War

[DIY-HP-LED]

They aren't even officially NATO members, but Finland and Sweden are armed to the teeth and stepping up to the plate for Ukraine in a big way. They see the chance to finish off the bear once and for all, by the time the Ukrainians are finished with the fuckers they won't have the ability to attack anybody. There will be plenty of time to restock and resupply with even more modern arms benefitting from the experience gained in Ukraine. All of Vlad's neighbors are gonna be well armed, much by stuff given to Ukraine that they will pass on when they rearm with consistent standardized equipment after the war and some Russian money.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616540299744120832

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

That’s five years’ production on the Caesar

France gave more and I think others use them too. They won't need them after the Ukrainians kick the shit out of the Russians and until they do, any Russian forces will be tied down there. Plenty of time for them to rearm with the next gen weapons, Russia will be fucked for a decade at least.

 

[cannabineer]

They aren't even officially NATO members, but Finland and Sweden are armed to the teeth and stepping up to the plate for Ukraine in a big way. They see the chance to finish off the bear once and for all, by the time the Ukrainians are finished with the fuckers they won't have the ability to attack anybody. There will be plenty of time to restock and resupply with even more modern arms benefitting from the experience gained in Ukraine. All of Vlad's neighbors are gonna be well armed, much by stuff given to Ukraine that they will pass on when they rearm with consistent standardized equipment after the war and some Russian money.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616540299744120832

shame our Congresscritters are immune to shame, while the so-called lesser powers step up.

 

[injinji]

. . . . . . . .Poland and others might just say fuck you to Germany, give the tanks anyway and buy American or other Europeans for replacements. . . . . . . .

My understanding is they (Germany) are going to approve all requests for 3rd party transfers.

 

[Sativied]

all i can say with this...is WOW

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616149099514073088

and instead of 1 patriot battery...it's 2....

I count 3 in that list but then the 3rd from NL isn't actually certain yet. Zelensky already thanked our PM, which is good as it keeps the pressure on, but the only promise was considering giving it. Confronted by dutch reporters he gave a vague political answer as he does best. Mind you this is the same guy who is notorious for not keeping promises and frequently likened to and depicted as Pinocchio. So yeah, 2 for now, 1 from US 1 from Germany (or did you refer to one of those being two?).

I count 4. NL going to provide 2 (of the 4 we have of which one is out of service).

Netherlands to provide two Patriot launchers to Ukraine

Ukraine will receive two Patriot air defense missile system launchers from the Netherlands. — Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

The suggestion european nato members and/or Germany is not united against Ukraine is a social media fantasy. Way too easy to bash Germany and Scholz. There are obvious historical reasons which have nothing to do with a lack of support or unity.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I count 3 in that list but then the 3rd from NL isn't actually certain yet. Zelensky already thanked our PM, which is good as it keeps the pressure on, but the only promise was considering giving it. Confronted by dutch reporters he gave a vague political answer as he does best. Mind you this is the same guy who is notorious for not keeping promises and frequently likened to and depicted as Pinocchio. So yeah, 2 for now, 1 from US 1 from Germany (or did you refer to one of those being two?).

I count 4. NL going to provide 2 (of the 4 we have of which one is out of service).

Netherlands to provide two Patriot launchers to Ukraine

Ukraine will receive two Patriot air defense missile system launchers from the Netherlands. — Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

The suggestion european nato members and/or Germany is not united against Ukraine is a social media fantasy. Way too easy to bash Germany and Scholz. There are obvious historical reasons which have nothing to do with a lack of support or unity.

Scholz needs to forget the past and get with the current reality, whatever his reasons it looks bad and appears to be causing some division. Germany has been helping a lot in other ways though, but has been consistently seen as reluctant to provide needed arms and many are exasperated with them, particularly the Poles. They helped create the situation with their dependency on Russian energy and appeasement of Putin's past aggression.

There is but one way for this war to end and that is with the defeat and ejection of Russia from Ukraine and that will mean breaking their army, economy and ability to project power. It will mean the end of Putin, because peace won't be possible with him still around, he's all in and can't back down or out. Breaking Russia is the only long term security Ukraine and Europe has and they will be fucked for a decade by the time the Ukrainians are done with them. I think the next domino to fall will be Belarus, one way or another and that might finish off whatever Vlad has left. Historically, losing wars seems to bring about political change in Russia and it looks like it might happen again. The world won't miss Vlad or his cronies much and it will be a better place for it.

 

[Sativied]

Scholz needs to forget the past

Lost me at forget the past. Germany should never ever forget. It's a democracy, Scholz needs to consider the will of the people, who also should never forget. Looks bad to who? People on social media? Americans eager to go all in? Leaders and people in western europe with more than half a brain fully respect it's a very very tough decision and putting pressure on ally Germany by shaming them is childish inappropriate and counterproductive, there are much better ways to do that effectively, without them having to forget the past. "Appears to be causing some division"... on social media where everyone wants to have/parrot a popular take. Like I said, there are obvious historical reasons which have nothing to do with a lack of support or unity - they are not causing any division.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I count 3 in that list but then the 3rd from NL isn't actually certain yet. Zelensky already thanked our PM, which is good as it keeps the pressure on, but the only promise was considering giving it. Confronted by dutch reporters he gave a vague political answer as he does best. Mind you this is the same guy who is notorious for not keeping promises and frequently likened to and depicted as Pinocchio. So yeah, 2 for now, 1 from US 1 from Germany (or did you refer to one of those being two?).

I count 4. NL going to provide 2 (of the 4 we have of which one is out of service).

Netherlands to provide two Patriot launchers to Ukraine

Ukraine will receive two Patriot air defense missile system launchers from the Netherlands. — Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

The suggestion european nato members and/or Germany is not united against Ukraine is a social media fantasy. Way too easy to bash Germany and Scholz. There are obvious historical reasons which have nothing to do with a lack of support or unity.

not that there aren't any other threats in Europe, but really, who do you have to defend yourselves against, EXCEPT russia?
If Ukraine is keeping them busy, every country in Europe that isn't already fighting with each other should be dumping every spare peice of equipment they have into this fight. Ukraine is proxy for the entire democratic world, they're doing a damned fine job, and they deserve the support of every country that ever has or ever will face the threat of russian aggression.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Lost me at forget the past. Germany should never ever forget. It's a democracy, Scholz needs to consider the will of the people, who also should never forget. Looks bad to who? People on social media? Americans eager to go all in? Leaders and people in western europe with more than half a brain fully respect it's a very very tough decision and putting pressure on ally Germany by shaming them is childish inappropriate and counterproductive, there are much better ways to do that effectively, without them having to forget the past. "Appears to be causing some division"... on social media where everyone wants to have/parrot a popular take. Like I said, there are obvious historical reasons which have nothing to do with a lack of support or unity - they are not causing any division.

Germany is a liberal democracy and living with the past on it's back is not helpful moving forward, acknowledge it yes, teach it too, but it is irrelevant to the current situation. The news reflects what is coming out of the mouths of European politicians, if Germany wants to wallow in the past and atone for it, then Poland wants to talk about reparations for ww2, or at least some of their politicians do. Ridicule and shame have been used for time immemorial to bring members of a community into line, when they don't feel the heat there is trouble. Apparently Germany still needs moral and ethical guidance to find it's way in the community of Europe.

 

[CCGNZ]

Lost me at forget the past. Germany should never ever forget. It's a democracy, Scholz needs to consider the will of the people, who also should never forget. Looks bad to who? People on social media? Americans eager to go all in? Leaders and people in western europe with more than half a brain fully respect it's a very very tough decision and putting pressure on ally Germany by shaming them is childish inappropriate and counterproductive, there are much better ways to do that effectively, without them having to forget the past. "Appears to be causing some division"... on social media where everyone wants to have/parrot a popular take. Like I said, there are obvious historical reasons which have nothing to do with a lack of support or unity - they are not causing any division.

I certainly can dig Scholz's reluctance in seeing German armor smashing through eastern Europe,and there is some German in my ancestry though only 25% and as an adoptee I have no idea what that encompasses. I can however say that Germany bares a guilt that can't simply be forgotten,we can't be hypocritical here,If Germany were to shed its guilt we'd be in their face about the past and if they pay homage to it we say get over it. Scholz should take a median position and let all countries possessing Leopard tanks turn them over while keeping Germany's stock (which includes the most advanced models)out of the war. I've seen estimates that there are almost 2K Leopard tanks in the inventories of European countries excepting Germany's arsena

Germany is a liberal democracy and living with the past on it's back is not helpful moving forward, acknowledge it yes, teach it too, but it is irrelevant to the current situation. The news reflects what is coming out of the mouths of European politicians, if Germany wants to wallow in the past and atone for it, then Poland wants to talk about reparations for ww2, or at least some of their politicians do. Ridicule and shame have been used for time immemorial to bring members of a community into line, when they don't feel the heat there is trouble. Apparently Germany still needs moral and ethical guidance to find it's way in the community of Europe.

I believe that Germany will need another century to really shed its guilt,it's so vile and lurid that I can understand their reluctance w/that history as a burden. They have become a leader in Europe by emphasizing their good qualities while locking up their bad,if the Germans had the largest army in Europe you can be damn sure their would be many uneasy nations in that neighborhood. So their way forward has been to be a complimentary nation in military affairs, the "happy medium" is for them to loosen the export controls on the Leopard tanks and let those European countries eager to give them proceed w/ that.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I could point out a kinship between a big truck and a hardness testing device. Thank goodness I’m too refined to do such a thing.

fortunately, i am not at all refined.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I certainly can dig Scholz's reluctance in seeing German armor smashing through eastern Europe,and there is some German in my ancestry though only 25% and as an adoptee I have no idea what that encompasses. I can however say that Germany bares a guilt that can't simply be forgotten,we can't be hypocritical here,If Germany were to shed its guilt we'd be in their face about the past and if they pay homage to it we say get over it. Scholz should take a median position and let all countries possessing Leopard tanks turn them over while keeping Germany's stock (which includes the most advanced models)out of the war. I've seen estimates that there are almost 2K Leopard tanks in the inventories of European countries excepting Germany's arsena

I believe that Germany will need another century to really shed its guilt,it's so vile and lurid that I can understand their reluctance w/that history as a burden. They have become a leader in Europe by emphasizing their good qualities while locking up their bad,if the Germans had the largest army in Europe you can be damn sure their would be many uneasy nations in that neighborhood. So their way forward has been to be a complimentary nation in military affairs, the "happy medium" is for them to loosen the export controls on the Leopard tanks and let those European countries eager to give them proceed w/ that.

German armor smashing the forces of fascism should be an uplifting spectacle to Germany, not an echo of their past shame.
Defending freedom, and an allies right to free self determination should be cathartic, should show Germany that they're past that history, and are now fighting for freedom and democracy, not against it.

 

[cannabineer]

I certainly can dig Scholz's reluctance in seeing German armor smashing through eastern Europe,and there is some German in my ancestry though only 25% and as an adoptee I have no idea what that encompasses. I can however say that Germany bares a guilt that can't simply be forgotten,we can't be hypocritical here,If Germany were to shed its guilt we'd be in their face about the past and if they pay homage to it we say get over it. Scholz should take a median position and let all countries possessing Leopard tanks turn them over while keeping Germany's stock (which includes the most advanced models)out of the war. I've seen estimates that there are almost 2K Leopard tanks in the inventories of European countries excepting Germany's arsena

I believe that Germany will need another century to really shed its guilt,it's so vile and lurid that I can understand their reluctance w/that history as a burden. They have become a leader in Europe by emphasizing their good qualities while locking up their bad,if the Germans had the largest army in Europe you can be damn sure their would be many uneasy nations in that neighborhood. So their way forward has been to be a complimentary nation in military affairs, the "happy medium" is for them to loosen the export controls on the Leopard tanks and let those European countries eager to give them proceed w/ that.

I suggest that so much time has passed that the generation with direct experience is passed on, and to the general populace the event is something from history class. The attendant guilt is a shimmery translucent thing on the trailing horizon.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I suggest that so much time has passed that the generation with direct experience is passed on, and to the general populace the event is something from history class. The attendant guilt is a shimmery translucent thing on the trailing horizon.

ask the average American how they feel about the treatment of the American Indian...they'll tell you terrible, but it's the rare one that will lay claim to any blame themselves...

 

[cannabineer]

ask the average American how they feel about the treatment of the American Indian...they'll tell you terrible, but it's the rare one that will lay claim to any blame themselves...

The one exception is our stubborn memory of the Civil War, and the institution (chattel slavery) that powered it. I suspect that has been kept a lively grievance because the warring sides had different economies. There was no lost-money motive like that either in Germany or in our Western imperialism, at least among the side that wrote the history.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I certainly can dig Scholz's reluctance in seeing German armor smashing through eastern Europe,and there is some German in my ancestry though only 25% and as an adoptee I have no idea what that encompasses. I can however say that Germany bares a guilt that can't simply be forgotten,we can't be hypocritical here,If Germany were to shed its guilt we'd be in their face about the past and if they pay homage to it we say get over it. Scholz should take a median position and let all countries possessing Leopard tanks turn them over while keeping Germany's stock (which includes the most advanced models)out of the war. I've seen estimates that there are almost 2K Leopard tanks in the inventories of European countries excepting Germany's arsena

I believe that Germany will need another century to really shed its guilt,it's so vile and lurid that I can understand their reluctance w/that history as a burden. They have become a leader in Europe by emphasizing their good qualities while locking up their bad,if the Germans had the largest army in Europe you can be damn sure their would be many uneasy nations in that neighborhood. So their way forward has been to be a complimentary nation in military affairs, the "happy medium" is for them to loosen the export controls on the Leopard tanks and let those European countries eager to give them proceed w/ that.

We must all live with our good and bad natures, Germany is no different than America in this regard, America has much to atone for too, according to some people. There will be no German boots on the ground, just their products and they are already giving plenty of arms to Ukraine anyway. They can't continue to use eastern Europe as a battle buffer between them and Russia, their recent large military expansion kinda proves they left part of their past behind. They can join in the fight for liberal democracy or wallow in the past, there is a consensus in the community of liberal democracies about this and they are not behaving as allies should. Their excuses are not adequate either, given their role as an agent of cause, increasing dependency on Russian energy while green lighting and appeasing Putin's aggression in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. They supported the enslavement of millions of Ukrainians to a fascist regime that is now slaughtering them on the battlefield in the name of Russian imperialism and economic dominance. They did it out of greed and self interest and threw Ukraine under the bus for a decade, so cough up some fucking tanks!

 

[Fogdog]

It this foot dragging or confidence that Russia has lost the initiative and Ukraine can take its time to prepare to mount a more complete offensive? Perhaps ending this mess? This is what the Allies did when they invaded France on D Day. By the end of 1943, the Nazis had lost the initiative and could only wait for the Allies to strike at their positions in France. The Allies geared up and when all was ready, moved at the time and place of their choosing. Or is it WW1 all over again?

U.S. officials advise Ukraine to wait on offensive, official says

The unnamed official said the United States was holding fast to its decision not to provide Abrams tanks to Ukraine at this time, and that a major counter-offensive against Russian forces should wait until weaponry and training are in place.

www.reuters.com

 

[cannabineer]

It this foot dragging or confidence that Russia has lost the initiative and Ukraine can take its time to prepare to mount an offensive that will shatter Russian lines defense, perhaps ending this mess? This is what the Allies did when they invaded France on D Day. The Allies geared up and when all was ready, moved at the time and place of their choosing. Or is it WW1 all over again?

U.S. officials advise Ukraine to wait on offensive, official says

The unnamed official said the United States was holding fast to its decision not to provide Abrams tanks to Ukraine at this time, and that a major counter-offensive against Russian forces should wait until weaponry and training are in place.

www.reuters.com

Not sure.
But I’m wagering it’s good (or at least well-founded) advice.
The big factor imo is that between satellites and other ISR assets, the US knows what is happening on both sides of the front.
We’ve also heard that the Russians are setting up for an offensive, which means that they are unavoidably moving precious assets (personnel and materiel) close to Ukrainian offensive weapons. So I could (from my worry-free vantage of nearly unspoiled ignorance) make an argument that by waiting for a time between Russians staging and starting the offensive, Ukrainian forces can use their limited supply of rockets, shells and airpower to greatest effect.

Per the news, the meat grinder in and around Bakhmut is consuming more Russians than Ukrainians. But they could still be below the necessary ratio of casualties. Russia has a proven capacity to find fighters and more fighters when the best Western experts of the last two centuries have declared them exhausted. So that is a thing I really hope “our side” is fully figuring into the war calculus.

In the meantime, Government, stop complaining and send main battle tanks! And take a hint from the Dutch offering F-16s!

 

[Fogdog]

We must all live with our good and bad natures, Germany is no different than America in this regard, America has much to atone for too, according to some people. There will be no German boots on the ground, just their products and they are already giving plenty of arms to Ukraine anyway. They can't continue to use eastern Europe as a battle buffer between them and Russia, their recent large military expansion kinda proves they left part of their past behind. They can join in the fight for liberal democracy or wallow in the past, there is a consensus in the community of liberal democracies about this and they are not behaving as allies should. Their excuses are not adequate either, given their role as an agent of cause, increasing dependency on Russian energy while green lighting and appeasing Putin's aggression in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. They supported the enslavement of millions of Ukrainians to a fascist regime that is now slaughtering them on the battlefield in the name of Russian imperialism and economic dominance. They did it out of greed and self interest and threw Ukraine under the bus for a decade, so cough up some fucking tanks!

I think maybe there is some sort of deal making going on behind the scenes between Germany and the US. The reasons Scholz put up make no sense. So he put up delays in delivering Leopard tanks to Ukraine as leverage.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

It this foot dragging or confidence that Russia has lost the initiative and Ukraine can take its time to prepare to mount an offensive that will shatter Russian lines defense, perhaps ending this mess? This is what the Allies did when they invaded France on D Day. The Allies geared up and when all was ready, moved at the time and place of their choosing. Or is it WW1 all over again?

U.S. officials advise Ukraine to wait on offensive, official says

The unnamed official said the United States was holding fast to its decision not to provide Abrams tanks to Ukraine at this time, and that a major counter-offensive against Russian forces should wait until weaponry and training are in place.

www.reuters.com

Everything feels like foot dragging after this long, but there is a valid argument to be made, we're sending them some fairly sophisticated new equipment that they won't be able to take full advantage of without the proper training.
Some of those armored vehicles aren't that great for combat, but a properly equipped squad of Bradleys, trained to work together, can be tank killers, circling and firing at weak spots that their 120mm cannons can chew holes through.
It seems like they're focusing on Bahkmut with no real goal in mind, except to deny it to the russians. All that effort could be channeled into something with real value, like driving the russians out of range of Kyiv, and cutting their forces in Crimea off by retaking Mariupol.

But i'm an office chair general, and I'm aware that I'll never be aware of how much information I don't have...