War

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
and this has what to do with driving twenty tons of high explosive through a tunnel?
They would need Chinese help and probably a contractor to create the tunnel in the first place and probably Chinese money too. In any case I don't think they have the time to do it either, while under drone and missile attack, and Ukraine will take Crimea anyway. It is desperation clutching at straws, once the bridge is gone, they are screwed, and they have been targeting their landing ships in the region for a reason.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
They would need Chinese help and probably a contractor to create the tunnel in the first place and probably Chinese money too. In any case I don't think they have the time to do it either, while under drone and missile attack, and Ukraine will take Crimea anyway. It is desperation clutching at straws, once the bridge is gone, they are screwed, and they have been targeting their landing ships in the region for a reason.
Hamas would probably do it cheaper and have lots of experienced diggers. :)

:peace:
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
and this has what to do with driving twenty tons of high explosive through a tunnel?
The Russians are also attempting to build a rail line across southern Ukraine to supply troops in the south, since the existing rail connections have been cut off and a lot of supplies are coming the long way around through Crimea. Ukraine is about to take possession of US rocket launched glide bombs with a very long range, so much for the coastal railroad they are building in the south.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
They would need Chinese help and probably a contractor to create the tunnel in the first place and probably Chinese money too. In any case I don't think they have the time to do it either, while under drone and missile attack, and Ukraine will take Crimea anyway. It is desperation clutching at straws, once the bridge is gone, they are screwed, and they have been targeting their landing ships in the region for a reason.
That makes partial sense. However I suggest that the mobsters who would bid on the tunnel do not want to surrender a cut to the nine-ton gorilla to their southeast.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I wonder how much of the military/intelligence "black budget" are they sending to Ukraine for drone support. When it comes to FPV and commercial drones a few million bucks goes a long way, then there are all the volunteer organizations raising funds too. If we can't give them artillery shells on time, we can arrange to ship mass produced drone parts within days or weeks. When they say Ukraine is losing 10,000 drones a month or whatever, they are probably also counting the suicide ones too, both long range and FPV.

 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
Vlad will have to pay the Chinese up front in gold! Russia has been complaining about China, seems Xi wants to chart a middle course and avoid conflict since they are having serious financial and other issues at home, trouble with the west would just compound their problems. So, they are careful about the trade they do with the Russians.
So much for their "special relationship", NOT,"the dollar,always the fkn dollar",(Joe Peschi,"Casino") sums that up.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
So much for their "special relationship", NOT,"the dollar,always the fkn dollar",(Joe Peschi,"Casino") sums that up.
Have ya noticed that since Biden came to power China hasn't been doing too well and companies are moving production out of the place to their Asian tiger neighbors, who feel threatened by them. No sanctions, no tariffs, businesses just seemed to go away. Add to that the financial and demographic issues of their own creation and a little over reaction to covid and you've got an economy on the rocks. They want to break into the global auto market with the transition to EVs and have been preparing for years, Biden building out capacity in America and the EU doing the same for batteries, solar and other essential things, threatens that and tariffs or sanctions would kill it.

The Chinese are a perfect example of the power of capitalism in the right culture with the right conditions, they had 40 years of communism and misery and 40 years of capitalism, spectacular growth and development. Being part of the global economic system has been very good for China and they don't want to fuck up the goose that is laying the golden egg. Russia is not worth it, and they do 20 times as much trade with the allies (50 of them) than with Russia. They can still sell them lots of stuff legally, consumer goods etc, just not military stuff.
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
I wonder how much of the military/intelligence "black budget" are they sending to Ukraine for drone support. When it comes to FPV and commercial drones a few million bucks goes a long way, then there are all the volunteer organizations raising funds too. If we can't give them artillery shells on time, we can arrange to ship mass produced drone parts within days or weeks. When they say Ukraine is losing 10,000 drones a month or whatever, they are probably also counting the suicide ones too, both long range and FPV.

Drones and electronic warfare
Have ya noticed that since Biden came to power China hasn't been doing too well and companies are moving production out of the place to their Asian tiger neighbors, who feel threatened by them. No sanctions, no tariffs, businesses just seemed to go away. Add to that the financial and demographic issues of their own creation and a little over reaction to covid and you've got an economy on the rocks. They want to break into the global auto market with the transition to EVs and have been preparing for years, Biden building out capacity in America and the EU doing the same for batteries, solar and other essential things, threatens that and tariffs or sanctions would kill it.

The Chinese are a perfect example of the power of capitalism in the right culture with the right conditions, they had 40 years of communism and misery and 40 years of capitalism, spectacular growth and development. Being part of the global economic system has been very good for China and they don't want to fuck up the goose that is laying the golden egg. Russia is not worth it, and they do 20 times as much trade with the allies (50 of them) than with Russia. They can still sell them lots of stuff legally, consumer goods etc, just not military stuff.
Biden just doesn't get any credit,we are in a age where optics count more,his age is concerning and I'd like a more exp. VP in place(sacking Kamala would really burn him w/progressives though). I don't understand how FK head is leading in polls and can't comprehend how Biden doesn't come off as the ONLY choice regarding 2014 in spite of the concerns. Trump 2.0 would be a FK up of epic proportions, 4 yrs. of crony's pursuing all his whims of "retribution", far left burning things down in protest (who could blame them),Putin victorious in Ukraine,an immigration policy that would need the Statue of Liberty giving the middle finger, and every other unlawful fantasy that crosses his 7yr. old narcissistic mind carried out by suck ups and minions on a staff comprised solely to placate his every desire. Honestly don't know if the nation can survive as we know it.Americans must mobilize to vote,even those who are disappointed like the Af. American community over the last 4 yrs. have to get to the ballot box. Trump 2.0 is to depressing and chaotic and a circus of hateful folly to even contemplate,I hope Americans come to this realization,a vote for Joe isn't sexy or even exciting but it will go a long way towards our nations survival as we know it.It represents the biggest cross-road this nation has come upon in my lifetime in my mind.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
The more desperate the Russians become the shriller will be the calls for "peace" by their useful European idiots and magats who will go to the wall to cut funding because Donald wants it. I expect Donald to take time from his many legal problems to pontificate on the matter when Vald gets desperate enough. Joe, Nancy and Mitch locked in a lot of funding for Ukraine already and there is nothing the magats can do about that, just additional funding and the vote on it will split the republicans or their supporters. Funding for Israel means funding for Ukraine too and the republicans can't be seen as not supporting Israel, they are as locked into that with the religious nuts as with abortion and can't change their tune.

However you measure this war, by territory or by the number of troops lost and equipment destroyed, or political instability and support at home Russia is losing badly. The consequences of losing and getting kicked out of Ukraine in humiliation will be political in Russia and I would expect change, so does Vlad, which is why he is trying so hard. They are putting in maximum effort and losing ground while they grow steadily weaker. Having a quarter million troops in Ukraine won't help much if they can't be fed, fueled and supplied with munitions, or equipped to survive the winter in the field.



 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
The Economist requires a subscription, story is here (on Russia electronic jamming).

Reminds me of the WW2 battle of the beams and other electronic warfare methods that developed rapidly during the war. As I said before hobby radio transmitters and receivers are simple things, are small, and cost a few bucks each, for a few bucks more they could have a transceiver that handles both control and video with encryption and frequency shifting, etc. Right now, the Russians only need to jam a few narrow frequencies, like, 2.4 and 5.8gHz and 860 to 900Mhz or 480 MHz, the legal frequencies most of this stuff works on. There are plenty of techniques that can defeat jamming with the right generic transceiver used on a wide variety of drones and outputting standard control bus protocols. It would require modified transmitters and receivers on the ground too, but designs can be contracted, and mass produced at low costs. It is hard to jam a wide radio spectrum with any amount of power, especially at higher frequencies. The Ukrainians have the full radio spectrum at their disposal, and it is hard to jam it all and they have many talented electronic engineers.

Anything closer than 20km from the front would be vulnerable to regular 155mm artillery fire, no GPS required and MLRS has a longer reach. Since a jamming station is transmitting, hardened weapons can follow the signal to its source too, or it can be radio located for an artillery strike. It is good to know that the Russians can jam western weapons, I'm sure modifications are being planned or undertaken.
 
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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Reminds me of the WW2 battle of the beams and other electronic warfare methods that developed rapidly during the war. As I said before hobby radio transmitters and receivers are simple things, are small, and cost a few bucks each, for a few bucks more they could have a transceiver that handles both control and video with encryption and frequency shifting, etc. Right now, the Russians only need to jam a few narrow frequencies, like, 2.4 and 5.4gHz and 860 to 900Mhz or 480 MHz, the legal frequencies most of this stuff works on. There are plenty of techniques that can defeat jamming with the right generic transceiver used on a wide variety of drones and outputting standard control bus protocols. It would require modified transmitters and receivers on the ground too, but designs can be contracted, and mass produced at low costs. It is hard to jam a wide radio spectrum with any amount of power, especially at higher frequencies. The Ukrainians have the full radio spectrum at their disposal, and it is hard to jam it all and they have many talented electronic engineers.

Anything closer than 20km from the front would be vulnerable to regular 155mm artillery fire, no GPS required and MLRS has a longer reach. Since a jamming station is transmitting, hardened weapons can follow the signal to its source too, or it can be radio located for an artillery strike. It is good to know that the Russians can jam western weapons, I'm sure modifications are being planned or undertaken.
I would imagine the jamming stations to be priority targets, but I don’t hear about them being hit.

I wonder what the best available weapon[s system] would be to locate and destroy these jammers. I’m imagining Harm missiles from fighters like the F-16s that have been pledged, but that seems like a very expensive application for planes whose better use is in downing and deterring Russian air power, and providing close-in support to key assaults against, say, Tokmak and the road to Mariupol.

It’s obvious that sufficiently hard electronics are not off-the-shelf goods.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I would imagine the jamming stations to be priority targets, but I don’t hear about them being hit.

I wonder what the best available weapon[s system] would be to locate and destroy these jammers. I’m imagining Harm missiles from fighters like the F-16s that have been pledged, but that seems like a very expensive application for planes whose better use is in downing and deterring Russian air power, and providing close-in support to key assaults against, say, Tokmak and the road to Mariupol.

It’s obvious that sufficiently hard electronics are not off-the-shelf goods.
I'm sure someone in Ukraine already though of the ideas I expressed to make commercial drones more useful in such environments. It seems it would affect the DJI type drones used for surveillance and dropping grenades the most. FPV drones operate closer to the ground and front and shorter ranges, dunno if the Russians would risk a jamming truck so close to the front, regular 155mm artillery can reach out past their effective range and they can be radio located.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I'm sure someone in Ukraine already though of the ideas I expressed to make commercial drones more useful in such environments. It seems it would affect the DJI type drones used for surveillance and dropping grenades the most. FPV drones operate closer to the ground and front and shorter ranges, dunno if the Russians would risk a jamming truck so close to the front, regular 155mm artillery can reach out past their effective range and they can be radio located.
then why are they still active? If the bolded is correct, the jamming units would have a lifetime measured in hours. But they’re a persistent drag on drone operations and, more seriously, homing shells and missiles. The narrator specifically mentioned Jdam-ER and Excalibur, high-value weapons being rendered useless. Ukraine isn’t lacking motivation to wipe out the jammers.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
then why are they still active? If the bolded is correct, the jamming units would have a lifetime measured in hours. But they’re a persistent drag on drone operations and, more seriously, homing shells and missiles. The narrator specifically mentioned Jdam-ER and Excalibur, high-value weapons being rendered useless. Ukraine isn’t lacking motivation to wipe out the jammers.
It is a dynamic situation where one side can temporarily gain the upper hand, sometimes the solutions are just in communications between different groups. I do know a few basic facts about physics, they are likely using them to defend high value targets in the rear as opposed to the front where they can be easily radio located and are in range of regular artillery. They have a limited range of about 10km and 155mm artillery can reach out past 20km, no GPS required. It shows how much of a threat they think these drones and GPS guided munitions are that they are taking such measures. Battlefields are the best testing grounds for traditional weapons and innovated ones. If they radiate RF they can be radio located, destroying them from a distance is the only issue.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It is a dynamic situation where one side can temporarily gain the upper hand, sometimes the solutions are just in communications between different groups. I do know a few basic facts about physics, they are likely using them to defend high value targets in the rear as opposed to the front where they can be easily radio located and are in range of regular artillery. They have a limited range of about 10km and 155mm artillery can reach out past 20km, no GPS required. It shows how much of a threat they think these drones and GPS guided munitions are that they are taking such measures. Battlefields are the best testing grounds for traditional weapons and innovated ones. If they radiate RF they can be radio located, destroying them from a distance is the only issue.
The video directly contradicted this, if it is presenting fact. They’re close enough to the front to interfere heavily with short-range drone assaults.

If I heard correctly, this is a months-old problem, so not very dynamic.

They’d be good Atacms targets, but the vid claims the Atacms missiles are affected/diverted by the jamming.

I guess I’m confused by the durability of the Russian jammers in a hotly contested environment. It goes against what I thought I knew about Western capacities to deal with the threat. Maybe this is a gap in the military aid Ukraine is getting from Nato partners ~shrug-

Oh well. This seems to be emerging as one of the tough problems. As you said above, the West is paying attention. What we find out will likely be designed into the next generation of battlefield weapons, and upgrades for the guidance packages on current issue. It’s likely to be a big topic in the world’s war colleges over the next decades.
 
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