Do I need to defoliate more?

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
Youre wrong. The biology and mechanisms that drive the plant solely revolve around it reproducing and making seeds. How does that translate into seedless, hard, dense, heavy ass flowers that are covered in trichomes? It doesn't. no one is saying that removing leaves comes without a cost or that the plant can feed itself efficiently without leaves, at least I'm not. But strategic and we'll placed defoliation techniques have 100% been shown to increase yields in commercial grows on a SQ ft of canopy basis.
Seedless = Nothing to do with or without keeping leafs
Hardness = genetics
Dense = ample energy and food coming from the leafs
covered with trichomes = ample energy coming from leafs

So yeah just about everything that has to do with the way we like our buds has to do with the leafs.

But prove me wrong, please point to one single study that shows that defoliation increases yields in commercial grows. Just one, that's all we've asked from this camp, one single study. All we ever get is some stoner who says, "yeah dude, look at these plants," but no controlled study or side by side. Sorry guy, you're talking out of your ass.
 

Tetrahedral

Well-Known Member
By the end of a grow these defoliators have grown three times as much leaf as someone who didn't, are they not aware of this fact.
 

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
Whenever something like this comes up, like flushing as well, I wonder why the rest of the growing world doesn't do it. Surely all these industries that are worth billions and billions of dollars would jump on the band wagon if they could grow better product. And yet no industry flushes and defoliates.
 

Flowki

Well-Known Member
No skin in this argument but it should be mentioned that mother nature isn't after the same goals humans are when it comes to cannabis growth. The same can be said about professional bodybuilding. Bodybuilders undergo grueling lifting and cardio regimens that go far beyond "health and wellness" not to mention the diets which are so far beyond the realms of what normal folk could comprehend. They are hacking their genetics and using known biological sciences to tweak their physiques. Typically these are detrimental to health especially when you start talking about 4-5% bodyfat when they hit the stage or a pro powerlifter squatting over 1k pounds.

Mother nature isn't after the densest, stickiest, heaviest non seeded flowers on the plant that can possibly be grown. It's after a well rounded healthy plant that can bear offspring and start new progeny. Humans and mother nature aren't after the same things therefore humans use hacks that have been shown to better give us the outcome we desire.

Using the same old argument "mother nature knows best" or "why would God give cannabis plants leaves" to say defoliation techniques are wrong just aren't looking at this from the eyes of a person trying to "hack the plant" to produce more or different qualities from cannabis than mother nature intended. Sometimes the cost of stunted growth can easily be offset by increased yields especially if it means the larf will now become prime dense nugs after using a defol technique.
I agree, our goal is a subjective yield. The natural plant process essentially is to compete for light>reproduction although a lot of symbiosis exists.

I don't think people are ''hacking genetics''. We have a limited intelligence and what ever we can do with that intelligence is still within the rules of the game. We are only limited by our latest understanding and that is one of the gifts of being human, or curse, depending on what camp you are in. If a man builds up his body and dies as a result, can you sit there and say he got it wrong?. This is a question of ideology and your own perspective of the meaning of life. To him, he may have died young but HIS goal in life was complete.

When it comes to growing, we want yield, for most growers that is the top priority even over quality for some. Like I said, that is a subjective venture yet OBJECTIVELY some things are proven to work while other things are a grey area at best. Get any heavy defoliator to teach some newb for the first year. I would teach another newb with easy, repeatable techniques, I know for an absolute fact who will be yielding more. To use your weight lifting example as a comparison, heavy defoliation is like a man trying to put on extra muscle by starving himself of protein. We know biologically that you need a certain amount even just to live. It's why being vegan can be very dangerous if they don't know what they are doing. Defoliation is directly interfering with the process that puts on end weight, just like protein is to muscle mass. They may already have a substitute for proteign I don't know.. but what is a growers substitute for leaves?. The only answer to that is ''more leaves''. So it begs the obvious question, why remove them in the first place if they are clearly in a productive position. It's not like they can play dumb and say they had no idea leaves help things grow, cmon.. we all know that by now. They are simply lost in curiosity or ego land and have unlearned themselves of basic facts.

Heavy defoliation ''may'' have x/y/z positive effect but the problem is nobody can prove it nor can they give a guide to repeat it. To any new grower think about that. Why do something that can not be proven or repeated when you have many things you could be doing.. that you currently are not doing.. that are guaranteed to increase yield. Many long term defoliators who give guides will put in a disclaimer ''if you get it wrong yield will suffer''. No advice I can give to a new grower on proven techniques come with such a disclaimer, because they are so easy to follow step by step. They have pit falls to be careful of sure, but I know exactly where that line is so that they never have to get near it. That's a vital difference.

If a persons goal isn't yied, rather it is to play around then fair enough, I would recommend bonsai trees as they are far more fulfilling in that way. But I guess to fall into my own trap that is also subjective.
 
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bk78

Well-Known Member
By the end of a grow these defoliators have grown three times as much leaf as someone who didn't, are they not aware of this fact.
Dude the reason you don’t defoliate is because your flowering plant are 8” fucking tall and you have nothing to defoliate. I take it this is your first grow and by the bullshit you type you read grow weed easy website daily.

Settle down shooter and stop trying to tell people how to grow when you barley do yourself.

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bk78

Well-Known Member
Seedless = Nothing to do with or without keeping leafs
Hardness = genetics
Dense = ample energy and food coming from the leafs
covered with trichomes = ample energy coming from leafs

So yeah just about everything that has to do with the way we like our buds has to do with the leafs.

But prove me wrong, please point to one single study that shows that defoliation increases yields in commercial grows. Just one, that's all we've asked from this camp, one single study. All we ever get is some stoner who says, "yeah dude, look at these plants," but no controlled study or side by side. Sorry guy, you're talking out of your ass.

My next run of cuts (coming in a few weeks) I will leave a couple plants foliage just to test this out myself.


but regardless of what the outcome is armchair growers will always deny
 

p0opstlnksal0t

Well-Known Member
Seedless = Nothing to do with or without keeping leafs
Hardness = genetics
Dense = ample energy and food coming from the leafs
covered with trichomes = ample energy coming from leafs

So yeah just about everything that has to do with the way we like our buds has to do with the leafs.

But prove me wrong, please point to one single study that shows that defoliation increases yields in commercial grows. Just one, that's all we've asked from this camp, one single study. All we ever get is some stoner who says, "yeah dude, look at these plants," but no controlled study or side by side. Sorry guy, you're talking out of your ass.
I will reply to this in better detail later but I am certainly not promoting removing all fan leaves or that schwazzing crap I've seen threealight promote.

You're not going to find "studies" seeing as cannabis is still federally illegal. There are however plenty of side by side grows and logs done on icmag, overgrow, thcf, grasscity etc showing positive (and negatives) of certain types of defoliation and lollipop techniques.
 

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
My next run of cuts (coming in a few weeks) I will leave a couple plants foliage just to test this out myself.


but regardless of what the outcome is armchair growers will always deny
Been growing 20 years and made millions doing it, am I an armchair grower? If you train before flip and have the right plant numbers you shouldn’t have popcorn bud in the end. Even when I leave a little too mich below my canopy in the shade the buds turn out great.
 

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
I will reply to this in better detail later but I am certainly not promoting removing all fan leaves or that schwazzing crap I've seen threealight promote.

You're not going to find "studies" seeing as cannabis is still federally illegal. There are however plenty of side by side grows and logs done on icmag, overgrow, thcf, grasscity etc showing positive (and negatives) of certain types of defoliation and lollipop techniques.
I’ve ready plenty of those logs over the years and not one of them has ever convinced me to defoliate. Put my time into training and tucking.
 
Been growing 20 years and made millions doing it, am I an armchair grower? If you train before flip and have the right plant numbers you shouldn’t have popcorn bud in the end. Even when I leave a little too mich below my canopy in the shade the buds turn out great.
"made millions" I automatically discredit anyone who tries boasting about their supposed boatloads of money. The people who front like they got it, dont usually have it. The ones who do, don't really talk about it.
 

KingQuazy

Well-Known Member
Why scrog when you can do better sog or topping
What? No. SCROG>SOG and topping maybe wins if you add nine months of veg. SCROG is for mass production. SOG is for faster crops, not bigger yields.You may want to look at dispensaries. SOG is an archaic hydroponic method and does not bode as well for soil growers. So your statement is crazy wrong because it isn't even necessarily true if you were saying it to the right crowd(hydro growers ONLY).
 

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DaFreak

Well-Known Member
"made millions" I automatically discredit anyone who tries boasting about their supposed boatloads of money. The people who front like they got it, dont usually have it. The ones who do, don't really talk about it.
From Japan, over 20 years growing at $50 a gram, use your imagination. But I don’t really care, just trying to put things in perspective for the guy who says stuff like armchair grower. Think at minimum people here grow.
 

bk78

Well-Known Member
Been growing 20 years and made millions doing it, am I an armchair grower? If you train before flip and have the right plant numbers you shouldn’t have popcorn bud in the end. Even when I leave a little too mich below my canopy in the shade the buds turn out great.

bahaha
 

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
You laugh, one thing I never understood is why Americans risk their freedom to make so little on illegal operations. The Vietnamese get it, they dominate the market in Japan now. $40k from closet grows.
 

bk78

Well-Known Member
From Japan, over 20 years growing at $50 a gram, use your imagination. But I don’t really care, just trying to put things in perspective for the guy who says stuff like armchair grower. Think at minimum people here grow.
I actually respected you prior to this bullshit hahaha
 

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
I actually respected you prior to this bullshit hahaha
Dude look it up. Should be pretty easy to find out how much weed in Japan costs. Even with a closet grow making a pound and a half a cycle you’ll end up rich. Now I used to have a grow house going for most of those 20 years. Made my money and got out. 10 years is a no nonsense jail is the price over there. My protégés are still making mad money though with three tents.
 

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
  • The most expensive weed in the world is in Tokyo, where a gram sells for approximately $32.66.
This is what I found from a vice homepage. I know my friends are still getting 50 though and that’s what I always got.
 

Apalchen

Well-Known Member
This thread is full of bullshit, how many commercial grows have you been to that don't defoliate. I'm not some newb as you would call it I've been doing this 16 years. I originally grew without defoliation and as long as your plants aren't packed in tight together you get decent yields per plant.

But to max out a space to it's potential defoliation is definitely beneficial.

But seriously go look for pictures of a commercial grow that is not defoliating. They would be way harder to find than gardens that are.

I've done both but to achieve decent numbers without defoliating you have to leave more space between plants, which when trying to max out a space is not beneficial.

If your tent or table whatever your growing on isn't canopy from edge to edge then defoliating isn't gonna be that beneficial and could hurt. But if you fill up the space like you should or even a bit overcrowded and defoliate at the right times you will see better yield per sq ft.
 
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