Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

Should the USA along with NATO defend Ukraine with troops.

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 40.4%
  • No

    Votes: 59 59.6%

  • Total voters
    99

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I wonder about unintended consequences. The Chinese act for their not-always-transparent reasons.
Just something I thought of that might solve the problem, Canada's PM got a peace prize for the Suez crises in the 50's. That shiny bobble might appeal to Xi cause his ego is as big as the sky! There are a lot of smart people at state, I'm sure some one thought it up and spit balled it days ago.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
By all definitions, yes. Btw the major US reason for the invasion, weapons of mass destruction (lol) makes it as illegitimate as Russians invasion on Ukraine. Even worse, as they found none, while there are plenty of AZOV scum roaming around in Ukraine. But I don't expect you, indoctrinated Yankees, to get the picture :D

View attachment 5097656
So, because a country has bandits, those pissed at Vlad and terrorists, it justifies invading them and destroying cities full of women and children? They do have a Jewish president, hard to call them Nazis...
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
By all definitions, yes. Btw the major US reason for the invasion, weapons of mass destruction (lol) makes it as illegitimate as Russians invasion on Ukraine. Even worse, as they found none, while there are plenty of AZOV scum roaming around in Ukraine. But I don't expect you, indoctrinated Yankees, to get the picture :D

View attachment 5097656
A free country contains many points of view, some stupid, some cruel and callous, even America has lot's of Nazis, Europe too, as does my country Canada.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I'm talking about equal illegitimacy here, nothing more. I'm not supporting Vlad whatsoever
Ukraine is a liberal democracy or headed there with a guy like Zelenskiy and other liberal democracies are gonna back him to the hilt now that they are convinced he can win. I understand your predicament and I would not want to be in it myself.
 

djumbir

Well-Known Member
Ukraine is a highly divided country and has been a buffer zone quasi independent country since its beginning. Either a Russian puppet state (prior to orange revolution, which was very much supported and helped by west, don't wanna say orchestrated) and like Belarus now, or a liberal "democracy". Putin's puppets have lost in 2 consecutive elections over there, and that's a problem for him. So far, he was able to control more or less the countries in his neighborhood, but Russia's soft power obviously cannot match the US one. It never could. Belarus is also getting shaky (there were protest there last year against Luka), then a revolution in Kyrgyzstan last year and now an attempt in Kazakhstan...
So, Russia can either accept being slowly eaten by "soft power" (which consists of diplomacy, economy and intelligence sector) or start using "hard power" which is the only parameter that puts Russia into super power company. They don't have anything else going for them.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I'm talking about equal illegitimacy here, nothing more. I'm not supporting Vlad whatsoever
'equal' lol.
Screen Shot 2022-03-07 at 5.53.40 PM.png
Ukraine is a highly divided country and has been a buffer zone quasi independent country since its beginning. Either a Russian puppet state (prior to orange revolution, which was very much supported and helped by west, don't wanna say orchestrated) and like Belarus now, or a liberal "democracy". Putin's puppets have lost in 2 consecutive elections over there, and that's a problem for him. So far, he was able to control more or less the countries in his neighborhood, but Russia's soft power obviously cannot match the US one. It never could. Belarus is also getting shaky (there were protest there last year against Luka), then a revolution in Kyrgyzstan last year and now an attempt in Kazakhstan...
Supported, as in 'hey we support the people's decision to oust their Russian overlords if they want'? Then sure.

So, Russia can either accept being slowly eaten by "soft power" (which consists of diplomacy, economy and intelligence sector) or start using "hard power" which is the only parameter that puts Russia into super power company. They don't have anything else going for them.
Or, Russia could step up and start being a better nation for their people and win their support by not cheating their people of valid choices while brainwashing them with propaganda.
 

djumbir

Well-Known Member
'equal' lol.
View attachment 5097682

Supported, as in 'hey we support the people's decision to oust their Russian overlords if they want'? Then sure.



Or, Russia could step up and start being a better nation for their people and win their support by not cheating their people of valid choices while brainwashing them with propaganda.
No. By funding it, they organized the whole thing.

 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
By all definitions, yes. Btw the major US reason for the invasion, weapons of mass destruction (lol) makes it as illegitimate as Russians invasion on Ukraine. Even worse, as they found none, while there are plenty of AZOV scum roaming around in Ukraine. But I don't expect you, indoctrinated Yankees, to get the picture :D

View attachment 5097656
there's only 1 proper way to deal with fascists - total non-cooperation. Here in Germany we criminalized all right-winged parties ('the Republicans' & 'Nationalistic Party of Deutschland'), they are not allowed to demonstrate or gather (with more than 2 individuals in public), their (NS) symbols are forbidden, they also cannot hold private conglomerations like parties or concerts, print leaflets, or any type of art, like music etc
But most important, they are shunned out from any type of state service - a soldier/ officer/police etc having ties to the far right will be fired without compensation immediately.
It's simply a matter of the state that cannot empower, associate or affiliate with, such kind of people.

The end doesn't justify the means
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
funding what exactly?
lol apparently democracy? Well maybe not democracy, branding seems more like what it is describing.

Notice in the troll's link the subtle nod to 'Soros'. It really is a good look at how Russia decided to set up their attack on our democracy by buying up all the things they cried about when politicians in the nation's they wanted to keep under their heel started to crawl out of it's shadow and winning office.
US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev
Ian Traynor

With their websites and stickers, their pranks and slogans aimed at banishing widespread fear of a corrupt regime, the democracy guerrillas of the Ukrainian Pora youth movement have already notched up a famous victory - whatever the outcome of the dangerous stand-off in Kiev.

Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.

Ten months after the success in Belgrade, the US ambassador in Minsk, Michael Kozak, a veteran of similar operations in central America, notably in Nicaragua, organised a near identical campaign to try to defeat the Belarus hardman, Alexander Lukashenko.

That one failed. "There will be no Kostunica in Belarus," the Belarus president declared, referring to the victory in Belgrade.

But experience gained in Serbia, Georgia and Belarus has been invaluable in plotting to beat the regime of Leonid Kuchma in Kiev.

The operation - engineering democracy through the ballot box and civil disobedience - is now so slick that the methods have matured into a template for winning other people's elections.

In the centre of Belgrade, there is a dingy office staffed by computer-literate youngsters who call themselves the Centre for Non-violent Resistance. If you want to know how to beat a regime that controls the mass media, the judges, the courts, the security apparatus and the voting stations, the young Belgrade activists are for hire.

They emerged from the anti-Milosevic student movement, Otpor, meaning resistance. The catchy, single-word branding is important. In Georgia last year, the parallel student movement was Khmara. In Belarus, it was Zubr. In Ukraine, it is Pora, meaning high time. Otpor also had a potent, simple slogan that appeared everywhere in Serbia in 2000 - the two words "gotov je", meaning "he's finished", a reference to Milosevic. A logo of a black-and-white clenched fist completed the masterful marketing.

In Ukraine, the equivalent is a ticking clock, also signalling that the Kuchma regime's days are numbered.

Stickers, spray paint and websites are the young activists' weapons. Irony and street comedy mocking the regime have been hugely successful in puncturing public fear and enraging the powerful.

Last year, before becoming president in Georgia, the US-educated Mr Saakashvili travelled from Tbilisi to Belgrade to be coached in the techniques of mass defiance. In Belarus, the US embassy organised the dispatch of young opposition leaders to the Baltic, where they met up with Serbs travelling from Belgrade. In Serbia's case, given the hostile environment in Belgrade, the Americans organised the overthrow from neighbouring Hungary - Budapest and Szeged.

In recent weeks, several Serbs travelled to the Ukraine. Indeed, one of the leaders from Belgrade, Aleksandar Maric, was turned away at the border.

The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.

US pollsters and professional consultants are hired to organise focus groups and use psephological data to plot strategy.

The usually fractious oppositions have to be united behind a single candidate if there is to be any chance of unseating the regime. That leader is selected on pragmatic and objective grounds, even if he or she is anti-American.

In Serbia, US pollsters Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates discovered that the assassinated pro-western opposition leader, Zoran Djindjic, was reviled at home and had no chance of beating Milosevic fairly in an election. He was persuaded to take a back seat to the anti-western Vojislav Kostunica, who is now Serbian prime minister.

In Belarus, US officials ordered opposition parties to unite behind the dour, elderly trade unionist, Vladimir Goncharik, because he appealed to much of the Lukashenko constituency.

Officially, the US government spent $41m (£21.7m) organising and funding the year-long operation to get rid of Milosevic from October 1999. In Ukraine, the figure is said to be around $14m.

Apart from the student movement and the united opposition, the other key element in the democracy template is what is known as the "parallel vote tabulation", a counter to the election-rigging tricks beloved of disreputable regimes.

There are professional outside election monitors from bodies such as the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, but the Ukrainian poll, like its predecessors, also featured thousands of local election monitors trained and paid by western groups.

Freedom House and the Democratic party's NDI helped fund and organise the "largest civil regional election monitoring effort" in Ukraine, involving more than 1,000 trained observers. They also organised exit polls. On Sunday night those polls gave Mr Yushchenko an 11-point lead and set the agenda for much of what has followed.

The exit polls are seen as critical because they seize the initiative in the propaganda battle with the regime, invariably appearing first, receiving wide media coverage and putting the onus on the authorities to respond.

The final stage in the US template concerns how to react when the incumbent tries to steal a lost election.

In Belarus, President Lukashenko won, so the response was minimal. In Belgrade, Tbilisi, and now Kiev, where the authorities initially tried to cling to power, the advice was to stay cool but determined and to organise mass displays of civil disobedience, which must remain peaceful but risk provoking the regime into violent suppression.

If the events in Kiev vindicate the US in its strategies for helping other people win elections and take power from anti-democratic regimes, it is certain to try to repeat the exercise elsewhere in the post-Soviet world.

The places to watch are Moldova and the authoritarian countries of central Asia.
 

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
lol apparently democracy? Well maybe not democracy, branding seems more like what it is describing.

Notice in the troll's link the subtle nod to 'Soros'. It really is a good look at how Russia decided to set up their attack on our democracy by buying up all the things they cried about when politicians in the nation's they wanted to keep under their heel started to crawl out of it's shadow and winning office.
ok that sheds a little light into things, and yeah i saw the "S" when i hit the link.....kinda made me go WTF for a moment
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Here is an idea that might be considered by the state department. A UN force of Chinese troops (peace keepers) would guarantee humanitarian corridors in Ukraine. This might appeal to China, they're always looking for good PR, would put the heat on Vlad, show case their military and there would be Chinese troops in a western country for a change! Why Xi could even get a Nobel peace prize out of the deal! :lol:
i don't actually think that's a bad idea...it would give China good pr, and putin couldn't get up to any bullshit without seriously fucking himself with just about the friends he has left on the entire planet, except murderous saudi princes
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
By all definitions, yes. Btw the major US reason for the invasion, weapons of mass destruction (lol) makes it as illegitimate as Russians invasion on Ukraine. Even worse, as they found none, while there are plenty of AZOV scum roaming around in Ukraine. But I don't expect you, indoctrinated Yankees, to get the picture :D

View attachment 5097656
What exactly is your definition of “legitimate”? And jsyk I’m not a “Yankee”. Seems you have preconceived issues with people that question you and they must all be Americans ….sad.
 
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