War

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Maybe did not make my point clearly. The lower Earth orbits require the occasional top-up of speed due to the drag of trace atmosphere. The higher orbits are stable as there is little drag. But to change from one orbit to another requires energy to be used. One can not just 'drop' an object out of orbit, it has to get pushed out. A mile per second is 3600 miles per hour. The energy to move a ton of mass by 3600 miles an hour is not 'dropping' it out of orbit.



Was late in the evening self medication time. I am getting a little disappointed as my vaporizer does not give me the effect of smoking the material, sort of stone-lite. But if I smoke or vape enough to have fun I end up with a weed hangover the next day. I don't know if it is the strains I am smoking or if it is my medication altering my response to the weed. Next run I might try a mixed bag of strains and then try them to find out if it is me or them.
I see what you’re saying. “Drop” sounds passive, ballistic.
Imagine a half-ton solid rocket fitted to the projectile. With modern propellants, you have a delta v of 1600+ meters per second. You need less than two hundred of those for a positive entry interface after half an orbit. The remainder is available for some cross-range (plane-change maneuvers are expensive) or a faster, more forced entry. Fins can then provide terminal guidance.

I don’t know if optical guidance is an option, since the sensor would face forward into plasma. The plasma probably moots teleoperation except early and maybe late. The inertial package would have to be quite good.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I see what you’re saying. “Drop” sounds passive, ballistic.
Imagine a half-ton solid rocket fitted to the projectile. With modern propellants, you have a delta v of 1600+ meters per second. You need less than two hundred of those for a positive entry interface after half an orbit. The remainder is available for some cross-range (plane-change maneuvers are expensive) or a faster, more forced entry. Fins can then provide terminal guidance.

I don’t know if optical guidance is an option, since the sensor would face forward into plasma. The plasma probably moots teleoperation except early and maybe late. The inertial package would have to be quite good.
It bugs me at times when I watch movies and the engineering or science is wrong, or just the wording. The drop bugged me as I am sure many Facebook users will think they will just let go of the rod and it will immediately drop to to earth. I wonder if you could just take a B52 with a 70,000 lb payload and drop it from its maximum flight ceiling of 50,000?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It bugs me at times when I watch movies and the engineering or science is wrong, or just the wording. The drop bugged me as I am sure many Facebook users will think they will just let go of the rod and it will immediately drop to to earth. I wonder if you could just take a B52 with a 70,000 lb payload and drop it from its maximum flight ceiling of 50,000?
I’m with you on good v. bad bullshit on sci-fi or even action flicks.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
It bugs me at times when I watch movies and the engineering or science is wrong, or just the wording. The drop bugged me as I am sure many Facebook users will think they will just let go of the rod and it will immediately drop to to earth. I wonder if you could just take a B52 with a 70,000 lb payload and drop it from its maximum flight ceiling of 50,000?
I like real sci-fi, but startrek space soap opera is fine, so is long long ago in a galaxy far far away for thrills and entertainment. I used to like Arthur C Clarke and others who tried to look ahead. However looking ahead is more difficult and weirder these days and future possibilities explode in one realm and are constrained in another, as science moves on. Looking ahead 50 years is though these days, considering what the last 50 years have wrought, because the pace of change and discovery is increasing at an accelerating rate too.

Science is a global enterprise these days with thousands of researchers in each sub discipline collaborating and communicating online. China and South Asia along with much of the middle east are modern societies these days, at least the urban areas are, the populations are educated and conditions steadily improving. Even much of Africa is developed with modern cities and high rise buildings. Just Russia and North Korea are out in the fold it would seem, Iran will soon be back in and so will Venezuela cause they want the oil.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I like real sci-fi, but startrek space soap opera is fine, so is long long ago in a galaxy far far away for thrills and entertainment. I used to like Arthur C Clarke and others who tried to look ahead. However looking ahead is more difficult and weirder these days and future possibilities explode in one realm and are constrained in another, as science moves on. Looking ahead 50 years is though these days, considering what the last 50 years have wrought, because the pace of change and discovery is increasing at an accelerating rate too.

Science is a global enterprise these days with thousands of researchers in each sub discipline collaborating and communicating online. China and South Asia along with much of the middle east are modern societies these days, at least the urban areas are, the populations are educated and conditions steadily improving. Even much of Africa is developed with modern cities and high rise buildings. Just Russia and North Korea are out in the fold it would seem, Iran will soon be back in and so will Venezuela cause they want the oil.
I’m done with Star Wars. Their ships keep getting stupider.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I’m with you on good v. bad bullshit on sci-fi or even action flicks.
I just threw in some numbers using a B52 payload limit and ceiling height. I should figure out the air density up there and the rest but this will be good enough for getting a feel of things. With 30,000kg, a cross sectional area of 1.5m (I could figure out what it could be given the metal density, don't feel like it) a drag coefficient of 0.3, we are talking about Mach 2.7. With a 1 meter cross sectional area Mach 3.3. So that is a starting point for you destructive types.

I don't mind putting aside physics if the movie or book calls for it. Watching Blind Spot on Netflix right now and the woman has tattoos as riddles on her body warning of future events. How did they know what will happen in the future? Why is no one trying to figure out how they knew the when and where? No big deal, just entertainment.

I’m done with Star Wars. Their ships keep getting stupider.
I probably have not seen a Star Wars movie in the last few decades.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Russia says ammunition blast badly damages major ship in Black Sea fleet - Interfax
The flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet, the Moskva missile cruiser, was badly damaged when ammunition on board blew up, Interfax news agency quoted the defence ministry as saying on Thursday.

Interfax said the crew had been evacuated. It blamed the blast on a fire and said the cause was being investigated.

A Ukrainian official earlier said the Moskva had been hit by two missiles but did not give any evidence.


The Russian Cruiser ‘Moskva’ Dominates The Black Sea
The Russian navy cruiser Moskva by far is the most powerful warship in the Black Sea. If Russian President Vladimir Putin orders his troops to widen their war in Ukraine, Moskva, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, undoubtedly would lead the naval assault.

Think of Moskva as a 12,500-ton, 612-foot mobile missile battery with nearly 500 people aboard. She packs enough anti-ship missiles to wipe out the entire Ukrainian navy and enough air-defense missiles to swat away any conceivable aerial attack on the Black Sea Fleet’s amphibious flotilla.

Moskva’s value to a Ukraine operation could make her a top target of Ukraine’s missileers. Assuming the Ukrainians can preserve their anti-ship missiles through Russian bombardment and pinpoint Moskva’s location using radars or drones, they might get to take a few shots at the cruiser.


Article from January. I guess we have a little more to go on today. An expensive war exercise, don't you think?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I just threw in some numbers using a B52 payload limit and ceiling height. I should figure out the air density up there and the rest but this will be good enough for getting a feel of things. With 30,000kg, a cross sectional area of 1.5m (I could figure out what it could be given the metal density, don't feel like it) a drag coefficient of 0.3, we are talking about Mach 2.7. With a 1 meter cross sectional area Mach 3.3. So that is a starting point for you destructive types.

I don't mind putting aside physics if the movie or book calls for it. Watching Blind Spot on Netflix right now and the woman has tattoos as riddles on her body warning of future events. How did they know what will happen in the future? Why is no one trying to figure out how they knew the when and where? No big deal, just entertainment.



I probably have not seen a Star Wars movie in the last few decades.
Mach 3.3 is not enough for a kinetic kill. Not without added energetic material. A dense dart howling on at Mach 20+ will make a crater and a fireball with no added explosive.
While the kinetic energy of your bomber-carried large shape compares with a suborbital dart, it is a softer delivery.

You’re describing something like the Massive Ordnance Penetrator. Impressive specs.

 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Russia says ammunition blast badly damages major ship in Black Sea fleet - Interfax
The flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet, the Moskva missile cruiser, was badly damaged when ammunition on board blew up, Interfax news agency quoted the defence ministry as saying on Thursday.

Interfax said the crew had been evacuated. It blamed the blast on a fire and said the cause was being investigated.

A Ukrainian official earlier said the Moskva had been hit by two missiles but did not give any evidence.

The 12,500 tonne ship has a crew of around 500. Russian news agencies said the Moskva was armed with 16 anti-ship "Vulkan" cruise missiles, which have a range of at least 700 km (440 miles).

"As the result of a fire on the Moskva missile cruiser, ammunition detonated. The ship was seriously damaged," the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement. "The crew was completely evacuated."

Interfax did not give more details.

Maksym Marchenko, governor of the region around the Black Sea port of Odesa, earlier said in an online post that two anti-ship missiles had hit the cruiser, but did not provide evidence.

Last month Ukraine said it had destroyed a large Russian landing support ship, the Orsk, on the smaller Sea of Azov to the northeast of the Black Sea. Moscow has not commented on what had happened to the ship.

The Russian Cruiser ‘Moskva’ Dominates The Black Sea
The Russian navy cruiser Moskva by far is the most powerful warship in the Black Sea. If Russian President Vladimir Putin orders his troops to widen their war in Ukraine, Moskva, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, undoubtedly would lead the naval assault.

Think of Moskva as a 12,500-ton, 612-foot mobile missile battery with nearly 500 people aboard. She packs enough anti-ship missiles to wipe out the entire Ukrainian navy and enough air-defense missiles to swat away any conceivable aerial attack on the Black Sea Fleet’s amphibious flotilla.

Moskva’s value to a Ukraine operation could make her a top target of Ukraine’s missileers. Assuming the Ukrainians can preserve their anti-ship missiles through Russian bombardment and pinpoint Moskva’s location using radars or drones, they might get to take a few shots at the cruiser.

She packs 16 fixed launchers for P-1000 anti-ship missiles with a range of 300 miles, vertical tubes for 64 S-300 air-defense missiles with a range of 56 miles, rail launchers for 40 Osa missiles for aerial self-defense plus a bevy of guns—twin 130-millimeter guns that can hit targets 15 miles away plus self-defense guns. Torpedo tubes and a helicopter round out her capabilities.

The cruiser’s sensors make her self-sufficient as a missile battery. The ship’s Top Pair and Top Steer radars can peer out to 200 miles or farther. Moskva led the Russian navy’s seaborne assault on the Republic of Georgia back in 2008, protecting three amphibious ships that landed a battalion or two of naval infantry.

During the Russian invasion of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula in 2014, the cruiser held station off Donuzlav Bay, bottling up the Ukrainian warships there. In 2015 she deployed to the Syrian coast in order to protect Russian troops from possible air and sea attacks.

Aging and reportedly vulnerable to fire, Moskva in 2016 sailed back to Sevastopol in Crimea for a three-year overhaul. She emerged with P-1000 anti-ship missiles in place of her older P-500s. The overhaul extends her service life by a decade or so.

Moskva’s sensors and weapons have kept her relevant, even as the Russian navy in recent decades mostly has abandoned Soviet doctrine. Today the Russian navy combines oceangoing submarines with a modest surface force that steadily is replacing big, high-endurance ships with small, short-endurance ones. Those small ships—frigates and corvettes—retain a long-range strike capability in the form of Kalibr cruise missiles.

Moskva is not a Kalibr-carrier. But she can protect the Kalibr-carriers—and other ships—as she sweeps the surrounding sea and air of enemy ships and planes. Aside from Moskva, the Black Sea Fleet operates 10 frigates and corvettes, six diesel-electric submarines and 10 or 11 amphibious ships and boats.

In the likeliest Ukraine scenarios, the corvettes and submarines will lob Kalibrs at targets on land while the amphibs, sailing inside the protective umbrella of Moskva’s missiles, land a couple battalions as part of a possible wider effort to seize Ukrainian ports such as Odessa.

The Ukrainian fleet is powerless to resist. It has no submarines. And its sole major surface combatant, the frigate Hetman Sahaydachniy, lacks major weaponry. The Ukrainian air force retreated from separatist-controlled Donbas in 2015 and since then hasn’t played any major role in Ukraine’s defense.

The only Ukrainian forces that might have any realistic shot at Moskva are the new Neptune anti-ship missile batteries. The stealthy, radar-guided Neptune can strike ships as far away as 175 miles. Kiev has bought Turkish-made TB-2 drones and American-made radars that can spot targets for the Neptunes.

It’s not clear how many Neptunes it might take to punch through Moskva’s defenses. Nor is it clear how many Neptunes the Ukrainians possess.

In any event, Moskva is a big ship and has proved she can take a missile. The Georgian navy reportedly managed to score one hit on the cruiser back in 2008. She spent a year in drydock and was back at sea by 2010.

Article from January. I guess we have a little more to go on today. An expensive war exercise, don't you think?
Crew evacuated? Softish target.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Mach 3.3 is not enough for a kinetic kill. Not without added energetic material. A dense dart howling on at Mach 20+ will make a crater and a fireball with no added explosive.
While the kinetic energy of your bomber-carried large shape compares with a suborbital dart, it is a softer delivery.

You’re describing something like the Massive Ordnance Penetrator. Impressive specs.

No idea if the calculators are correct as at Mack speeds more comes into it to keep the drag down. Just thinking of a simpler way of dropping a rod on a city. I am sure I can do better given a week.

Crew evacuated? Softish target.
According to the Russians. Wonder if we will see any Russian selfies?
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Ammunition detonated on the Moskva missile cruiser as a result of a fire
The ammunition detonated as a result of a fire on the Moskva missile cruiser, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

The crew was completely evacuated. The reasons for the incident are being established.

Guards missile cruiser of project 1164 "Moskva" is the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet. Built at a shipyard in Nikolaev and commissioned in 1982. It was originally called "Glory".
https://ria-ru.translate.goog/20220414/kreyser-1783435471.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Russia's membership in the Nuclear Energy Agency to be suspended
The membership of the Russian Federation in the Nuclear Energy Agency of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development was suspended after the decision of the OECD leadership, it will enter into force on May 11.

" Russia 's membership in the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency was suspended on April 11 following a decision by the governing body of the OECD. The Russian Federation has been informed accordingly, and the suspension will take effect on May 11," the agency's website said in a release.

It is noted that Russia became a member of the agency in 2013.

Since I was there.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I only see that on social media. I’ll wait for AP or Reuters to weigh in.
From the BBC, we will soon see, if a ship is abandoned it usually means it's in danger of sinking and that thing had a lot of ordinance aboard, it was a floating arsenal, it is very likely secondary explosions did serious damage. Reports are it was struck by two missiles with 150Kg warheads.

Damaged Russian ship

  • Russia's defence ministry said that an explosion aboard Moskva, the flagship of the country's Black Sea Fleet, "seriously damaged" the vessel
  • Russia did not say the cause of the fire, but earlier Ukraine said it was struck by their own Neptune missiles
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member



The Russian Navy’s Black Sea flagship has suffered major damage and the crew has abandoned the ship, state media said late Tuesday in reports following Ukrainian claims of hitting the ship with a missile strike.

The Russian Defense Ministry confirmed the mishap on RTS Moskva (121), a ship in the country’s Black Sea Fleet, according to state-run outlet TASS.

The crew of the Moskva the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet was severely damaged and the crew abandoned ship, the Russian Defense Ministry told TASS.

A fire broke out on the ship, causing ammunition to detonate, according to TASS. State media did not elaborate on the cause of the fire.

Ukrainian officials claimed that shore-based anti-ship guided missiles hit Moskva which had been operating from the Black Sea Fleet’s headquarters in Sevastopol, Crimea.

“It has been confirmed that the missile cruiser Moskva today went exactly where it was sent by our border guards on Snake Island!” Odesa governor Maksym Marchenko said in a Telegram message on Tuesday.
“Neptune missiles guarding the Black Sea caused very serious damage to the Russian ship.”
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member

View attachment 5118056

The Russian Navy’s Black Sea flagship has suffered major damage and the crew has abandoned the ship, state media said late Tuesday in reports following Ukrainian claims of hitting the ship with a missile strike.

The Russian Defense Ministry confirmed the mishap on RTS Moskva (121), a ship in the country’s Black Sea Fleet, according to state-run outlet TASS.

The crew of the Moskva the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet was severely damaged and the crew abandoned ship, the Russian Defense Ministry told TASS.

A fire broke out on the ship, causing ammunition to detonate, according to TASS. State media did not elaborate on the cause of the fire.

Ukrainian officials claimed that shore-based anti-ship guided missiles hit Moskva which had been operating from the Black Sea Fleet’s headquarters in Sevastopol, Crimea.

“It has been confirmed that the missile cruiser Moskva today went exactly where it was sent by our border guards on Snake Island!” Odesa governor Maksym Marchenko said in a Telegram message on Tuesday.
“Neptune missiles guarding the Black Sea caused very serious damage to the Russian ship.”
i'd like to see some independent confirmation that the Ukrainians hit it with missiles, but one way or another, it looks like it's out of at least this war, if not totalled
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
i'd like to see some independent confirmation that the Ukrainians hit it with missiles, but one way or another, it looks like it's out of at least this war, if not totalled
She might float on fire for a day or two with ammo cooking off and that makes it too dangerous to stay aboard, it's a floating bomb that's on fire. We will soon find out, she is apparently abandoned and drifting, the Russians could finish her off themselves, we will most likely see pictures, I'm sure someone or several are monitoring it. It was a big loss for Russia and will keep them out of the western Black sea and away from Odesa.
 
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