED digital tube. Display color:Green,Red,Blue. No exception. Applications: Suitable for all 12-24V vehicle installation.Such as.

www.ebay.com

 

[1212ham]

Check them against a DMM, the ones I bought don't have great accuracy.

 

[boybelue]

Cobshop, the trick to welding aluminum is prep & practice. The joint should be clean enough for an open heart surgery! I use acetone to remove any grease or oils, then use a stainless steel brush to take off the aluminum oxide layer. And I consider myself a hobbyist welder, I'm no where near good enough to make a living doing it.

Also my welder is cheap, @ $900 it is from 1968 and it is one of the most basic machines that can do AL. It has copper coils & stick welds like a dream. If you saw my garage you would understand I've got a thing for old school

At the shop where I worked we had a TIG setup that is used in conjunction with a stick welder. A lot of times I had to weld engine parts like oil pans or timing covers where a threaded boss or something got damaged in a wreck. Sealing aluminum where it doesn’t have a pinhole is quite difficult and it took me a long time to figure out the quench. She would cool down , shrink and pull a crank right back. Aluminum and Cast Iron is a pita to weld. If only every metal welded like steel, mig is a breeze.

Also I don’t ground anything that I don’t have to. Most houses don’t have anything that can ground you to earth and as long as you only touch the hot leg your safe. I can put my finger right on one of the 120v legs in my breaker box, like a bird on a power line but bring that earth ground close enough for that bird to reach and zap, bye bye birdie. Having a ground can work both ways, it can be safe or it can kill you. It’s only safe when that hot leg comes in direct contact with the ground and a lot of times if you ground the frame of something your likely to touch the hot leg and be holding the frame with the other hand which will make you the conductor. So in some cases imo it may be better to go without the ground. It’s just common sense to know when you need it and when you dont. I personally (with remote drivers) don’t want anything in my tent grounded. It’s like being in a room in a house or in a wooden box with a live wire dangling from the ceiling, it can’t hurt you as long as the wood is good and dry and isn’t green enough to conduct. But throw down a ground wire from the ceiling and you created a potential to be shocked. So in my tent as long as the DC circuit isn’t broken I can touch the circuit without shock as long as there is nothing in the tent to ground me.

 

[a2lute]

At the shop where I worked we had a TIG setup that is used in conjunction with a stick welder. A lot of times I had to weld engine parts like oil pans or timing covers where a threaded boss or something got damaged in a wreck. Sealing aluminum where it doesn’t have a pinhole is quite difficult and it took me a long time to figure out the quench. She would cool down , shrink and pull a crank right back. Aluminum and Cast Iron is a pita to weld. If only every metal welded like steel, mig is a breeze.

Also I don’t ground anything that I don’t have to. Most houses don’t have anything that can ground you to earth and as long as you only touch the hot leg your safe. I can put my finger right on one of the 120v legs in my breaker box, like a bird on a power line but bring that earth ground close enough for that bird to reach and zap, bye bye birdie. Having a ground can work both ways, it can be safe or it can kill you. It’s only safe when that hot leg comes in direct contact with the ground and a lot of times if you ground the frame of something your likely to touch the hot leg and be holding the frame with the other hand which will make you the conductor. So in some cases imo it may be better to go without the ground. It’s just common sense to know when you need it and when you dont. I personally (with remote drivers) don’t want anything in my tent grounded. It’s like being in a room in a house or in a wooden box with a live wire dangling from the ceiling, it can’t hurt you as long as the wood is good and dry and isn’t green enough to conduct. But throw down a ground wire from the ceiling and you created a potential to be shocked. So in my tent as long as the DC circuit isn’t broken I can touch the circuit without shock as long as there is nothing in the tent to ground me.

You were dealing with a whole different animal. Cast aluminum is a alloy that doesn't weld as easily, and is porous. This means that all that oil in that engine is BURIED up in that thing. What's the biggest part of welding AL? Cleanliness. Cast is annoying to weld, I just OA or tig braze wherever I can.

On a side note, my wire is 3 days late, and still not here. Gonna hook this thing up with NM-B wires, swear to God...

 

[1212ham]

So in some cases imo it may be better to go without the ground. It’s just common sense to know when you need it and when you dont.

Electricians use "the left hand rule", they make sure their left hand isn't touching ground when working on live circuits with their right hand.
Working in a live breaker box with the right hand while leaning on the box with the left hand is all to common, and really dangerous.

I agree there are situations were grounding can be less safe, but I don't think it's common sense. A good understanding of electricity and the safety issues is anything but common. I think we have more understanding of electricity than most here, but I've considered contacting an EE I know for his opinion on grounding light frames.

My remote mounted driver is grounded, but not the light frame. In the very unlikely event of a driver failure that shorts AC to the DC output, (without tripping the breaker), I don't want to be grounded by the frame if I touch the DC output wire that's shorted to AC.
Bottom line, use a Ground Fault Interrupter !!