War

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
There have been multiple reports of this on Twitter, but the Russian trolls and bots are very active on there now. The MAGATS and Russians are reading from the same script and posting too.

If Belarus is really planning to attack, then their military leaders are morons, and it would be a blunder that would exceed Putin by invading Ukraine in the first place. They will have mutinies in the army, coup attempts and revolution, the Belarussian fighters in Ukraine will be going home and Poland will go nuts as will the Baltic states. The Belarussian army wouldn't make it 20 km inside Ukraine before being destroyed by their territorials alone, not to mention the reseve force of regular army. They gave away much of their equipment to Russia for the war in Ukraine, all their wartime stocks were sent as was their reserve tanks. I saw videos of them reading the name plates on the destroyed tanks months ago and if they are buying out of date ammo from N Korea, they've already cleaned Belarus out.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
This is what I posted about earlier about the bridge, a water drone? Russia supposedly towed it out to sea and blew it up.


View attachment 5210312
Looks like a reconnaissance drone boat about the size of a kayak, looks like it operates on the surface and does not look designed for semi submerged or underwater operation. It probably would have a self-destruct or sinking option though and should be "self-disposing".
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
oh how far Chomsky has fallen. Or shall I say, how far Chomsky has moved toward right wing authoritarianism.

I posted a video earlier that gave all of Chomsky's views on this matter. Here is a rebuttal.

Harsh Critique of Chomsky on Ukraine


Though Chomsky denounced the Russian invasion of Ukraine, calling it a crime of aggression, it wouldn’t be far wrong to say Chomsky placed all of the blame for Russia’s attack on the U.S. government. The U.S., he said, crossed obvious “red lines” when it was clear that Russia would react violently.

The title of the event should have been “Chomsky Calls for Realpolitik for the 21st century.” ... Realists want nations to respect great powers’ “spheres of influence,” “national interests,” the balance of power, etc. and rail against human rights, democracy, equality or other moral considerations as a major concern for foreign policy.

Now, what has any of that have to do with us on the Left? Where are the matters dear to us like democracy, equality, class and national self-determination? In fact, not a single leftist was mentioned by Chomsky in his hour-long interview.

Chomsky detailed the assurances made to Gorbachev and others that if the Soviet Union (in 1990) allowed Germany to reunite and join NATO then NATO would not advance “one inch” further eastward. These verbal promises were made though there was nothing as solid as a treaty defining this. On the other hand Chomsky did not mention the written and signed 1994 Budapest Memorandum which guaranteed in writing that Russia and the US and Britain would respect Ukraine’s then existing 40-year-old borders. When Fletcher brings it up (19:21) and the general question of security, Chomsky ducks the question and starts talking about neutrality which he says has worked well for Mexico, Austria and Finland.

Fletcher brings up the Budapest Memorandum again (21:30) and asks how Ukrainians could expect Russia to abide by a treaty since in 2014 Russia violated the Memorandum, seized Crimea, and supported the Donbas separatists.

Chomsky answers, “Certainly Ukraine could not assume that Russia would abide by treaty” and then goes off on the fact that the U.S. doesn’t abide by treaties and gives example after example. Then he seemingly goes back to Fletcher’s question and says the issue is “Are the circumstances such that the great powers will live up to their commitments?” and then he goes on a riff of what would the situation have been now if the U.S. had listened to the warnings of statesman like Kennan. Other than saying something vague about “circumstances,” he doesn’t explain how Ukraine was supposed to deal with a Russian government that ignored its own written pledge not to invade.


The paper does a fair job of reciting what Chomsky said.. I note that @Donarious , the so called "Canadian" pro fascist pacifist said exactly what Chomsky said regarding "how bad the United Sates has been". The problem with using the "they do it too" argument is, if it's morally wrong for the US to invade and occupy other countries, how does one use that to justify what Russia is doing? Isn't that line of argument just a rhetorical fallacy?

After detailing Chomsky's and Fletchers debate, the author steps in with his own conclusion:

consider what isn’t in Chomsky’s remarks. For one, the words “solidarity with Ukraine” are absent. He never suggests we in the Left ask Ukrainians what they want, whether they think they’re American pawns or whether want to fight on to defend their country. Chomsky, does not mention what any Ukrainian is thinking, and he never talks about weapons, whether Ukraine has any right to get weapons to defend itself.

Noam Chomsky’s exercise in realpolitik is depressing. He should know that the Left should not be involved defending notions of spheres of influence or geopolitics.
 

Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
NATO is an agreement between nations to cooperate in the defense of each member. It is not aggressive. If Ukraine wants to join NATO and NATO members all agree then Russia has zero to say on the matter. NATO does not threaten Russia. Russia does not threaten NATO, it just threatens small neighbors who want to join NATO. I wonder why that is?

You are circling your wagons around protecting Russian fascism. I suggest you reconsider.
My God that sounds like a Union!
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Along those lines, earlier you said that if nobody had helped them, Ukraine would have to pursue diplomatic options. What do those look like to you? As you say here, Russia isn't going to stop until they conquer the nation, that's their goal. What diplomatic options existed.

You seem to be indicating that if you get attacked, you should appease the attacker instead of defending yourself.
not just seems: he is plainly saying that Ukraine should cede territory in order to save his from fallout.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member

Dear Professor Chomsky,

We are a group of Ukrainian academic economists who were grieved by a series of your recent interviews and commentaries on the Russian war on Ukraine. We believe that your public opinion on this matter is counter-productive to bringing an end to the unjustified Russian invasion of Ukraine and all the deaths and suffering it has brought into our home country.

Having familiarized ourselves with the body of your interviews on this matter, we noticed several recurring fallacies in your line of argument. In what follows, we wish to point out these patterns to you, alongside our brief response:

Pattern #1: Denying Ukraine’s sovereign integrity


In your interview to Jeremy Scahill at The Intercept from April 14, 2022 you claimed: “The fact of the matter is Crimea is off the table. We may not like it. Crimeans apparently do like it.” We wish to bring to your attention several historical facts:

First, Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014 has violated the Budapest memorandum (in which it promised to respect and protect Ukrainian borders, including Crimea), the Treaty on Friendship, Partnership and Cooperation (which it signed with Ukraine in 1997 with the same promises), and, according to the order of the UN International Court of Justice, it violated the international law.

Second, “Crimeans” is not an ethnicity or a cohesive group of people—but Crimean Tatars are. These are the indigenous people of Crimea, who were deported by Stalin in 1944 (and were able to come back home only after the USSR fell apart), and were forced to flee again in 2014 when Russia occupied Crimea. Of those who stayed, dozens have been persecuted, jailed on false charges and missing, probably dead.

Third, if by “liking” you refer to the outcome of the Crimean “referendum” on March 16, 2014, please note that this “referendum” was held at gunpoint and declared invalid by the General Assembly of the United Nations. At the same time, the majority of voters in Crimea supported Ukraine’s independence in 1991.

Pattern #2: Treating Ukraine as an American pawn on a geo-political chessboard

Whether willingly or unwillingly, your interviews insinuate that Ukrainians are fighting with Russians because the US instigated them to do so, that Euromaidan happened because the US tried to detach Ukraine from the Russian sphere of influence, etc. Such an attitude denies the agency of Ukraine and is a slap in the face to millions of Ukrainians who are risking their lives for the desire to live in a free country. Simply put, have you considered the possibility that Ukrainians would like to detach from the Russian sphere of influence due to a history of genocide, cultural oppression, and constant denial of the right to self-determination?

Pattern #3. Suggesting that Russia was threatened by NATO

In your interviews, you are eager to bring up the alleged promise by [US Secretary of State] James Baker and President George H.W. Bush to Gorbachev that, if he agreed to allow a unified Germany to rejoin NATO, the US would ensure that NATO would move “not one inch eastward.” First, please note that the historicity of this promise is highly contested among scholars, although Russia has been active in promoting it. The premise is that NATO’s eastward expansion left Putin with no other choice but to attack. But the reality is different. Eastern European states joined, and Ukraine and Georgia aspired to join NATO, in order to defend themselves from Russian imperialism. They were right in their aspirations, given that Russia did attack Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014. Moreover, current requests by Finland and Sweden to join NATO came in direct response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, consistent with NATO expansion being a consequence of Russian imperialism, and not vice versa.

In addition, we disagree with the notion that sovereign nations shouldn’t be making alliances based on the will of their people because of disputed verbal promises made by James Baker and George H.W. Bush to Gorbachev.

Pattern #4. Stating that the US isn’t any better than Russia

While you admittedly call the Russian invasion of Ukraine a “war crime,” it appears to us that you cannot do so without naming in the same breath all of the past atrocities committed by the US abroad (e.g., in Iraq or Afghanistan) and, ultimately, spending most of your time discussing the latter. As economists, we are not in a position to correct your historical metaphors and, needless to say, we condemn the unjustified killings of civilians by any power in the past. However, not bringing Putin up on war crime charges at the International Criminal Court in the Hague just because some past leader did not receive similar treatment would be the wrong conclusion to draw from any historical analogy. In contrast, we argue that prosecuting Putin for the war crimes that are being deliberately committed in Ukraine would set an international precedent for the world leaders attempting to do the same in the future.

Pattern #5. Whitewashing Putin’s goals for invading Ukraine

In your interviews, you go to great lengths to rationalize Putin’s goals of “demilitarization” and “neutralization” of Ukraine. Please note that, in his TV address from February 24, 2022, marking the beginning of the war, the verbatim goal declared by Putin for this “military operation” is to “denazify” Ukraine. This concept builds on his long pseudo-historical article from July 2021, denying Ukraine’s existence and claiming that Ukrainians were not a nation. As elaborated in the “denazification manual” published by the Russian official press agency RIA Novosti, a “Nazi” is simply a human being who self-identifies as Ukrainian, the establishment of a Ukrainian state thirty years ago was the “Nazification of Ukraine,” and any attempt to build such a state has to be a “Nazi” act. According to this genocide handbook, denazification implies a military defeat, purging, and population-level “re-education.”“Demilitarization” and “neutralization” imply the same goal—without weapons Ukraine will not be able to defend itself, and Russia will reach its long-term goal of destroying Ukraine.

Pattern #6. Assuming that Putin is interested in a diplomatic solution

All of us very much hoped for a cease-fire and a negotiated settlement, which could have saved many human lives. Yet, we find it preposterous how you repeatedly assign the blame for not reaching this settlement to Ukraine (for not offering Putin some “escape hatch”) or the US (for supposedly insisting on the military rather than diplomatic solution) instead of the actual aggressor, who has repeatedly and intentionally bombed civilians, maternity wards, hospitals, and humanitarian corridors during those very “negotiations.” Given the escalatory rhetoric (cited above) of the Russian state media, Russia’s goal is erasure and subjugation of Ukraine, not a “diplomatic solution.”

Pattern #7. Advocating that yielding to Russian demands is the way to avert the nuclear war

Since the Russian invasion, Ukraine lives in a constant nuclear threat, not just due to being a prime target for Russian nuclear missiles but also due to the Russian occupation of Ukrainian nuclear power plants.

But what are the alternatives to fighting for freedom? Unconditional surrender and then elimination of Ukrainians off the face of the Earth (see above)? Have you ever wondered why President Zelenskyy, with the overwhelming support of the Ukrainian people, is pleading with Western leaders to provide heavy weapons despite the potential threat of nuclear escalation? The answer to this question is not “Because of Uncle Sam,” but rather due to the fact that Russian war crimes in Bucha and many other Ukrainian cities and villages have shown that living under Russian occupation is a tangible “hell on earth” happening right now, requiring immediate action.

Arguably, any concessions to Russia will not reduce the probability of a nuclear war but lead to escalation. If Ukraine falls, Russia may attack other countries (Moldova, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Finland or Sweden) and can also use its nuclear blackmail to push the rest of Europe into submission. And Russia is not the only nuclear power in the world. Other countries, such as China, India, Pakistan, and North Korea are watching. Just imagine what will happen if they learn that nuclear powers can get whatever they want using nuclear blackmail.

Professor Chomsky, we hope you will consider the facts and re-evaluate your conclusions. If you truly value Ukrainian lives as you claim to, we would like to kindly ask you to refrain from adding further fuel to the Russian war machine by spreading views very much akin to Russian propaganda.

Should you wish to engage further on any of the above-mentioned points, we are always open to discussion.

Kind regards,

Bohdan Kukharskyy, City University of New York
Anastassia Fedyk, University of California, Berkeley
Yuriy Gorodnichenko, University of California, Berkeley
Ilona Sologoub, VoxUkraine NGO
 

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
Along those lines, earlier you said that if nobody had helped them, Ukraine would have to pursue diplomatic options. What do those look like to you? As you say here, Russia isn't going to stop until they conquer the nation, that's their goal. What diplomatic options existed.

You seem to be indicating that if you get attacked, you should appease the attacker instead of defending yourself.
How very…un-American: siding with bullies goes against our national character (or, as we used to say, “we will not negotiate with terrorists”)
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
How very…un-American: siding with bullies goes against our national character (or, as we used to say, “we will not negotiate with terrorists”)
I think the guy said he was Canadian. Between that dude and Alanis morrisette, you got a lot to answer for canada!

It is something where I'm like "dude...what does that say about the content of your character" when these people come in and say that the Ukrainians should have just shown their belly and hoped for the best.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I think the guy said he was Canadian. Between that dude and Alanis morrisette, you got a lot to answer for canada!

It is something where I'm like "dude...what does that say about the content of your character" when these people come in and say that the Ukrainians should have just shown their belly and hoped for the best.
Alanis, pshaw. Behold true blasphemy.

 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
We all joined the tribe and are enforcing group discipline, perfectly normal, contrarian views will be ridiculed and challenged as yours have been. You now find yourself getting torn to pieces by a pack. However, your main problem is you don't have a moral or ethical leg to stand on and are forced into the position of defending the indefensible, Putin, Russia and fascism in general. You deny the principle of self-determination as a foundation of international law and are ignoring the UN charter which stopped wars of imperial aggression and ended empires in general, including the British. Trump wants to get away with breaking the law in the states and is threatening dire consequences to the country if he is indicted and sent to prison, fuck him and fuck Putin too.
I think you are mistaking a disarticulation of faulty reason as something about group loyalty. Contrarian views will be challenged, yes, but not ridiculed unless the bearer resorts to bad logic or will not reference questionable premises.

Contrarian views that pass the fire assay have been and are welcomed.
You slander us, sir.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I think the guy said he was Canadian. Between that dude and Alanis morrisette, you got a lot to answer for canada!

It is something where I'm like "dude...what does that say about the content of your character" when these people come in and say that the Ukrainians should have just shown their belly and hoped for the best.
Justin Bieber is enough of a burden to bear. Take heart, you are not alone, we have them too, the difference is they don't have a political party to call home and wander the wilderness confused like this poor fellow. Once they gathered in a convoy and occupied Ottawa briefly, but Americans paid for the party including a hot tub in front of the parliament building. Where they would sit drinking beer or Tims coffee and whine about the dictatorship they were living under, FREEDUM!
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I think you are mistaking a disarticulation of faulty reason as something about group loyalty. Contrarian views will be challenged, yes, but not ridiculed unless the bearer resorts to bad logic or will not reference questionable premises.

Contrarian views that pass the fire assay have been and are welcomed.
You slander us, sir.

All groups operate the same way, human psychology and the propensities of tribalism, ridicule is regularly used to shoot down bad ideas. This fellow was deliberately contrarian, that was the whole point and disingenuous, never made a positive point or suggestion and just bitched about things that are not supported by evidence and of course ad hominrn attacks. Most here joined the Ukrainian tribe and that includes the usual dehumanization of the foe, Ukrainians call them orcs. I joined myself and proudly wear the war paint, feathers and the bone in my nose! :lol: Americans call them Magats or fascists BTW and the tribal lines in America are stark. There is nothing wrong with it, it's just the way humans behave, when we are not aspiring to something higher.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
All groups operate the same way, human psychology and the propensities of tribalism, ridicule is regularly used to shoot down bad ideas. This fellow was deliberately contrarian, that was the whole point and disingenuous, never made a positive point or suggestion and just bitched about things that are not supported by evidence and of course ad hominrn attacks. Most here joined the Ukrainian tribe and that includes the usual dehumanization of the foe, Ukrainians call them orcs. I joined myself and proudly wear the war paint, feathers and the bone in my nose! :lol: Americans call them Magats or fascists BTW and the tribal lines in America are stark. There is nothing wrong with it, it's just the way humans behave, when we are not aspiring to something higher.
I distinguish between contrarian, which can be legitimate, and oppositional-defiant, which more closely matches what you are saying.

I have called you more than once on issues like dehumanization and bloodlust. You will never hear me call the Russians orcs. I will aspire to something … more likely to stand later dispassionate review than you say here. So yeah um no; I choose solitude if the group demands loyalty before honor. My tribe had some bad experiences with that.

1665376729477.jpeg
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I distinguish between contrarian, which can be legitimate, and oppositional-defiant, which more closely matches what you are saying.

I have called you more than once on issues like dehumanization and bloodlust. You will never hear me call the Russians orcs. I will aspire to something … more likely to stand later dispassionate review than you say here. So yeah um no; I choose solitude if the group demands loyalty before honor. My tribe had some bad experiences with that.

View attachment 5210435
Tribalism is neither good nor bad, just an evolutionary fact. Tribalism can be Trumpers or a cult, or it can be like we see in Ukrainian society. We just need to know we are operating under its influence to begin to deal with it, to be mindful of its propensities. We tend to attribute conditions and causes to perceived allies and friends and perceive our enemies as innately bad. We increase empathy for allies and decrease it for foes. We should love our enemies and understand them, so we can more effectively defeat them or forgive them.
 
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