Go Woke or Go Broke

[mooray]

Complicated by the fact that there are objective differences with issues, as in, hurting people's voting rights is not a peer to refusing to bake a cake because you don't like gays.

 

[hanimmal]

What's frustrating is that there are very legitimate arguments about why "cancel culture" is wrong. There should be a free and open discussion of ideas and yadda yadda, thats not news to anyone. What gets trotted out in practice is some horseshit where people cry that others don't agree with them.

I question how legitimate 'cancel culture' even is though. What people will describe as being what it is, sure I think you are right about the argument being made about what people have said it is as being a problem. I just haven't seen enough things that have not been trolled to the point of nobody really being lined up on what the situation is and why they are upset about it, to think that it is a actual problem.

 

[Rurumo]

I question how legitimate 'cancel culture' even is though. What people will describe as being what it is, sure I think you are right about the argument being made about what people have said it is as being a problem. I just haven't seen enough things that have not been trolled to the point of nobody really being lined up on what the situation is and why they are upset about it, to think that it is a actual problem.

The only people I ever hear talking about "Cancel Culture" is Fox News actors and my Dad who watches Fox News and who seems to think it's a huge problem even though he can't name a single person who was "cancelled." For months Fox used it as an unlimited source of national "news" by just trolling social media and finding a single person using a "cancel" hashtag, then announcing another person was "cancelled." It would be hilarious if it weren't so scary that they can get away with this sort of thing while hiding behind "freedom of speech" and claiming they are a legitimate news organization. Come on folks, half of all Republicans think ANTIFA and or BLM was behind the Capitol Riot despite the HUNDREDS of arrests of long time white trashionalists, these bootlickers will believe ANYTHING.

 

[mooray]

I worry it gets traction and people like Thomas apparently wanting to force private businesses to regulate the accuracy of their user's comments doesn't help, removing rights for the greater good and all you lose is rights, yet for some reason the greater good never comes.

To parallel the other side, however many years ago we lost open carry of long guns in California because these assholes were going around with their AR15 on their back flaunting them in people's faces. It was the same thing, people exercising their rights in a manner that other's didn't like. I didn't like it either, wasn't really a good look for gun owners to force this conflict and alienation, but what was the result? Loss of rights. And what's going to happen here when the gov't doesn't like private businesses exercising their rights? I do know what it won't be; a different result.

 

[hanimmal]

I worry it gets traction and people like Thomas apparently wanting to force private businesses to regulate the accuracy of their user's comments doesn't help, removing rights for the greater good and all you lose is rights, yet for some reason the greater good never comes.

How is it any different than a business getting in trouble if one of their customers is attacked in their business?

The obvious troll will be to say that in real life it is different than it is online. The problem is that there are obvious real life consequences to everything being said and done by actual paid trolls whose goal is to bring harm to our societies with near perfect information about their marks.

To parallel the other side, however many years ago we lost open carry of long guns in California because these assholes were going around with their AR15 on their back flaunting them in people's faces. It was the same thing, people exercising their rights in a manner that other's didn't like. I didn't like it either, wasn't really a good look for gun owners to force this conflict and alienation, but what was the result? Loss of rights. And what's going to happen here when the gov't doesn't like private businesses exercising their rights? I do know what it won't be; a different result.

What rights are the private businesses exercising that the government doesn't like? I got a little lost here.

 

[UncleBuck]

Damn right. He would be telling us "I dream of a future where our children are judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their characters", and damn right he'd be telling us to boycott these racist wokesters. Boycott the nba, the nfl, coca cola, etc. Resist, pirate that media. Go woke and go broke.

Drooling invalid

 

[mooray]

How is it any different than a business getting in trouble if one of their customers is attacked in their business?

The obvious troll will be to say that in real life it is different than it is online. The problem is that there are obvious real life consequences to everything being said and done by actual paid trolls whose goal is to bring harm to our societies with near perfect information about their marks.

You're saying that Facebook being forced to control the speech of those that post on Facebook is a parallel to something like a customer inside Burger King being attacked? The only way BK could be liable would be if it was their employees doing the attacking, in which case I guess the parallel would need to have something to do with Facebook's employees doing something to FB's users.

But, the important difference is that it's a private company, so they should be able to make the choice themselves under 1a protections and of course there are no constitutional protections for assaulting someone. Only arguing from a rights perspective here, btw. If we want to violate rights in order to do something that we feel is more important, that's a discussion to have. What isn't a discussion to have, imo, is a bunch of mental gymnastics to pretend it's not what it is just so we can feel good about it.

Remember when Dubya did exactly that so he could go to war without having to ask for permission to go to war? I'm not down with that logic, but I am down with philosophical consistency, so I don't want to pretend like forcing a private entity to control the legal speech of their users isn't a 1a violation. Maybe we just need to have a new conversation about adding another bit to the list of speech that is exempt from 1a protections.

What rights are the private businesses exercising that the government doesn't like? I got a little lost here.

In Georgia they passed some laws screwing over people's voting access, to which various businesses have taken action in response. For example the all-stars game is being moved out of state, costing the state anywhere from 100m to maybe a billion in revenue. That's the MLB's(private business) right to move their game anywhere they want for any reason they want. However, it's costing the state money and the gov't doesn't like it. McConnell doesn't like it.

 

[hanimmal]

You're saying that Facebook being forced to control the speech of those that post on Facebook is a parallel to something like a customer inside Burger King being attacked? The only way BK could be liable would be if it was their employees doing the attacking, in which case I guess the parallel would need to have something to do with Facebook's employees doing something to FB's users.

Facebook would not be controlling their speech. And there are already restrictions.

I am not a lawyer or anything and am perfectly ok with being wrong about liability, but I thought that if you have a bunch of drunks attack someone in their bar that the company could be sued. Maybe I have seen too many movies.

As for people being attacked, yes. Right now we have a too large of a portion of our citizens that are radicalized against being safe during a pandemic. And these platforms have build entire businesses around what the trolls have been using to spam people with.

In Georgia they passed some laws screwing over people's voting access, to which various businesses have taken action in response. For example the all-stars game is being moved out of state, costing the state anywhere from 100m to maybe a billion in revenue. That's the MLB's(private business) right to move their game anywhere they want for any reason they want. However, it's costing the state money and the gov't doesn't like it. McConnell doesn't like it.

The MLB is still going to be paying the same amount (basically) of Americans.

The Georgia (and other state's) Republican politicians used their legislative ability to disenfranchise voters while using the big lie that Trump fed his cult to try to create a insurrection. Then they doubled down and (at least I am not 100% if they followed through or not) threatened a local business with legislation to hurt them when they dared to criticize them.

The all star game being in mid-July might have just been good business on the MLB's part, who knows what stupid shit they will cook up down there in the next couple months. Better to just avoid that train wreck, which does suck for the citizens of Georgia.

I really appreciate Warnock and Ossoff, and the Biden win, it sucks they also gave us the Q troll Greene though.

And fuck McConnell seriously. He enabled Trump's attempt to stage a coup after he lost the election by not impeaching him when he was illegally withholding aid from a vulnerable ally because they did not help him manufacture political dirt on Biden.

 

[mooray]

Facebook would not be controlling their speech. And there are already restrictions.

I am not a lawyer or anything and am perfectly ok with being wrong about liability, but I thought that if you have a bunch of drunks attack someone in their bar that the company could be sued. Maybe I have seen too many movies.

As for people being attacked, yes. Right now we have a too large of a portion of our citizens that are radicalized against being safe during a pandemic. And these platforms have build entire businesses around what the trolls have been using to spam people with.

I bet there's a circumstance out there where you're right, via repetition, that when you're at a location where something bad is happening frequently, an expectation is created. Like if you had a business that gave some sort of tour and people kept falling because of a dangerous spot, even if those visitors signed a waiver, the knowledge of an issue and a lack of effort to address it can create an onus. Perhaps that's an angle to take with FB after what we've learned.

The MLB is still going to be paying the same amount (basically) of Americans.

The Georgia (and other state's) Republican politicians used their legislative ability to disenfranchise voters while using the big lie that Trump fed his cult to try to create a insurrection. Then they doubled down and (at least I am not 100% if they followed through or not) threatened a local business with legislation to hurt them when they dared to criticize them.

The all star game being in mid-July might have just been good business on the MLB's part, who knows what stupid shit they will cook up down there in the next couple months. Better to just avoid that train wreck, which does suck for the citizens of Georgia.

I really appreciate Warnock and Ossoff, and the Biden win, it sucks they also gave us the Q troll Greene though.

And fuck McConnell seriously. He enabled Trump's attempt to stage a coup after he lost the election by not impeaching him when he was illegally withholding aid from a vulnerable ally because they did not help him manufacture political dirt on Biden.

Absolutely fuck McConnell, however, he is a legislator and he scares me with what he can do in regard to legislation. If cancel culture gets enough attention *without discussing rights*, then we may see an erosion of people's 1a rights, as we've already seen through the open carry example with 2a rights, albeit in a "shoe is on the other foot" kind of way.

 

[hanimmal]

I bet there's a circumstance out there where you're right, via repetition, that when you're at a location where something bad is happening frequently, an expectation is created. Like if you had a business that gave some sort of tour and people kept falling because of a dangerous spot, even if those visitors signed a waiver, the knowledge of an issue and a lack of effort to address it can create an onus. Perhaps that's an angle to take with FB after what we've learned.

That is defiantly along the lines I was thinking.

Absolutely fuck McConnell, however, he is a legislator and he scares me with what he can do in regard to legislation. If cancel culture gets enough attention *without discussing rights*, then we may seen an erosion of people's 1a rights, as we've already seen through the open carry example with 2a rights, albeit in a "shoe is on the other foot" kind of way.

Kind of like making up a lie and causing a riot, then using that negativity to pass a voter suppression bill.

I really haven't seen a actual example that I would consider 'cancel culture' as I think it is defined. Not ones that are not done by the people in power anyways (like blackballing a guy who protested by taking a knee before playing football (which turned out to be more Russian propaganda fuckery)).

 

[schuylaar]

You wonder where this goes. Cancel culture is just people exercising their rights and we should all be allowed to do it, but it seems like we're heading to a point where you'll have to agree to a checklist of political topics before you're allowed to enter a store. Kinda funny to think about. It all started with that baker, shoulda just made the cake.

yeah and he just refused to do it again like last month- he's a Colorado baker figures these fvckers are crazy out here.

 

[mooray]

That is defiantly along the lines I was thinking.

Kind of like making up a lie and causing a riot, then using that negativity to pass a voter suppression bill.

I really haven't seen a actual example that I would consider 'cancel culture' as I think it is defined. Not ones that are not done by the people in power anyways (like blackballing a guy who protested by taking a knee before playing football (which turned out to be more Russian propaganda fuckery)).

I know what it is as an observer, but I'd love to hear their description of cancel culture. Ultimately, people on the right have zero understanding of other people's rights. All they know is their own rights, then they think it's everyone else's job to protect those rights, which couldn't be further from the truth. So, someone gets fired for posting racist stuff on Facebook on their own time and they think it's their employer's duty to protect their right to free speech. Nope, that ain't how it works ya dumbfucks. The whole concept is a logical fallacy.

yeah and he just refused to do it again like last month- he's a Colorado baker figures these fvckers are crazy out here.

Colorado is kind of an odd state. There's a significant hippie presence, but then also a significant percentage of coal rolling assholes. I'm surprised there isn't a lot of Portland'esque street fighting.

 

[smokinrav]

I worry it gets traction and people like Thomas apparently wanting to force private businesses to regulate the accuracy of their user's comments doesn't help, removing rights for the greater good and all you lose is rights, yet for some reason the greater good never comes.

To parallel the other side, however many years ago we lost open carry of long guns in California because these assholes were going around with their AR15 on their back flaunting them in people's faces. It was the same thing, people exercising their rights in a manner that other's didn't like. I didn't like it either, wasn't really a good look for gun owners to force this conflict and alienation, but what was the result? Loss of rights. And what's going to happen here when the gov't doesn't like private businesses exercising their rights? I do know what it won't be; a different result.

Why the fuck does one need to open carry anything besides intimidating people?

 

[mooray]

"Need" doesn't really work as a position to argue. Why does anyone "need" to flip off the police, doesn't matter and I'm happy that courts have upheld the right to do so. When it comes to rights, we have to support many things we don't like in order to have the rights we do like, or else you get what we have today, which is a bunch of philosophically inconsistent and selfish assholes selectively choosing random things they like and trying to outlaw the things they don't. Give and take, yin-yang and all that.

 

[rkymtnman]

well, as expected, Fred Ridley from the Masters, chose to take both sides on the GA matter.

"No one should be disadvantaged in exercising that right [to vote], and it is critical that all citizens have confidence in the electoral process."

not surprising.

 

[HGCC]

There's a good saying about masters and what one should do with them.

I question how legitimate 'cancel culture' even is though. What people will describe as being what it is, sure I think you are right about the argument being made about what people have said it is as being a problem. I just haven't seen enough things that have not been trolled to the point of nobody really being lined up on what the situation is and why they are upset about it, to think that it is a actual problem.

Yeah, I'm over in sort of theoretical land in trying to say it's bad. In theory, it's censorship and oppression. In practice it isn't a thing, and what gets held up as examples are clearly not and just culture warrior stuffs. I can't think of any real world examples.

I love the gay cake baker case, it's my goto in many arguments with the conservative crowd.

 

[mooray]

Neither does a rifle harnessed around your back.

I know, "but it could" in which case, those middle fingers could wander their way to a firearm just the same.

And around we go. We both know all the arguments for gun stuff, not gonna be bringing up anything new.

 

[srh88]

Why the fuck does one need to open carry anything besides intimidating people?

So if you're afraid and in a bad area the people who you're afraid of know who to beat for a free gun

 

[schuylaar]

It's when people on the right are mad at people on the left for exercising their rights. The only answer of course is, tough shit. However, if taken to extremes by both sides, it could have some interesting impacts, all of which there's really nothing to be done about.

and the left traditionallly shakes in their boots over what the evil repubs won't do..take heart a new horizon is upon us.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/07/gop-cant-be-saved-center-right-voters-need-become-biden-republicans/